Open World Raiding, can we have it please?

I don't know what you have planned for 3.0+ but i hope that it will eventually include open world raid zone. FFXI has many of these zones and the latest content just added another one.

We do have them. It's odin and behemoth. People used to do them a lot back then...now not so much.

There's a reason it didn't work in XI and it won't work in XIV even more, you think the bots are annoying now? Wait until they're camping the open world raid to one-shot a boss as soon as it spawns. It would be completely pointless.

Bots camping open world raiding when they can get trained by other players? lol.

I still remember camping Fafhogg in XI then seeing a random taru from the sky and voking it. Yeah no, let's not have that again.

HNM system was kind of terrible.

I wouldn't mind seeing something like Sky or Sea in which other player group activities there didn't cause much inconvenience to other groups. But with Gold Saucer crowding when it launched, and the amount of people who pile into zones at times, I don't see it being very feasible in FF14.

I think I'd be good if you just gave me Nyzul Isle and blue mage again.

As much as I don't want to say it: Regardless of player feeling on this (neutral here btw), PS3 probably is gonna be limiting this for a bit. By 4.0 support for it will be dropped so we might see some upgrades that will make it eaiser for such content, but I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Bots camping open world raiding when they can get trained by other players? lol.

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Being dead doesn't negate the purpose of the bots. They're just there to look at things, not actually fight.

There ARE open world raids in this game, namely Behemoth, FATE!Odin, and all of the S rank hunts. There just aren't omgawesomecool prizes for them besides special currencies to spend on STUFF!
There are absolute horror stories regarding open world raids from older games like XI and EQ1, which became the foundation for how XIV decided to handle the system.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Being dead doesn't negate the purpose of the bots. They're just there to look at things, not actually fight.

There ARE open world raids in this game, namely Behemoth, FATE!Odin, and all of the S rank hunts. There just aren't omgawesomecool prizes for them besides special currencies to spend on STUFF!
There are absolute horror stories regarding open world raids from older games like XI and EQ1, which became the foundation for how XIV decided to handle the system.

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Eh...

Those are not raids. Those are Zergs.

Raids are like Coils, in a raid you are limited to how many people you can engage an encounter.

Behemoth and Odin are Open World Bosses, they are jokes compared to raids. Hunts are also not serious content because they are also zerg mobs.

This game has no Open World Raiding or Group Content at the moment, it never has had it.

I consider Behemoth and Odin just advanced Fates. Aka - you need more then a handful of players to do it. Hunt mobs are just solo mobs that well, offer no real fun or purpose to the game, they are just grind-fodder for appearance gear. Not really fun nore rewarding.

Now, Hunts would be quite a bit more fun if only a group or 1-3 players could do them, and only a few players could get the loot and the amount of tokens they gave were x10-x20 wha they are now.

http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wi...oth_%28FATE%29

In fact, the game describes the encounter itself as a fate and nothing more.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Eh, those are not raids. Those are Zergs.

Raids are like Coils, in a raid you are limited to how many people you can engage an encounter.

Behemoth and Odin are Open World Bosses, they are jokes compared to raids. Hunts are also not serious content because they are also zerg mobs.

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Then you can't HAVE open world raids without them being zergs, because the moment you limit how many people can engage the mob, it ceases to be an open world raid. It becomes the same as an instanced raid, just without the actual instance.
and seriously, zerging WAS the tactic used for most open world fights in old games. They all just had something to deal with zerg tactics (AOE damage, AOE status effects, adds, etc.)
Unless you use the leve system, at which point you may as well just use the instance system since you'll run into the additional problem of 8 different raid groups in the same small area fighting huge mobs, or waiting in line to fight huge mobs and lagging each other out.
Actually believe it or not the S rank bosses DO have tactics to them along with abilities that make them pretty interesting fights...it's just players CAN take the Zapp Brannigan approach so they WILL take the Zapp Brannigan approach.
And again this always happened in old EQ1 raids. I remember a Grummus raid where there were over 100 people being thrown at it to kill it. In fact most of those fights were no different than slightly scaled up versions of our S ranks, just usually with a lot more HP and/or attack power.
Unless you just want the competition added, which is precisely the reason instanced raids were created in the first place.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Then you can't HAVE open world raids without them being zergs, because the moment you limit how many people can engage the mob, it ceases to be an open world raid. It becomes the same as an instanced raid, just without the actual instance.
and seriously, zerging WAS the tactic used for most open world fights in old games. They all just had something to deal with zerg tactics (AOE damage, AOE status effects, adds, etc.)
Unless you use the leve system, at which point you may as well just use the instance system since you'll run into the additional problem of 8 different raid groups in the same small area fighting huge mobs, or waiting in line to fight huge mobs and lagging each other out.
Actually believe it or not the S rank bosses DO have tactics to them along with abilities that make them pretty interesting fights...it's just players CAN take the Zapp Brannigan approach so they WILL take the Zapp Brannigan approach.
And again this always happened in old EQ1 raids. I remember a Grummus raid where there were over 100 people being thrown at it to kill it. In fact most of those fights were no different than slightly scaled up versions of our S ranks, just usually with a lot more HP and/or attack power.
Unless you just want the competition added, which is precisely the reason instanced raids were created in the first place.

