How to encourage players to help out with clears on pf

I was just reading a thread regarding rmt and sell groups (don't want to rehash that here), it did make me think that in order to encourage experienced players into pf groups to help with learning and clears there needs to be some sort of encouragement. I understand that many experienced players don't want to go over old content with people who cannot clear on the first run (or even manage to clear at all) without some sort of incentive. I know there's 100 sol, but that's only if you manage to get a clear. It would also be nice to encourage people to stick around in fail df groups, even if it's just to give the new players some practice. (I'm thinking of my own experience in t9 trying to learn elementals etc)

I don't know, maybe some sort of achievement you can work towards or a minion. I have no idea how it would work and thought someone out there might have a brilliant idea. Lemme know

No, the system should not try to entice people to be samaritans nor should people feel entitled to have samaritans be provided for them. They need to learn to look for help and I mean actually look for it, not just sit in PF, afk for a day and then come running to the forums or start ignoring other people's PF requirements.

That's what the Duty Finder rewards are for. Party Finder is just a function that is like a global /shout. Maybe they could make a roulette for raids, Coils and Alexander when the raids are released into the DF.

But DF is what rewards players who do not need the trial/dungeon etc, to help new players.

You have to offer veterans rewards they actually want instead of a small bonus in token. I made a post about new players increase the RNG success rate for whistle drops in extreme.

I THINK there won't be an incentive that is good enough to make people spend hours and hours of wiping with a learning/progression group. The people that actually help, will still do it, regardless, because you'll always have that good samaritan (Which most of the time states "I'm bored, that's why I joined") that will join the party and help these poor souls. What it works so far, it's joining a FC or a LS full of helpful people. You might also find people who actually need the same content than you do, because we all know how bad it is to run with a different group people all the time. Most of the FCs will help these guys, but I've also seen how these people abuse of helpful players asking them to do everything for them.

The trick is that incentives can backfire. To really make a 'valueable' enough incentive to push people to make that difference, it needs to be an incomparable, exclusive incentive. Things like "extra tokens" or "added drop rates" aren't really going to do the trick, because the fact is you can (usually) farm far faster and effectively with experienced players. But giving, say, "hey you can get this exclusive mount for being in x parties getting a new player bonus on [content here]" sounds great until the part where it A. rewards clear selling groups for amping up their activity, and B. can open players up to a lot more frustration they would otherwise do their best to avoid, which can translate into them venting that frustration on new players.

This isn't to say it's bad. I would not mind some stronger incentive than a bit more soldiery (something experienced players are already probably sick of having capped out). Although, keep the soldiery bonus - it's actually great for the new players. But curious that the intended incentive for helping new players actually helps those new players more than the veterans.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

The trick is that incentives can backfire. To really make a 'valueable' enough incentive to push people to make that difference, it needs to be an incomparable, exclusive incentive. Things like "extra tokens" or "added drop rates" aren't really going to do the trick, because the fact is you can (usually) farm far faster and effectively with experienced players. But giving, say, "hey you can get this exclusive mount for being in x parties getting a new player bonus on [content here]" sounds great until the part where it A. rewards clear selling groups for amping up their activity, and B. can open players up to a lot more frustration they would otherwise do their best to avoid, which can translate into them venting that frustration on new players.

This isn't to say it's bad. I would not mind some stronger incentive than a bit more soldiery (something experienced players are already probably sick of having capped out). Although, keep the soldiery bonus - it's actually great for the new players. But curious that the intended incentive for helping new players actually helps those new players more than the veterans.

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It just needs to be more specific. eg

1) DF only ever places one player in need of a clear in the party, instead of sometimes half the players needing a clear
2) DF places players who do NOT abandon parties in higher priority than players who have abandoned parties in the last 30 days.
3) Rare drop is only awarded if the player needing the clear is pulled from DF, not PF. So in a sense, pre-form a 6 or 7 player party and leave one or two slots open, and then pick Extreme Primal or Coil turn that you want the reward from. Thereby selling groups can not "sell" a clear and get the reward because the player who "needs" the clear can't be part of the preformed party.

