This was an encounter with a reporter NPC, back in 2011:
While it is true that dragons are effectively immortal and tend to hold grudges, the Battle of Silver Tear Skies ended largely in a stalemate, with no clear representation of either side being enemies of the other- rather, the Garleans were investigating the region's concentrated aether, and were effectively attacked for trespassing.Quote:
Petyr Winsome: Why hello there adventurers, My name is Petyr Winsome, reporter for the Harbor Herald.
Petyr Winsome: Say have you heard the rumors about some beastmen tribe attempting to ally themself with the Empire?
Uni Neko: not really, but considering how the empire feels about beastmen, I don't see an alliance happening
Petyr Winsome: It does seem unlikely, and the rumors were unsubstantiated. But from what I have heard it was some sort of really big Beastmen.
Uni Neko: Amal'jaa? I'm sure they're on the empire's genocide list
Jaison Aurelio: I wonder if it's the Ixali! Isn't Garuda their primal?
Petyr Winsome: I do not think it was them, was some tribe I have not heard of, all I heard was that they were very big.
Uni Neko: like trolls?
Petyr Winsome: Perhaps. The only other part of the rumor said that they had an icy demeanor.
Uni Neko: I've met my share of trolls over the year, though they tend to be more obnoxious jerks than "icy"
Petyr Winsome: Then again this all could just be bunk, made by the mind of someone who spent a little too much time rummaging around underground.
Uni Neko: maybe, there sometimes is truth in rumours though
Jaison Aurelio: I wonder where this beastman tribe could be found?
Petyr Winsome: Yes, there is usually some grain of truth somewhere in a rumor. Only time would tell though.
Nyeik Knight: Great, so now we wait.
Petyr Winsome: The report I saw with the rumor said something about "up north" somewhere.
Petyr Winsome: No real specific location was mentioned unfortunately.
Jaison Aurelio: I wonder if we adventurers can travel there at the moment?
Uni Neko: must be pretty cold up north
Jaison Aurelio: I want to confront these icy beastmen!
Taylor Tots: and negotiate with my fine tip sword to their throats!
Petyr Winsome: I wonder that myself honestly. But I think I'll leave first contact to you strong adventurers.
Petyr Winsome: A bit too old to be wandering about in dangerous territory now.
Jaison Aurelio: I wonder if these icy beastmen call upon Shiva as their primal!
Petyr Winsome: I think that would make sense, certainly more so than having it be Ifrit. I do believe that one would get cold up there.
Petyr Winsome: Well I must be off now to get these notes to my editor. You have been a great help. Thank you kindly.
Fast forward to 3.0- Garleans just got walloped by the Eorzean alliance, and are losing their foothold in the region. The Dragons played their best card by attacking Ishgard head-on, with the help of their new found access to Primal Shiva- And were also effectively trounced.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"... I believe that based on the state of affairs across Aldenard, and the quotes listed above, that we may be soon running into a powerful alliance between these former rivals. Especially since these "unsubstantiated" rumors appear to be entirely factual, at least so far.
Thoughts?
Possible [spoiler] between Dragons and Garleans?
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04-30-2015, 05:33 PMDuuude007Possible [spoiler] between Dragons and Garleans?
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04-30-2015, 05:49 PMWyrahFhurrst
Could be the dragons, or the Giants, or even the Cyclopses. Lots of routes to explore with those last two that we haven't seen yet, and both of them seem to enjoy the weather of Coerthas.
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04-30-2015, 05:54 PMDuuude007Except we already know that Shiva is in league with the dragons...Quote:
Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst
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04-30-2015, 06:21 PMDalvy
I don't think they are in league with each other. Midgardsormr said that dragons do not forget past crimes, and attacking grandpappy is probably the most serious of crimes...
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04-30-2015, 10:38 PMDuuude007Technically the dragons initiated the attack... and 'grandpappy' was supposed to be their superweapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalvy
And the way the 'GM dressed as a reporter' worded it, the dragons would be the ones seeking the alliance.
And since when has Shiva not shared a common goal with the dragons? The main attack on the steps of faith was made possible thanks to the woman who is host to Shiva. It may not be in line with 'ancient' Shiva's original interests, but the evidence is pretty clear on who influences her now. -
04-30-2015, 11:08 PMAnonymoose
That'd be one way to explain why the Garleans keep putting dragons on their regalia (though it doesn't quite mesh with my current theory).
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/f...s-and-Garleans -
04-30-2015, 11:24 PMNalien
Would they really refer to Dragons as Beastmen? Seems like that would be a demotion for a Dragon...