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Not really.

A raid would just be a really powerful guy that wanders a tough zone. Which up to 2-4 groups of players can fight at once. Other players are locked out until they are defeated or the boss is defeated, usually the players are defeated. I don't consider fights that you can bring 100-1000 players fun, nore challenging. Your just beating at a giant dudes hp until it reaches 0 and swarming it.

Like Avatars in Everquest 2.
http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Avatar

I know you dislike competition, but please actually try and "read" what i'm saying.


Before they implemented locking encounters stuff like that could be crazy, and locked encounters make said encounters 100x more rewarding.

Here is what you seem to want.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY2gy6crSLU

It doesn't have to all be that hard either, there can be zone bosses that are as hard as ones in World of Darkness, that wander around and can be challenged. Except they can be far more challenging when they are fought in the open world where you can get adds.

If you don't level lock encounters, and more then 4 groups of players challenge a boss, NOBODY SHOULD GET LOOT. You honestly don't deserve it, you zerged it so much you destroyed whatever value that creature had to it.



Fates in this game are absolutely boring, and static. I wish they would scrap them and change them to be more like RIFTs in RIFT where if you don't deal with them they can take over cities and shut down teleporting and lock down quest areas. People are SO afraid of dynamic content or having to actually.. *GASP* Talk to other players!



Yes, as the person below me said. To get to said hard bosses you would also have to fight your way through a hard place to even have a chance to engage them. If you fail, sorry. You have to go through that place again.


Locking Encounters means a chest will pop and actual GOOD loot will be in it! =D

Raid would entail entering a place and fighting your way to a boss. I'm all for open world content but I hope they learn from the example of FFXI and implement some sort of anti-botting tactics. Anything worthwhile will have stiff competition and in order to keep the value higher the respawn time or respawn conditions will need to be longer. They did this is a bit in 1.0, the respawn rate was fairly quick but on the flipside the drop rate was low.

Many of those NM's are now fate bosses.

It would be nice to have a BCNM-type system, and/or a system similar to sky or sea, but a lot of the open world content in XI most probably wouldn't fit well in XIV. Two very different games, two very different game designs.

I think Force Pop NM aka Fraction Leves returning would be a good way to do it. For those who didn't play 1.0...fraction leves were special NM leves that spawned difficult NM for your PT to fight. It could only be targeted and fought by your party (like treasure maps) so I think that would work quite nicely in FFXIV. The rewards they dropped were very good too! Not just glamour stuff or points to buy glamour things >.>;

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Originally Posted by Iromi

I think Force Pop NM aka Fraction Leves returning would be a good way to do it. For those who didn't play 1.0...fraction leves were special NM leves that spawned difficult NM for your PT to fight. It could only be targeted and fought by your party (like treasure maps) so I think that would work quite nicely in FFXIV. The rewards they dropped were very good too! Not just glamour stuff or points to buy glamour things >.>;

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But then it doesn't really run any risk, and is easily bot-able. It also has no competition, so the rewards will be less-so then fighting for it.

It sounds good on paper, but it makes the world seem fake and boring and simply not dangerous.

I for one, never really did leves because they were not fun to me. However a "lockout system" like the Leves have would be great for the first group that pulls said mobs so nobody else can interfere with the fight. However they should be able to watch.


Due to daily limit, I will respond here...

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Then why not instance it, and let everyone take their chances?
This is the mentality XIV's developers take.
What *I* want is limited overworld raid encounters that drop currency. kinda like what already exists. Use the leve and FATE systems for overworld, use instances for large encounters

"Entering a tough zone"
We do that. In instances. Every coil except 5, 9, 12, and 13 have had tough mobs you have to go through to get to the boss. The three towers are the same way. Hell dungeons are the same way.

