Dark knights and progression

So during progression Paladins are usually the main tanks due to their many defensive abilities, and Warriors are the off tank. With the introduction of a third tanking job, do you guys think that it will change the classic PLD/WAR raid comp? I know it's still too early to tell, since we don't have any info on new job abilities, but I think it's safe to assume that Dark Knights won't have as many defensive capabilities as a Paladin since they dual wield a great sword and all. Would they get pigeon holed as another off tank during progression?

3.0 progression will be PLD/WAR. With Alexander HM being delayed a couple weeks you might see a DRK here and there but most people will be progressing with jobs they already are comfortable playing extremely well. 3.2 will be the first content for the new jobs to be widly used during progression.

And that all depends on their abilities and utility.

I watched an interview of the World First T13 raid group.

Their thoughts on DRK is that unless it does something Game-breaking nothing can break the mold of STR down, Storms Path, OT/MT power of WAR/PLD.

World / Server first groups probably won't break the mold for a while, but there will be lvl 60 DRKs by the time Alexander comes out that will want to raid. Will be interesting to see how they fit in and how many groups will try to progress with WAR/DRK

My understanding is new level abilities will replace lower level abilities so play styles may very well change for pal/war.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Snickerzbar

World / Server first groups probably won't break the mold for a while, but there will be lvl 60 DRKs by the time Alexander comes out that will want to raid. Will be interesting to see how they fit in and how many groups will try to progress with WAR/DRK

---

It's tricky to really say that without knowing their particular abilities and mechanics, though. If DRK has some very powerful defenses (at the cost of offensive power when using them?), it could potentially fill in for PLD. If it has some very powerful debuffs, then perhaps PLD/DRK will be a viable combo. If DRK is worthwhile one way or another, we may well see those hardcore progression groups powerleveling it and having it ready to push those raids.

The short answer is that nobody knows.
The long answer is that, if they've done a good job of job balance, we'll see DRK/WAR, DRK/PLD and PLD/WAR based off of personal preference. Or the composition of the rest of the party depending on what kind of utility the DRK has. Like DRK gets int-down and Monks aren't quite as important or they add magic vulnerability so smn/blm become more desirable when you have a DRK.
Many interesting things may happen and everything now is pure speculation until we see the DRK's abilities.

I'd bet on it being decently balanced for any of the 3 combos. The idea that Paladin is default MT over the WAR is pretty much only the product of momentum at this point. Any competent group could use either one MT/OT and I expect that will continue with DRK.

A month before Alexander hard is certainly plenty of time to level a DRK and figure out how it works.

Can't even begin to speculate on what people are going to bring, at this point. Any new ability could redefine the importance of a job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rbstr

Or the composition of the rest of the party depending on what kind of utility the DRK has. Like DRK gets int-down and Monks aren't quite as important or they add magic vulnerability so smn/blm become more desirable when you have a DRK.

---

I like these ideas. DRK manipulating magic various ways fits with its theme.

DRK is gonna be unlike NIN's release alongside a raid, where it was (and is) OP but people had to level it and figure it out and personally get good with it, thus it wasn't used week 1 of FCoB. DRK is gonna be leveled, figured out, and practiced before normal mode Alexander comes out, and damn well figured out before savage Alexander. If it's gonna be able to clear progression content, it'll be used.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZanzhizExaverion

I watched an interview of the World First T13 raid group.

Their thoughts on DRK is that unless it does something Game-breaking nothing can break the mold of STR down, Storms Path, OT/MT power of WAR/PLD.

---

While SP + RoH + DK pretty much covers every base, I think it's safe to say DRK is going to get a personal debuff, or at worst a clone of DK/SP/RoH. We'll just have to see what that is (my money is on a pure INT debuff, stronger than DK, to even out the loss of SP if you'd drop WAR).

You guys forget that DRK can mitigate magic better than the two current tanks and is built around magic. So assuming ppl get good with DRK fast then it might be PLD/DRK for prog then for farm WAR/DRK, and this is if DRK can put out as much damage if not more than WAR. Though I'm not sure what else it could add other than stacking previous buffs SE, SP, RoH, of the current tanks.

I doubt that PLD will be replaced as MT for anything serious. The fact that they use a shield means they take currently ~10% less damage than someone without one, and this will only get better with better shields ; that helps a lot their position as a MT. The other thing is, PLD reason to exist is to be the sturdy shield of the party ; they have an awesome collection of defensive CD that is only bound to get better with the expansion. Even though we do not know much about DRK, they will NOT have as good a CD collectiona s PLD, because then the two of them would be too close in design.


That means that while i could see specific instances where DRK is the best MT (like DRK is the best MT for some rare bosses), in most cases, PLD will probably remain the MT of choice for hard progression content. Note that for easier content, who cares ? Everything will go.

As for OT, currently a warrior offers several interesting things. Thing is, their DPS as OT is nothing particular; the only thing great about their DPS is the fact that when they need to pick up tanking every now and then, they will do much more damage than a PLD while in tank stance, since every 2 minutes they can totally negate their damage reduction. They offer some sweet utility with storm's eye and storm parth, but honestly, it is really easy to see DRK offering different but as valuable utility.