I'm incline to speculate that maybe the Gnath are allied with Garlemald... They seem to be polluting the area with fumes (their territory seems reminiscent of Bluefog and the Ceruleum Processing Plant), perhaps they managed to strike a deal with the Garleans to supply them with resources... Giant and icy kind of fall off the table, but they're the only new beast tribe we seem to be getting "up north", unless you count the Vanu Vanu, but they seem to be skybound, rather than northward. -
04-30-2015, 11:25 PMAnonymooseYoshi-P referred to the dragons as a Beast Tribe, hinting that they may have Gods to summon, but whether or not that was limited to Bahamut foreshadowing, I dunno.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
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04-30-2015, 11:41 PMNalienJust seems odd to me, a Dragon is a Dragon, I don't know where the ambiguity in the claims would be coming from. How does one mistake Dragons for a just something "really big" with an "icy demeanor" (and surely Dragons would have a fiery demeanor?), it just doesn't add up for me. Seems more likely the original plan was for Shiva to actually have a beast tribe rather than heretics and that plan got canned between 1.0 and now. Perhaps some of the concepts got carried over into a new tribe, in which case I wouldn't be surprised to hear the Gnath had dealings with the Garleans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
I guess it is possible the Garleans and Dragons have some deal though, it would explain why both Dragons and Garleans and occupying The Keeper of the Lake without really bothering each other (and we've had mobvmob mechanics as early as Wanderer's Palace, so it's not like they couldn't have had some Garleans fighting some Dragons there...). -
04-30-2015, 11:47 PMLainmystI am correct in guessing this conversation took place in 1.0? Since FFXIV ARR was not launched until the end of August 2012.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
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05-01-2015, 12:07 AMDuuude007This is correct, its just interesting to see most if not all of these NPC-origin rumors to be ringing true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lainmyst
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05-01-2015, 12:17 AMAnonymooseFunny you should say that - all signs pointed to the Gigants. When we got to ARR and learned that the three Gigant species came from the North (Abalathia's Spine) and thought Crystal Tower (which looks like ice) was sacred and the last room of Copperbell was The Cold Throne, the first thing I remembered was this conversation with Petyr and I was so sure the Gigas were Shiva's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalien
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05-01-2015, 01:31 AMLycorisSelunis
Well to summon a primal is faith and aether right? What if the dragons have their own version of Shiva to summon? The one we fought was what Iceheart wished for but the dragons could have their own interpretation made manifest my the right ritual. If Shiva was a historical figure they might actually even remember her mortal form. I think it could be a cool story implication if we had two different versions of the same primal- it's already a big deal that Shiva was summoned in the fashion she was.
I also wouldn't be surprised if Ascians were playing both sides in the war in Ishgard, and manipulated a very young dragon that had not the wisdom of his elders into taking their advice on summoning rituals. -
05-01-2015, 02:07 AMDuuude007I see where you are going with this, but for simplicity's sake I find that unlikely.Quote:
Originally Posted by LycorisSelunis
When a primal is created, it tends to take a very specific form, likely because the former aether of the original being took that form. Not because someone misprinted that Enkidu was blue and thus can be summoned blue. Think ff7 lifestream.
The story behind Louisoix/phoenix, I believe, is very similar (in end result) to that of Shiva. He became the new host for the long-forgotten being, Phoenix. -
05-01-2015, 02:36 AMAoxaviarDeep end Jumping - Known New Primal???
With the thoughts of the Gigants, I would lean more to them summoning something like Kiajai (FFVII) since they seem to based/placed in various earthly locations. Also following migration, they may have been born up in the far north, but headed towards Mor Dhona, Corethas, and even Thanalan looking for food/shelter/homelands due to whatever happened up there (Garlean invasion/slavery perhaps...)
With this thought in mind, and with Yoshi-P mentioned about the dragon beast tribe my mind doesn't to towards Shiva on this one. I get why most of you are going there, Shiva - THE ICE PRIMAL/SUMMONS/GF...of the Franchise.
My mind however heads to the gorge below the bridge between Whitebirm Front and Stone Vigil where a small, dead, snow white dragon lies. Also, based on video provided by SE, Bismark may be a Dragon, but he is white.
The aspect of "Icy" may just be a personality trait, not the basis of their primal's power. -
05-01-2015, 03:23 AMDuuude007The demeanor is referencing the beastkin, not the primal, in the text provided.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoxaviar
Also, the text merely says shiva would make sense as being associated, given the state of the weather "up north".
Lastly, Bismarck has always been represented as an aquatic being, usually a whale, but whether it "swam" or "flew" has not always been clear from title to title...(ex: the whale airship in FF4). At least in the context of Eorzea, we know many skyfish exist, so logic suggests beasts even more massive could fly, with clouds between their knees. (sorry, superman tangent) -
05-01-2015, 04:15 AMAnonymooseCould that be, do you think? My original interpretation was that the story was putting emphasis on Ysayle's Echo being responsible for her candidacy as a vessel for a primal, and on Louisoix somehow just becoming one. Louisoix didn't have the Echo, as far as we know, and Ysayle was free to walk away relatively unscathed after Shiva was forced to withdraw. I wouldn't call it a illogical leap, by any means, but (so far) it feels (to me) like more separation than overlap between Shiva and Phoenix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
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05-01-2015, 04:35 AMDuuude007The difference i see is that she mainained her free will even when she freely gave over her body. Louisoix was enthralled as the prayers/aether of eorzea were concentrated within Louisoix, and presumeably the 'Phoenix' existed in Bahamut's memories as a desparate means to an end- a way he can be restored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
A confluence of events I know, but again, after either entity was defeated, they returned to their former humanoid bodies.
Edit: holy cow, this topic went on a wierd tangent, lol. -
05-01-2015, 05:09 AMtreuhavikLouisoux became Phoenix before defeating Bahamut and was enthralled by the dying Primal as he attempted to return the borrowed aether, along with his own, to the land. So, while Louisoux was infused with the power of a primal, he had full control of himself for as long as he intended to live.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
No, the only difference between the two is the wording used. Iceheart was "host to" and Louisoux "became" a primal. Also, Louisoux's summoning ended in his death (or would have, had he not been snatched by Bahamut). Other than those two points, each of these events appear no different.