What i'm getting to is this: You're suggesting a whole new system to replace or supplement something that's already doing that job better. You're actively suggesting something that created so much drama in other games, that when newer games were released, they specifically advertised that they wouldn't be using that system.
In fact everything you've described describes instanced raiding to a T, with the only difference being "happens in the open world." Why create more problems such as lag issues and severe, justified, complaints. There are already complaints over S and A ranks and those reward participation, I don't think you can fathom the complaints that would arise when a mob can actually be stolen.
It's funny you bring up those avatars. See, EQ2 took a different tack than its predecessors. They had instanced non-instanced dungeons and raids, and sometimes they were the same mob. The non-instanced version was FAR harder, to the point only the best of the best that had already killed the instanced version could kill it. The Avatars were like this.
Nowadays? The instanced dungeons take vast precedence over the non-instanced ones. Just because other games have it doesn't mean it was a good idea.

And you talk about level locking. That's the FATE system. It already exists.
What I'm gathering you want is something like Angra Mainyu spawning as a FATE boss in Northern Thanalan. Well, they kinda tried that. His name is Gorgimera. How often does he get killed?
SE has shown they're VEHEMENTLY against having "valuable" loot drops off open world mobs. Even the stuff from leves is worse than what you can get from dungeons. Ever think this was an intentional design choice?

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I am sure you like that boring content, where mobs are ready in a safe zone for your little guilds and groups to do. I am sure you like static content you just need to study a massive test for. There is already plenty of content for you! However, I am different. I like competition, I like my heart racing, I like not always getting what I want and I like fighting things in different places.

I like high risk, high reward content. I don't like going into little safe instances where the boss is ready for me to kill it. That content bores the frik out of me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaDvVgrMmcs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQPuwtT8Ypo

This is the content I like to do, especially in dangerous dungeons (shared) deep within them! Yes they wiped! Its a very hard encounter.

I don't care what they are against, honestly they have changed a lot of how they used to be. They are finally opening up to Open World.

This games open world, is a TOTAL joke.

These days, its all about handing everyone a gold metal. I hate that.

The non-instanced Avatars also dropped loot the instanced ones did not, the loot is the difference between ilevel 80 gear and ilevel130 gear in power.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Did you ever actually play the games you're linking to? Cuz I did. Many times over the years. You know they moved AWAY from the model of open world raiding?
In fact most games do. Why? For the reasons I stated.
This isn't those games. This is FFXIV. Difficult content is going to be instanced so as to not impede in any way the progression of other players. Can you imagine if every static on your server went for the same mob? Look at all the complaining that happens when people miss a hunt. Now amplify that.
It is not worth it to SE to develop something that is going to generate that level of animosity when instanced raiding works just fine. Hell even WoW doesn't do it, and their development team for vanilla was actually AIDED by old EQ1 raiders. Even the people DOING the old content hated the way it was handled.
Maybe this game isn't for you if you like the cutthroat attitude of other games.

And you do know 99/100 raids in those games had "safe spots" where people pulled them? Hell the videos you linked were fought in safe areas. Even if the area to fight wasn't safe, people would camp out in safe spots until they were ready. In what way is that different from sitting in a bosses' room buffing up before engaging? It fundamentally isn't.

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My character is almost 9 years old with 1.5 years of "TIME PLAYED", so I suppose I did play "a little bit" miss.

Now, those games because they got away from what they were, going to what modern games call "fun" they are DEAD. The game is a total ghost town now because nothing is as fun, competitive and cool as it used to be. Nobody stands out anymore, nobody achieves anything because everyone can achieve everything.

Why do you think emulators and progression servers are so popular? EQ1's recent progression server has more people playing it right now then other game's servers. People "MISS" that kind of partying and encounters because it is what made people seem special, people are not special anymore.

For "The Hero of Light" you sure feel like a number instead of a hero.

People complain, about EVERYTHING.

FFXIV's Instanced Combat is the best in the industry right now. However, it has the worst open world content I have ever seen in an MMO besides ESO, which has no real open world. Now that the games I played are moving towards instanced content and other games do it better those games are now DEAD.

an open world raiding content could work like the one FATE in South Shroud with the bandit camp. It have to be just bigger.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

But then it doesn't really run any risk, and is easily bot-able. It also has no competition, so the rewards will be less-so then fighting for it.

It sounds good on paper, but it makes the world seem fake and boring and simply not dangerous.

I for one, never really did leves because they were not fun to me. However a "lockout system" like the Leves have would be great for the first group that pulls said mobs so nobody else can interfere with the fight. However they should be able to watch.

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Your competition can be the timer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLB1F6gIIHk

Also faction leve cost faction point that you get from farming many normal battle leves

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

snip

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Then why not instance it, and let everyone take their chances?
This is the mentality XIV's developers take.
What *I* want is limited overworld raid encounters that drop currency. kinda like what already exists. Use the leve and FATE systems for overworld, use instances for large encounters

"Entering a tough zone"
We do that. In instances. Every coil except 5, 9, 12, and 13 have had tough mobs you have to go through to get to the boss. The three towers are the same way. Hell dungeons are the same way.

