Coil groups don't want dragoons?

I play on brynhildr and most of the statics only seem to want ninjas and monks, when I ask if my dragoon can join I get told they don\\'t want to waste a slot. Is there actual decent reason for not bringing a dragoon or is it just their personal opinion? I know we don\\'t help any other class but bard and fellow dragoons out but I\\'d like to think we can still be useful in raids.

Sounds like stupidity to me.

I'm assuming it's due to the fact that DRG has the least amount of utility and party-synergy, save with BRD. They also have a reputation of attracting bad players who can't optimize DPS properly, so the job comes with a bit of a stigma. That being said, when played properly (and I mean properly), they can achieve the highest DPS output on most fights, especially fights with large gaps in combat. Yes MNK has the overall highest DPS output in the game, but due to the nature of fights in FFXIV and how some of them force MNKs to lose GL stacks, this isn't always the case outside of tank-n-spank fights. MNK is really more valuable for Mantra and Dragon Kick's -10% INT debuff. NIN has the highest amount of utility and survivability of all Melee jobs, with only slightly less overall DPS than MNK/DRG. Not only that, but the buffs/debuffs they can apply benefit the entire party rather than specific jobs. Because of this, NIN is usually favored over DRGs.

My raid group has a DRG who knows how to really play the job. It's his raw ability that allows DRG to shine. Since DRG is really only there for the DPS, the player needs to know how to maximize it. A bad DRG offers very little to the party, which is why most parties will take the easy route and just go MNK/NIN for their groups.

Personal opinion mostly. Right now between the 3 melee dps my order of priority would be mnk > nin > drg. Mnk will be top dps if keep GL up, Nin

They probably aren't groups you'd want to join anyway.

One of our statics have a Dragoon. There is no reason not to have a dragoon. Some people just have biases.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

They probably aren't groups you'd want to join anyway.

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This. If the group has any shortcomings they seem like the type who would peg dps issues on the drg.

Ultimately, skill > all. I can understand desiring a monk for progression (the difference DK makes blows my mind sometimes in t13). But if you're getting rejected from the other melee spot simply because you're a drg then I can't imagine anything good would come of joining those parties.

Those guys were probably idiots and you will have way more fun without them.

My static's Dragoon not only kicks ass in terms of dps. I also really appreciate to have him on my side because he s also able to help me on fast burst/aoe phases. He s definitely my favorite dude.

That bias comes from pre 2.4 buffs. The dragoon "dark ages" are over and they are perfectly viable. As for a priority system for melee all three are good. In a perfect world yes, MNK is top DPS, but everyone know how stupid coil can get, real quick, evening all three of the melee out.

OP... where are you at content-wise?

Actually there is a good reason why some group prefer nin/monk over Drg. In final coil t12-13, the boss sometime do really massive aoe damage and dragon kick really reduce the damage. Sometime 10% damage reduction is difference between surviving or wipe. That is not to say drg doesn't do good damage, they do but they lack certain utility in end game raid group

OP, dragoon is great dps but if I have the option I'll still take a monk over dragoon because of dragon kick. Not to say dragoons can't work. It's just easier having a monk. However, maybe this was a fluff excuse for rejecting you? Did you have the experience they needed? What is your gear like?

I recently cleared t9 (last week) and have fully upgraded Ironworks with diamond spear(not good, I know)
Not very experienced in final coil though so maybe it was a fluff. Thanks for input guys. Just didn't want to be gearing something that no one wants/needs for raids.

U sounds fine geared for a guy about to start t10. Theres a drg in my group and he's great really. Never once did I ever consider replacing him.

I love dragoons, they buff my damage :D

Also at this stage of the raid season it doesn't matter what classes u bring to coil. With nearish 130 ilvl nobody is gonna cry for lack of nins trick attack, and dragonkick is hardly needed now with the hp everyone has nowadays. Disembowel is really great for bards :D

Also I have the feeling se really aren't finished with the buffing they would like to give dragoons. If I was a dragoon main I'd be looking forward to that expansion quite a lot ^^

give them finger & try to find another group. There is no reason to not pick a DRG as DPS for coil static

Hello, Dragoon here. My nickname in my static is DisemBro.

