When should WHM use Stoneskin I?

Hey everyone quick question. I see that Stoneskin II does all party members but the normal one is one person at a time. I just unlocked it at 34 but since I have to do it on one person at a time, and it doesn't last long, should I be casting it on the whole party before a boss or just the tank? A tank did a ready check and I said no, then cast it on everyone and then said yes but I don't think that's necessary as the next time I just cast it while the battle had started already as no one was taking damage. I always do protect at the start but not entirely clear on the best proper usage of Stoneskin when leveling up to 50 when I don't have Stoneskin II? Thanks!

I just give it to everybody at the start of a dungeon and afterwards before bosses. Most likely I'll apply it to damage dealers out of combat. I don't see any use applying it to a tank all the time.

And remember, Stoneskin I can be cast on fighting targets, Stoneskin II can't.

Stoneskin just the tank for trash pulls (especially those larger ones in SV/DD/AV). For final bosses I would just stoneskin everyone, negates some party damage just in-case tank doesn't get that aggro right away.

Perfect thanks that's what I thought. :)

Just figured I'd throw out some food for thought for some advanced techniques when you hit 50. There are some attacks in the game that reduce the healing efficiency a target may receive. This debuff is generally known as Infirmity and most notable users of this are Twintania's Death Sentance in Turn 5 and the final boss of Stone Vigil HM (I'm sure you've had experience with both of them). Single tank Ramuh EX comes to mind too.

Note that since Stoneskin shielding is based on the targets maximum HP, it actually bypasses the healing debuff and thus may prove to be a better "heal" than your normal spells. In the same vein, HoTs like Regen and Medica II take a snapshot of your stats and the targets stats, so if you apply these on the target pre-Infirmity, they will continue to tick for maximum level. Likewise, if you reapply Regen near the end of a Divinel Seal CD, Regen will have the increased power until it expires/replaced.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Just figured I'd throw out some food for thought for some advanced techniques when you hit 50. There are some attacks in the game that reduce the healing efficiency a target may receive. This debuff is generally known as Infirmity and most notable users of this are Twintania's Death Sentance in Turn 5 and the final boss of Stone Vigil HM (I'm sure you've had experience with both of them). Single tank Ramuh EX comes to mind too.

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Also Levithan EX and Briny Mirror is another example where regen and stoneskin can help mitigate without adding stacks.

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Originally Posted by 416to305

I just unlocked it at 34

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Right now you should use it sparingly. Stoneskin is a specialized tool, not a bread and butter heal. Before bosses and on tanks, mostly.

Much later on, you'll find yourself casting it more often as a way to deal with various boss mechanics, or to help people with weakness deal with big unavoidable hits.

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Originally Posted by technole

Stoneskin just the tank for trash pulls (especially those larger ones in SV/DD/AV). For final bosses I would just stoneskin everyone, negates some party damage just in-case tank doesn't get that aggro right away.

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I recommend stoneskinning everyone in the party. If a DPS pulls, eats an avoidable, or something else unplanned happens, this gives healers a bit more breathing room.

At level 50, swiftcast + stoneskin 2 makes this very easy to do as the group is running to the next pull.

Thanks everyone! I actually haven't done those dungeons as Bard yet. I've just unlocked the extreme mode primals and am on syrcus tower and have to do a few more hard mode dungeons, last one I did was Haukke Manor I think. Just been addicted to WHM and have totally put my Bard on hold lol. So far so good, keep getting 2-3 commendations on these 4 person dungeons so that's encouraging!

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I recommend stoneskinning everyone in the party. If a DPS pulls, eats an avoidable, or something else unplanned happens, this gives healers a bit more breathing room.

At level 50, swiftcast + stoneskin 2 makes this very easy to do as the group is running to the next pull.

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Bosses yes, swift+stoneskin 2 when you can. Trash mob pulls no, I'd rather have swift for holy stun goodness. Tank can play their role and provoke off a stray on a dps/healer.

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Originally Posted by technole

Bosses yes, swift+stoneskin 2 when you can. Trash mob pulls no, I'd rather have swift for holy stun goodness. Tank can play their role and provoke off a stray on a dps/healer.

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This.

If the tank is doing their job, and the DPS are dodging bad stuff, then you generally don't even need to apply SS on the DPS between mobs (Stone Vigil HM is an example of an exception with those dragons using that undodgable AoE).

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Originally Posted by technole

Bosses yes, swift+stoneskin 2 when you can. Trash mob pulls no, I'd rather have swift for holy stun goodness. Tank can play their role and provoke off a stray on a dps/healer.

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I've never really had trouble getting holy off without swiftcast (and SC isn't up for every pull anyway), but to each their own I guess.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

This.

If the tank is doing their job, and the DPS are dodging bad stuff, then you generally don't even need to apply SS on the DPS between mobs (Stone Vigil HM is an example of an exception with those dragons using that undodgable AoE).