What i'm getting to is this: You're suggesting a whole new system to replace or supplement something that's already doing that job better. You're actively suggesting something that created so much drama in other games, that when newer games were released, they specifically advertised that they wouldn't be using that system.
In fact everything you've described describes instanced raiding to a T, with the only difference being "happens in the open world." Why create more problems such as lag issues and severe, justified, complaints. There are already complaints over S and A ranks and those reward participation, I don't think you can fathom the complaints that would arise when a mob can actually be stolen.
It's funny you bring up those avatars. See, EQ2 took a different tack than its predecessors. They had instanced non-instanced dungeons and raids, and sometimes they were the same mob. The non-instanced version was FAR harder, to the point only the best of the best that had already killed the instanced version could kill it. The Avatars were like this.
Nowadays? The instanced dungeons take vast precedence over the non-instanced ones. Just because other games have it doesn't mean it was a good idea.

And you talk about level locking. That's the FATE system. It already exists.
What I'm gathering you want is something like Angra Mainyu spawning as a FATE boss in Northern Thanalan. Well, they kinda tried that. His name is Gorgimera. How often does he get killed?
SE has shown they're VEHEMENTLY against having "valuable" loot drops off open world mobs. Even the stuff from leves is worse than what you can get from dungeons. Ever think this was an intentional design choice?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

I am sure you like that boring content, where mobs are ready in a safe zone for your little guilds and groups to do. I am sure you like static content you just need to study a massive test for. There is already plenty of content for you! However, I am different. I like competition, I like my heart racing, I like not always getting what I want and I like fighting things in different places.

I like high risk, high reward content. I don't like going into little safe instances where the boss is ready for me to kill it. That content bores the frik out of me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaDvVgrMmcs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQPuwtT8Ypo

This is the content I like to do, especially in dangerous dungeons (shared) deep within them! Yes they wiped! Its a very hard encounter.

I don't care what they are against, honestly they have changed a lot of how they used to be. They are finally opening up to Open World.

This games open world, is a TOTAL joke.

These days, its all about handing everyone a gold metal. I hate that.

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Did you ever actually play the games you're linking to? Cuz I did. Many times over the years. You know they moved AWAY from the model of open world raiding?
In fact most games do. Why? For the reasons I stated.
This isn't those games. This is FFXIV. Difficult content is going to be instanced so as to not impede in any way the progression of other players. Can you imagine if every static on your server went for the same mob? Look at all the complaining that happens when people miss a hunt. Now amplify that.
It is not worth it to SE to develop something that is going to generate that level of animosity when instanced raiding works just fine. Hell even WoW doesn't do it, and their development team for vanilla was actually AIDED by old EQ1 raiders. Even the people DOING the old content hated the way it was handled.
Maybe this game isn't for you if you like the cutthroat attitude of other games.

And you do know 99/100 raids in those games had "safe spots" where people pulled them? Hell the videos you linked were fought in safe areas. Even if the area to fight wasn't safe, people would camp out in safe spots until they were ready. In what way is that different from sitting in a bosses' room buffing up before engaging? It fundamentally isn't.

Raids in EQ were open world and non-instanced. 100+ people would zerg Naggy and only one group in there would get any xp or reward from fight, no thanks to that again.

Just to point out, I am not talking about the HNM system that isn't even in FFXI in the form it was. I am talking about zones like Tu'lia(sky), Lumoria(sea/moon?),Abyssia(alternate reality), Escha(emptyness), where players go into a free roam zone and fight content to better their characters.

I'd like to see entire zones of end game monsters that the players form into group to challenge. It would be free roam as well so the players can decide what they want to fight, not the themepark tour guided raids we have now.

SE is already working on putting in an HNM equivalent monster hunt system for free companies to compete with, the primal hunt system that was promised.

I think the next expansion (after Heavensward) should be us going back in time or to another dimension (Vanadiel) and doing Sky/Sea from there! :D Force pop NMs and HNMs are fine. It's the free roaming ones that become a problem.

Isn't that what the big hunts and Fates are supposed to be already? Not trying to be sarcastic, but I really don't see the difference between what you're asking for and what we already have.

Only way I can see "open world" raiding working, is via non instanced dungeon. DAoC had some of the best designed ones i've seen, with trash mobs more powerful than most bosses in the game, and mechanics in place where if you tried to engage a boss before trigger to get to it was handled, then everyone in dungeon would be automatically killed (not to mention, final bosses being completely immune to dmg till certain mechanics of their fight were taken care of).

Course these were still just glorified zergs, since to make any progress you'd still need to bring at least 40-60 people with you, and to beat the entire raid would take 2-6 hours.

ok, I screwed up with the thread title and forgot the word "ZONE"