In fact, it is likely that they will not compete on what a war is good at either -- which is DPS while in tank stance, especially when not asked to be in it constantly.

Based on all this, my guess would be this: DRK will be best used as an offtank, like WAR, and will provide higher utility / versatility than a WAR, at the cost of a reduced damage output in tank stance. Both PLD/DRK and PLD/WAR combos will be viable, and the mileage of groups may vary between the two.

PLD/WAR = Progression
WAR/DRK = Farm

Just guessing, but that's how I see it playing out. We'll have 2 weeks to play around with DRK before normal Alex, then 2 weeks to try DRK out in normal Alex before Savage is released. If DRK is viable for whatever position, we'll know when Alex Savage releases.

As long as Square doesn't botch the job completely our PLD will move to DRK. WAR could already MT the whole FCOB progression (which only really means T13) without any problem so we will be fine.

And even if they botch it they have enough time till Alexander Savage to fix it.

It's pretty difficult to say without knowing any DRK abilities at this point, nevermind the fact that there are several unknown abilities between PLD and WAR that will also be in the mix at 60.

From the looks of it (which isn't much) DRK will be more similar to WAR than PLD, and PLD and WAR will likely get new abilities that fit their current repertoire nicely. It's unlikely that PLD will gain mostly damaging abilities while WAR gains mostly defensive ones, for instance. I'd think that this means PLD +WAR/DRK will be the most likely combination, but who knows? WAR+DRK might offer some very interesting utility perhaps.

Well, from the one defensive skill shown by the PLD in the benchmark, I see it pretty hard for them to be removed... I mean, they have a frigging new shield that actually shield things?! :/!!

What if it can null an AoE damage in a certain zone or protect anyone behind the PLD? The strategy potential of something like that would be hardly replaceable if at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alphras

As long as Square doesn't botch the job completely our PLD will move to DRK. WAR could already MT the whole FCOB progression (which only really means T13) without any problem so we will be fine.

---

I would like to know what groups did t13 progression with a war MT.

Farm, perhaps, and those one-off "Look what a war can do!" videos I can see. But actual progression, pre-echo especially? I'd like to know who, if anyone, has actually done that.

Back to the main topic: PLD is the turtle tank and will likely get more turtle abilities with the expansion. I think it has a good chance of staying as the go to MT for progression. But, once more, we can't actually know until we have specifics.

Nobody used WAR MT for world first progression because at low gear levels, PLD was superior due to having a shield and being able to Hallowed one of the Flattens. Hallowed is basically the big edge that PLD has over WAR for MTing in progression because it allows you to just skip over one tank buster to see more of the fight.

WAR, meanwhile, can do 2 specific things as MT for 13:

1.) Mitigate every Flare Breath with IB. This makes the shield not as big of an advantage as the shield only works on Flattens and auto attacks.

2.) More damage as MT, with basically free reign to use Unchained whenever it's up due to how things line up if done correctly.

The main problem for WAR is that Flatten happens every 50s-ish, as opposed to every 60. This forces the WAR into a situation where he cant rotate Veng -> Thrill + Conv w/ IB and has to use other CDs (including Infuriate) very carefully. The WAR will undoubtedly take more damage from Flattens because of this, on top of PLD being able to ignore 1 Flatten entirely, so for progression (and damage not being an issue) PLD would be the superior choice.

However, if you do run into a DPS issue and Hallowed isn't necessary for the point you are at in progression, then WAR MT could be the better option. This also requires the WAR to have a brain, which is suprisingly hard to come by. DPS was never really an apparent issue for most groups, so they stuck with PLD MT. However, this is just T13 we're looking at - Alexander Savage will surely have tighter DPS checks and if Hallowed isn't necessary then we could certainly see the higher DPS tank comp taking the lead; whether thats WAR MT/PLD OT, WAR MT/DRK OT, or DRK MT/WAR OT is a mystery. It could very well even be DRK MT/PLD OT.

But yeah, WAR MT was fine for T13 progression, just Hallowed was an easier workaround for seeing more phases since progression pushed so quickly. If you were lagging behind, WAR MT could've been a viable option but it wasn't explored since most groups defaulted to PLD MT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

This also requires the WAR to have a brain, which is suprisingly hard to come by. DPS was never really an apparent issue for most groups, so they stuck with PLD MT.

---

To be fair, PLDs without a brain (or much of one) are a very hard to heal through the flarebreath/flatten combo as well. The difference between a good PLD and a mediocre one there is night and day.

But... all in all and barring fight-specific mechanics that might give a particular tank an advantage, why wouldn't you use the more defensive tank for progression MTing? It will be interesting to see where DRK falls, since if it's debuff based that will basically cement PLD as MT for mobs that absolutely truck the tank, a la using Storm's now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I would like to know what groups did t13 progression with a war MT.