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Well, yes. Outside of tankbusters, stoneskin is never ever needed. Some may find the extra margin of error helpful, though; a lot of people don't play perfectly, especially in the DF.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I've never really had trouble getting holy off without swiftcast (and SC isn't up for every pull anyway), but to each their own I guess.

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I don't think anyone does. But swiftcast+holy some may find that extra margin of error helpful to get off cleric stance immediately if-needed. To each their own of course.

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Originally Posted by technole

I don't think anyone does. But swiftcast+holy some may find that extra margin of error helpful to get off cleric stance immediately if-needed. To each their own of course.

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Hmm. You're not waiting on the cleric stance CD at that point? Usually I have to get 1 non-swift holy off before the timer's expired.

I just do,
-beginning of dungeon
-start casting just before the last monster is dead (sometimes I just forget or get lazy and just swiftcase SS II as we're all running off. It's not often I need SC for Raise when traversing trash mobs in dungeons)
-Before a boss pull
-After boss pull
-If I'm wary of spike damage on the tank
-SS myself (when I'm not frantic healing) if I find myself having a bad dodgey day

-and sometimes I'll just SC a SS II before everyone leaves the dungeon, to give some buffs for the road, if I liked the party. lol

Unfortunately, you're stuck SSing one at a time till you hit SSII. You can use Presence of Mind to speed it up if you really wanted to, at that stage, since you might not have Holy yet.

There was mention of SC for Holy - the only times I ever SC a Holy is for defensive use to stun things when shit is hitting fans (such as mid-spawning trash mobs in raids that tanks haven't picked up. I'll do it to stun trash thats on me, my co-healer or if I can identify the alliance member being hit is a squishy so they're not killed/extend time for peeps to get to killing the ADD(s)) or if theres just too much mob on the tank and need a few second breather to catch up (Bene + SC + Holy + Catch up).
But that's just me o_o

How to stoneskin pre post 50 dungeons:
- apply it on ur dps every now and then cuz always assume ur dps r stupid. Like no joke, in df you will always have ur dps eat attacks that were "avoidable"
While stoneskin is still on them, ur mp will fill up again so no worries.

Imo i actually stoneskin the dps more than the tank so i can see who can dodge or if the tank is not doing their job right and losing emnity to a dps.
If that stoneskin icon is not beside ur name and was not lost to something unavoidable then ofc there's gonna be some wtf mannnnn lol

Q: Should I ever use Stoneskin I?

A: Whenever you feel like it.

It's not a healing buff, it's a shield. They have a fixed amount of points they will absorb before they expire, and in most dungeons it only buys you one hit for the Tank and maybe saves having to heal a good DPS at all. Depending on your play style, I cast SSII when the duty starts, before each boss, and if given the chance before each new pull.

During combat, it's not terribly useful except on yourself to cast before party-wide/raid-wide damage. Mainly you're expending the same amount of MP that Cure III uses to get 10-18% of the total HP as a shield versus 550 potency of Cure III. If you keep casting it on a tank you will rapidly deplete your MP and you may as well just cast cure II repeatedly.

If you constantly see DPS losing SS, then they're not really making much of an effort to avoid taking damage, particularly BRD, SMN/ACN and BLM/THM, who should not be losing SS except to raid-wide damage.

Just a small correction here because of the fact MP effeciency is important to a WHM therefore it's important to use correct values.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

During combat, it's not terribly useful except on yourself to cast before party-wide/raid-wide damage. Mainly you're expending the same amount of MP that Cure III II uses to get 10-18% of the total HP as a shield versus 550 650 potency of Cure III II. If you keep casting it on a tank you will rapidly deplete your MP and you may as well just cast cure II repeatedly.

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Kisai probably just accidentally compared the MP values of Stoneskin II versus Cure III instead of Stoneskin to Cure II.

I keep it up on DPS and myself/fairy all the time.

I will only put Stoneskin on tank at the beginning of dungeons and before a boss.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Just a small correction here because of the fact MP effeciency is important to a WHM therefore it's important to use correct values.



Kisai probably just accidentally compared the MP values of Stoneskin II versus Cure III instead of Stoneskin to Cure II.

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I actually got it from here http://www.ffxivinfo.com/class/conjurer.php which Cure III and Stoneskin say 399MP at level 50.
Stoneskin II is 532MP and applied to X many players in the party, so if you have 4 players it's as efficient as one proactive Cure I (4 x 133MP) on each of them, and if you have 8 players it's twice as efficient. But you can't cast it during battle so it's moot.

I spam SS on tank when s/he receives that dreaded healing debuff.

As WHM, I cast SS on MT when the boss is preparing for something big. If I SCH, Succor.

As PLD, same thing as WHM when boss is preparing something big and I popped my defensive cooldowns already.