The problem is that "helping others" and "being a good person" isn't a tangible reward. Most of the community look at their play time as something of value and will not "waste their time" (as some would say) on helping someone they don't know if there isn't some kind of tangible reward.

In other words, adding rewards doesn't fix that fact that most players won't help. It's an attitude issue not a reward issue.

I have joined a few help pfs, most recently ifrit ex. Very easy fight clear first time 3 ppl were new, then the flame war begins between the non first timers "your a shit sch" "learn to DPS etc" admittedly yes the SCH didn't make some silly mistakes but don't we all time to time.

I just congratulated the newbies and went on my way, this attitude some people have is unacceptable.

As a player who rarely asks for help for anything I feel that regardless of a reward being offered, I would only help if I truely want to not being held for ransom over a mount etc

maybe give food or potions , some gil ¬¬ , raiding itself isnt sustainable , i wont mind helping on extreme , T1...T9 if i get something that help me on raiding current content.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

maybe give food or potions , some gil ¬¬ , raiding itself isnt sustainable , i wont mind helping on extreme , T1...T9 if i get something that help me on raiding current content.

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yea, my biggest annoyance with helping others is not the time spent, but the fact that it also costs me to do so. Its not much, but it builds up over time, especially if its all you do.

I am stuck on turn 9. I know I will get it at some point.

However someone that need it now. there is a system in place. you pay for it.

As there really isn't a lot of need for gil in this game it's a good use.

The thing is, we have a system to encourage players to be helpful, its called Commendations. One big problem is you can't even commend players that are in your party. I know there are "Abuse prevention" reasons for it, but that leaves you with literally no way to show gratitude to players that help you clear beyond "Thanks" or "Here is a pile of gil"

Now that I think about it, there is also Soldiery bonus. So I think SE is hip to your jive, daddy-o (that's how kids talk to today, right?) They just can't yet balance "Reward" vs "Time spent". If I need tomes for something, I'll join "3 primal fights for my relic, TOME BONUS" or similar parties all day long. But no way in hell am I joining "T9 clear, know the fight" for 100 tomes. That is an hour of my life if I give it an honest try, and even if the party starter really knows the fight, inevitably some other idiot who hasn't seen past first meteor phase will join.

Speaking of Commendations, I wish you could vote for more than one. Would if I like how everyone played? -.-

In Masamune, mostly if DF we will vote abandon after 15mins if our progress look pointless. Even at first try we can go up to 90% HP boss then second try we wont able to make it to 30% we will vote abandon then retry q again, that's how it works here.

New player can do practice while veteran less stress, unlike US/NA they tend to clear the run, that's the stress come in when we try to do over and over again same thing with same people.

PF normally for serious run or farm purpose, now I'm still on progress for T12 I q alone learn little by little for every 15min in every q.
I know I cant ask anyone help to clear my run because everyone have their stuff need to do or they just don't want to help because I'm new.

I think we just need to encourage people to get better and more active in finding a winning party, rather blaming the fails on others and ending up buying those runs and/or getting carried.

Changing the now-useless soldiery bonus to poetics would probably help a bit.

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Originally Posted by Hakuro89

Changing the now-useless soldiery bonus to poetics would probably help a bit.

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This... also, bonus tomes for helping first time completions should allow players to go over the usual 450 weekly cap. That would greatly encourage experienced players to join new players in completing content, and give them a reason to actually stick around.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

This... also, bonus tomes for helping first time completions should allow players to go over the usual 450 weekly cap. That would greatly encourage experienced players to join new players in completing content, and give them a reason to actually stick around.

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Do you honestly not see how that could be abused?
* Points towards a crowd of identical BLMs with no grand companies, itching for their "first clears" *

The thing that i find in the learning party is people that know the fight but do not know their job. Then you give them tip or feedback and they get all defencive.

Give T5, T9 250 poetic rewards for first time clears and you will see lots of people wanting to help new players.