Farm, perhaps, and those one-off "Look what a war can do!" videos I can see. But actual progression, pre-echo especially? I'd like to know who, if anyone, has actually done that.

Back to the main topic: PLD is the turtle tank and will likely get more turtle abilities with the expansion. I think it has a good chance of staying as the go to MT for progression. But, once more, we can't actually know until we have specifics.

---

Well we did. There is not really much of a difference between WAR and PLD MT in T13, except that the Healers need to know how to handle Holmgang, if you want to use to cheese one flatten/flare breath combo in the first phase, and that the WAR has it easier managing cooldowns later on.

Edit: There is no big difference between healing a good WAR and a good PLD in general anyway (except HG vs Holmgang of course). PLD taking less damage is a huge misconception. It all depends on the timing of the fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

The main problem for WAR is that Flatten happens every 50s-ish, as opposed to every 60. This forces the WAR into a situation where he cant rotate Veng -> Thrill + Conv w/ IB and has to use other CDs (including Infuriate) very carefully. The WAR will undoubtedly take more damage from Flattens because of this, on top of PLD being able to ignore 1 Flatten entirely, so for progression (and damage not being an issue) PLD would be the superior choice.

---

We never ran into this problem, since we tank swapped for each flatten in the first phase, which made it a joke concerning tank damage. But you are right, the CD management in a 50s window is more difficult for a WAR.

You can also ignore one flatten/flare breath combo with Holmgang, but your healers need to know what they are doing.

Maybe DRK could be a solo job class. Can tank and DPS

dunno if any1 knows about this

seems like they are op early on, if their skills go live like that and the balancing takes some time (like it did with nin)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ks3v3n

dunno if any1 knows about this

seems like they are op early on, if their skills go live like that and the balancing takes some time (like it did with nin)

---

Read the big red letters going down. The first letter of every attack and cooldown name.

It is even spelled out at the bottom.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I would like to know what groups did t13 progression with a war MT.

Farm, perhaps, and those one-off "Look what a war can do!" videos I can see. But actual progression, pre-echo especially? I'd like to know who, if anyone, has actually done that.

---

again this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-PY-YQtUYA

A skilled group in Excalibur they use WAR MT for progression

DRK might turn tank roles on its head. Think back to FFXI and utsusemi. Tank and spank was done. SE had to go out of their way to find ways to break blink tanking.

I don't disagree that world first elite players will stick to WAR/PLD. But they may find that DRK usurps one of those.

Just taking a wild guess here, but I'm starting to think that DRK/PLD may take the cake depending on a few things. There's the possible chance that DRK will have the better magic def, and with their focus on MP usage it'll limit the need for TP boost and stay focused on Ballad. Another thing is wholly dependent on what kind of debuff they get. Also Sword Oath, in long fights, supposedly does more damage than a WAR out of defiance. This plus cover and the new wall ability, along with a riot blade combo, may very well give them the edge. Not to mention the tossing around of Stone Skin to help conserve healer MP.

Side note; I know it's not something considered often, but considering the size of their swords, it's possible they could get blunt crushing damage as their type, giving them synergy with MNK. A sword that size honestly wouldn't need an edge to be effective; just gravity and momentum. Plus, if they do have better magic damage mitigation, MNK's could make them even more resilient while helping increase the damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gildarts

again this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-PY-YQtUYA

A skilled group in Excalibur they use WAR MT for progression

---

That is pretty impressive. That WAR was pretty awesome with his CDs, although, that second flatten/flare combo was cutting it very close all the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dspguy

I don't disagree that world first elite players will stick to WAR/PLD. But they may find that DRK usurps one of those.

---

I don't know. We have several weeks before the new raids become available; it's fast enough for HC players, or just with HC leanings, to easy grind up the class. Some of the finer points of the class's techniques might not come out for a while but, if the class is solid, it's plenty of time for leading raiders to pick it up and toss it into the mix.

DRKs need to be busted in one way or another to replace PLD or WAR in 3.0 progression.

DRKs either need to have an excellent mitigation suite that rivals PLD's (Rampart, Sentinel, Bulwark, HALLOWED GROUND, blocking, STR down debuff) or the utility that beats the offensive and defensive utility that WAR provides (Storm's Eye, Storm's Path, high DPS while still being able to tank effectively).

Maybe if they give DRK Dragon Kick or something it might enable NIN + DRG progression comps.

I can picture DRK having an int debuff, or a magic resistance down debuff on one of its combos. Obviously they would clash with mnk or Brd respectively, much like storm's eye does with nin, but it would be a nice way to give them value in an already established meta. If given the choice I would assume the int debuff as mag res down would be a little on the over powered side.

I can't see them having more magic resistance, our current ranks have a lot of that already with both gear and cooldownS. A magic damage combo or aoe though...that is a likely possibility. This of course would make Drk + war valid for something Like T11, where the pld holds his own through the merits of the str debuff and superior defensive capabilities.

In the end though, I have a feeling SE will take steps with the next ten levels on our current tanks to make any of the three combinations, doubles obviously excluded, valid for all content.