SS, in general, is very situational in nature but should not be out of your hotbar for its utility.

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When should WHM use Stoneskin I?

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When a hit is incoming that is able to onehit fully healed ppl.

To prevent some debuffs.

The toads also don't drag you when shield is up ;)

SS is damage mitigation and it's main use is to reduce large damage on certain attacks focused on the Tank. Titan in HM and EX has one though it doesn't do damage anymore, Ramuh has one, Odin is probably a better example now, Chrysalis has it's triple spark which SS helps a lot on it means you don't need to do a big panic heal. When speed running i like to use SS between large trash pulls because it gives the Tank some time to collect the mobs without already taking damage. SS can also make certain debuffs not hit that depend on an attack hitting you to stick. WoD second boss is a recent example of this when it does it's heatwave attack. If you have SS on yourself or anyone else in your party they won't take the debuff and can carry on doing actions as normal.

It's a tactical spell you have which has various uses especially in certain situations like with solo Tanking some bosses. Basically once you get a feel for the fight you will understand when it's best to use it.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I actually got it from here http://www.ffxivinfo.com/class/conjurer.php which Cure III and Stoneskin say 399MP at level 50.
Stoneskin II is 532MP and applied to X many players in the party, so if you have 4 players it's as efficient as one proactive Cure I (4 x 133MP) on each of them, and if you have 8 players it's twice as efficient. But you can't cast it during battle so it's moot.

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Comparing Stoneskin II (multi target) with cure I (single target) is a bad idea to begin with.
It looks much different if you compare it to a group heal like medica.

Imo, you should only use Stoneskin:
a) pre pull buff
b) full party content with mechanics/big hits that might kill someone.

Situation b) is not only for tanks. I.e it may also safe the life of a low max-HP (maybe ressed) partymember on primals signature moves.
In almost every other situation a heal is more efficient than Stoneskin.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Just a small correction here because of the fact MP effeciency is important to a WHM therefore it's important to use correct values.



Kisai probably just accidentally compared the MP values of Stoneskin II versus Cure III instead of Stoneskin to Cure II.

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Just to jump back to this for a moment. StoneSkin I is 266MP in the game, why the Wiki's say 399, I have no idea. That makes it use the same MP as Cure II. As Cure II can cure well over 25% of some tanks HP without a crit, it will likely not very MP efficient to use on the tank in lieu of a Cure. More to the point Cure III is 505MP.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Comparing Stoneskin II (multi target) with cure I (single target) is a bad idea to begin with.
It looks much different if you compare it to a group heal like medica.

Imo, you should only use Stoneskin:
a) pre pull buff
b) full party content with mechanics/big hits that might kill someone.

Situation b) is not only for tanks. I.e it may also safe the life of a low max-HP (maybe ressed) partymember on primals signature moves.
In almost every other situation a heal is more efficient than Stoneskin.

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Indeed. Medica is closer to 3 Cure I's in MP usage but isn't as potent as such, which means you need to hit 4 or more party members who have damage for it to be worth it. Hence why the most MP efficient way to heal is to always use Cure I unless the time requirements don't let you. (Party sustaining repeat bossroom-wide AOE damage.)

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Just to jump back to this for a moment. StoneSkin I is 266MP in the game, why the Wiki's say 399, I have no idea.

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This is actually why I tend not to trust websites for specific MP costs anymore. I've noticed quite a few sites have MP and potency errors when I was trying to find a Potency/MP efficiency for Stone and Stone II and eventually just relied on the in game tooltip for the information.

Random tidbit of information - both Stone and Stone II have similar Potency/MP. If you're looking to conserve MP while adding a little DPS, Stone provides better MP efficiency for the same damage/MP (unless my math is horribly wrong)

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

This is actually why I tend not to trust websites for specific MP costs anymore. I've noticed quite a few sites have MP and potency errors when I was trying to find a Potency/MP efficiency for Stone and Stone II and eventually just relied on the in game tooltip for the information.

Random tidbit of information - both Stone and Stone II have similar Potency/MP. If you're looking to conserve MP while adding a little DPS, Stone provides better MP efficiency for the same damage/MP (unless my math is horribly wrong)

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When I went down the rabbit hole looking up how other people have calculated things, they keep going "constant"... ignoring what the constant really is, and everyone coming up with different ones. So I -did- eventually find a "perfect" formula that works at level 50, but I kinda need to get someone to repeat everything I did with a midlander CNJ/WHM/SCH to confirm it works at any other level. The midlander is 1 PIE point different from the Miqo'te Sunseeker. When I have something more solid maybe I'll share it.