One thing that would help a lot is if people would actually be honest about how much experience they have with a fight when they make a PF. I do not want to join a party entitled "T9 progression from divebombs to clear" and then never even see Heavensfall once or a Ramuh EX clear party that can't even get the adds down.

When I join a clear party to help out, I expect people to know both the mechanics of the fight and their role in it. The players who join clear parties aren't there to teach you the fight, they're there to help you finally get the clear. You should already know the fight by that point.

You can't really help newbies who still has no idea what their "rotations" should be... or the fact that they need MINIMUM level 110 weapons (not relic, just weapons + gears at 110 overall or higher). The weapon + gears + knowing your rotation would at least help a bit, you only need to be familiar with the fighting mechanics (and learn how to dodge...). Most "casuals" in NA/Euro servers are beyond bad, the lack of "you need to really care about your class and do a bit of research to know how you play" is really jarring.. All you need is to run Crystal Towers to see the absurdity of a bunch of players who really do not give a rat's ass about game mechanic, their roles + duties. Especially the weekenders, it is that bad.

I don't blame veteran players who do not even want to waste their time helping with the clear, since it is mostly a big waste of your time. 45 minutes on Titan Hard mode is just...I dunno, beyond help, it is not a hard fight, at all, to figure out the pattern and rotation, especially if you have seen youtube video first hand. Not only these so called casuals often blames the veterans (for not getting them clears), they could end up with the prized pony that the veterans were looking for in the first place.

It would also help if the person who wants the clear didn't sound like a deuchebag who is providing us service for giving us 100 sol, because that is exactly how many messages on clear requests look. Honestly the 100 sol is absolutely nothing, I can queue up for hydra or chimera with my tank and get +-120 sol in 15 minutes.

Also it would help if the person who wants the clear atleast watched the whole guide on youtube and tried it a few times in DF. If I am going to help you, I don't care about "I don't watch the guides, I want to figure it out," if you want to figure it out, then don't ask for a clear from experienced players.

This is just all I wanted to add to this case, unfortunately there is not anything that would make helping with clears worthwhile enough, because even 200 - 300 sol is not usually worth it in my opinion. If someone wants to help, he will help, but keep in mind that the person does get next to nothing for it and you are really lucky that he is wasting his time with you.

I sound salty, mostly because I have met lalafelloads of people who acted like I should thank them for letting me waste my 50 minutes with them for 100 sol.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

It just needs to be more specific. eg

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Making DF sort people out like that would be more trouble than it's worth and would make queue times awful.

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Originally Posted by Stupiduglytaru

...ifrit ex... flame war...

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I found your choice of words amusing there. :3

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Give T5, T9 250 poetic rewards for first time clears and you will see lots of people wanting to help new players.

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Nah. Poetics is easy to cap as it is, and allowing the reward to go past the weekly cap would be abused.

Honestly, I don't think minions or mounts or any extra incentive would be really helpful. People that want to help would still help. People that don't really want to help would help but they'd be miserable and make everyone around them miserable. If I put up a party looking for help getting a friend a clear, I'd rather have people that enjoy helping others and will allow them to progress rather than those that will tell them 'just go lick the wall so I can get my minion faster'.

Offer them gil as compensation.

Where to get the gil? RMT I guess, since that's how everyone thinks people with more than 5 million gil got their money.. There's no way you can make more than 5 million gil by working the market board.

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Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

Which most of the time states "I'm bored, that's why I joined

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That's pretty much why I q into anything nowadays. There's hardly any reason for me to log on right now...

I don't have any real suggestions, but people abuse help from vets. A quick example.. a newbie might get themselves killed by a simple mechanic, wont realize it, and sometimes will go as far as to blame their vet helper. Aggressively. Basically taking their frustrations out on someone who's just trying to be nice. So that's something to think about. Whatever the reward is, it's gotta be worth potentially being abused by the inexperienced. Don't get me wrong, I help out sometimes. I'm just highlighting this point.