The "Constant" thus far the base stat (eg pie-race bonus) that isn't affected by bonus points or gear.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

When I went down the rabbit hole looking up how other people have calculated things, they keep going "constant"... ignoring what the constant really is, and everyone coming up with different ones. So I -did- eventually find a "perfect" formula that works at level 50, but I kinda need to get someone to repeat everything I did with a midlander CNJ/WHM/SCH to confirm it works at any other level. The midlander is 1 PIE point different from the Miqo'te Sunseeker. When I have something more solid maybe I'll share it.

The "Constant" thus far the base stat (eg pie-race bonus) that isn't affected by bonus points or gear.

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I'm, uh, not sure what this comment has to do with the MP efficiency comment I was trying to make.

Personally, I've found it prudent to try and bounce a Stoneskin on the tank at the end of an encounter, like one enemy at around 20%, and the fight will probably end in five seconds, and everyone runs off. Out-of-battle regen should make up for the HP you didn't heal while casting SS, and they get a little leeway on the next encounter for building up some enmity before you need to heal (and, thus, start building enmity yourself.)

on a healing intensive fight, that 10% max hp shield an off or main tank pld can dish out can save the raid from a potential wipe. i guess that's one good use of stoneskin 1....

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Hmm. You're not waiting on the cleric stance CD at that point? Usually I have to get 1 non-swift holy off before the timer's expired.

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Depends on when you flip it-on (and type of pull). If it's immediately before, yes you will end up waiting unless you manually get another off which is likely a good idea. But if they already have stoneskin on and you know the damage output to expect you could swift one and then get out of stance to handle heals. Of course it's all situational and for extra meat pulls you probably want to get the DS+regen up first before stance.

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Originally Posted by rawker

on a healing intensive fight, that 10% max hp shield an off or main tank pld can dish out can save the raid from a potential wipe. i guess that's one good use of stoneskin 1....

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Yep, and for coil bosses with tank buster hits it's generally recommended for that buffer. Otherwise you have to land a properly timed cure spell to land on the hit.

When I mess up and cause party wipe, I stone skin my face. (J/K)

Other than what ppl have said, I apply stoneskin to dps that I just raised.

BTW, I find swift cast stoneskin is useful b/c stone skin has long cast time.

Thanks everyone definitely a huge help. I've been trying to cast it before pulls but some tanks just rush off which is fine but always before a boss even if the tank is already running to it, which seems to be most times. I'm just at Cutter's Cry now but so far I haven't really found any time where it's been like thank God I used Stoneskin. I do on everyone before bosses, or sometimes I will on a melee DPS before a pull just to give them some extra while I focus on the tank. I'm not sure if it's bad/good to use Regen a lot but lately I've been waiting for the tank to pull lots of aggro and then when he's at 85-90% HP I hit him with Regen which I've found on these dungeons seems to take care of most healing for me on him, allowing me to either cleric stance and DPS a little, or focus on the mechanics of the battle instead. I find Regen is handy as well if a DPS takes damage especially a ranged one where they might be down to 70% health due to some aoe or something, where they aren't actually under attack, so instead of curing them I just hit them with Regen while moving and let it heal them and so on while I bring focus back to the tank.

*Old lady voice* Back in the old days, we used to have to Stoneskin everyone one at a time. And those times were hard!

In all seriousness, you should try to keep Stoneskin on people as much as possible. A SCH who has shields (and has to spend a lot of time casting buffs, omfg) you can get away with just Stoneskinning yourself and the tank. But for a WHM, as your only source of mitigation, you should have it on everyone as often as you can (excluding the middle of boss fights unless it's a special fight like t9 and everyone is i110 and clicked off echo). I've had Stoneskin save a couple of positional happy melee before, so it's definitely worth it.

Since people like to run without waiting for anything, it's usually best to re-apply Stoneskin to melee (if it comes off) when you have 1-2 mobs still up, as they (in theory) should be smart enough to stay out of trouble for a few seconds. Ranged DPS you can get away with applying it as it falls off (unless the mobs cast lots of AoEs, then you might want to hold off just in case). And the tank I usually Stoneskin at around 50-25% of the final mobs HP, this usually helps make sure its on before the next group so I don't accidentally aggro them (which still happens more often than I'd like *sigh* Did you know PLDs will sometimes pull using Sprint? Yeah, that's a thing. ._.).

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Originally Posted by technole

Depends on when you flip it-on (and type of pull). If it's immediately before, yes you will end up waiting unless you manually get another off which is likely a good idea. But if they already have stoneskin on and you know the damage output to expect you could swift one and then get out of stance to handle heals. Of course it's all situational and for extra meat pulls you probably want to get the DS+regen up first before stance.

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Oh, makes sense. Yes, I've usually been doing the DS + regen first. But if I go into the pull with cleric first, I could stun and then do that... hm. I might have to try that.

Pretty much to help tanks, or sometimes dps, survive big hits that may potentially 1-shot them. This pretty much only apply to end-game content though. Anything other than that don't really matter at all. I would say cast it when you have nothing better to do but might as well throw in an Aero in those cases.