A nice thought. But offering a reward will mostly bring in people who are there strcitly for the reward, which usually mean a lot of yelling.
A way around this, at least a little, would be to add a system like player comms, specifically for helping pf parties. That way if you show up to abuse people and get a reward, it doesn't work. People would find ways around it, they always do, but that would probably be by forming your own parties and comm trading, but that wouldnt effect the real learning parties.

create and use this macro:

/p Hello everyone, I am new to this instance. Please share your knowledge and advice with me. Thank you very much!!

I hate those silent ones, where you ask if everyone knows what to do and they dont say a thing, then wipe the mechanics.

I just clear t12, I know my DPS is lowest but I try my best to help others with my song and mech.
After few run in DF plus vid I know the phase and the rotation, where to move and what to do.
For all my queue today I've met countless failure, plus with the DPS long queue but it's worth.

For veteran player who didn't help me, I honestly feel bit sad with their arrogant act that don't want to do the content with newbies.
But now I'm not really care anymore because I know I will be on par with them or even better.

This is my start-up macro (This is my first time here.) (Please assist.). But mostly Japanese doesn't really care because they will vote abandon after 15min if that run look pointless.

The best way to incentivize clear party participation... is to not be a jerk to those joining. It's the attitudes and the anger that makes joining clear parties a pariah among the general player base. People play this game to have fun, and while organizing and running clear groups may be fun for some most play games to get away from work and stress. I can have every bit as much fun from a failed run as I can a successful one IF everyone at least gave their best effort and noone flipped a lid at failing. But it's so very rare I find that kind of relaxed play even in such venues as Crystal Tower and High Roulette. Relax, learn to be patient, and you'll get more people and we'll get a better community for it.

Some of us don't need an incentive, in terms of an in game reward. What we'd like is for people that we're helping to actually be thankful and not act like dicks. I've seen many of the "elitist" attitudes people often talk about, but very few seem to point out that the less experienced are just as bad. I know the OP is talking about PF's specifically, but I feel DF's give veterans a bad taste of dealing with the inexperienced. For the last 4 weeks I've been doing Garuda, Titan and Ifrit Extreme in DF. Ifrit is almost pleasant, it can be brute forced with echo even with players tripping up and they seem polite overall and even thank you for advice or carrying them. The other 2 are much harder and the attitudes in them make me not want to help people in DFs any more. 2/3 Titan runs end up with mediocre players kicking the guy/girl struggling the most with plumes/landslides (whilst occasionally being hit themselves), and on a rare occasion, trying to abuse me for giving advice (apparently saying the fight can be finished without a second tank makes one a "know it all prick"). Then there is Garuda Ex, this is by far the worst. Only the DPS seem willing to admit that they are inexperienced, many players just wont bother acknowledging you've said something or asked them a question, or they just don't listen to you when you give them tips so 8/10 groups end up with me quitting first or after someone else has quit. So after putting up with so much of that in DF's, to then get the same behavior in PF's, it just puts me off joining many groups, and I don't doubt that it puts off some others too.

The second thing I'd point out, is that it's very easy for people to ignore a PF group, it's an entirely different thing if a person receives a /tell asking for help. Ignoring a PF or /shout is easy because you're not really rejecting an actual person, these recruitment methods result in diffusion of responsibility (for lack of a better term to apply here) in my eyes, I see a shout/PF and think "someone else will do it" or "someone else can do it". However, having received a /tell asking for help, saying "no" or ignoring it is a bit of a different experience. I've received a few /tells (very very rare), asking me for crafting tips or asking me to help them in dungeons or with primals and Coil clears, if I am bored and it's a fight that I like, I am more likely to join them than if I saw it in a PF or read a /shout chat.

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Originally Posted by Darra

The second thing I'd point out, is that it's very easy for people to ignore a PF group, it's an entirely different thing if a person receives a /tell asking for help.

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Very true. I got a tell from someone the other day in Mor Dhona asking me to help them with T9.

I was making dinner at the time or I totally would have gone. :c

Lol surprised you could see any tells through the rmt static noise