We have both a DRG (me) and a MNK in my group which works really well - our bard handles TP problems very well on his own so we don't really feel the lack of a ninja for T10 and T11. That said, I'm a dragoon and have been top DPS in my group fairly consistently, occasionally ending up second after the monk who has similar gear or the bard who's got a Yoichi Zeta (I use Diamond Spear). Dragoons work very well with bards and all FCoB groups will have a bard. That said, all three melee jobs are fairly balanced at this point. Dragoons still tend to take a lot of heat because there's a disproportionate amount of bad players using them, but that's been the case since closed beta. :P

We used to have a DRG in our group but he ended up switching to MNK.

Thing is you have to look at the available slots. You need 2 tanks in final coil cause Ugghhh tank swap mechanics made their triumphant return... 2 healers is a given, you need a BLM for certain Magic damage mechanics and SMN doesn't cut it, a bard is great for foe since you have that blm, paeon and ballad also. So that leaves 2 slots. MNK offers dragon kick which helps reduce damage from certain magic attacks so more likely to bring a mnk than a drg, so that leaves one spot, which is more likely to go to NIN than drg, since although drg offers the BRD a 10% piercing buff, the NIN offers the Mnk goad which means the BRD won't have to paeon as often. NIN has less positional requirements than drg and also can offer some magic damage with ninjutsu to help with those magic mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

MNK offers dragon kick which helps reduce damage from certain magic attacks so more likely to bring a mnk than a drg, so that leaves one spot, which is more likely to go to NIN than drg, since although drg offers the BRD a 10% piercing buff, the NIN offers the Mnk goad which means the BRD won't have to paeon as often. NIN has less positional requirements than drg and also can offer some magic damage with ninjutsu to help with those magic mechanics.

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Bard has to put up paeon just as much because NIN burns TP at the same rate MNKs do. I do not know where this argument came from (it is not just you saying it) but it needs to die in a fire some where over yonder.

Also NIN magic DMG from mudra is trivial in the grand scheme of the entire fight.

Hmm, a lot of people talking about this as if they only want 1 melee compositions. What happened to the double melee norm? :P

If you only have 1 in the group then I can kind of understand a group preferring Monk / Ninja simply because of the gap in utility. But anyway, I'll be embarrassed if he sees this, but our group's DRG always pulls ahead without fail on fights with some movement / drop-offs. Like others have said, what they lack in utility they make up for in more reliable and consistent direct damage. They're especially great at mowing down adds and have better AOE, which can be useful in T13 for example. Countless successful groups don't discriminate against DRGs anyway, so don't stress yourself over those nitpicky ones. DRGs are very respectable DPS.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Bard has to put up paeon just as much because NIN burns TP at the same rate MNKs do. I do not know where this argument came from (it is not just you saying it) but it needs to die in a fire some where over yonder.

Also NIN magic DMG from mudra is trivial in the grand scheme of the entire fight.

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^ This a million times. It was relevant pre nin-nerf because nin could goad the mnk while haveing a lower tp consumption himself, generally lowering the need for paeon. Since nerf though, bard has to play paeon for nin anyway so it doesn't matter. Only way to avoid early/multiple paeon's for melees is going with double nin and have them goad each other.

Also, a few other facts:

- Mnk was highest ST dps at i110. At i130 though nin and mnk are the same with nin having the advantage of not losing a ton of dps by losing gl3 and having better burst and a dps increase for the whole raid in the form of trick attack.
- The difference between nin/mnk and dragoon ST dps at i130 is negligible. If you have a kickass brd though that pulls 480 or even 500+ dps consitently, disembowel alone will make up for the small difference, since this bards dps will go through the roof.

If anything we need to ask if mnk is still needed for anything... higher risk, but not higher reward... dragon kick is still the deciding factor. Does your raid need it because you're progressing fcob? Cool, pick up a mnk, it will increase your survivability and cause less heart attacks for your healers. Do you have shit on farm? No reason to bring a mnk, go with nin/nin or nin/drg for max deepz. At the end of the day though it doesn't matter when you have everything on farm, so pick whatever you like... ^^

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Originally Posted by Aeliott

Hmm, a lot of people talking about this as if they only want 1 melee compositions. What happened to the double melee norm? :P

If you only have 1 in the group then I can kind of understand a group preferring Monk / Ninja simply because of the gap in utility. But anyway, I'll be embarrassed if he sees this, but our group's DRG always pulls ahead without fail on fights with some movement / drop-offs. Like others have said, what they lack in utility they make up for in more reliable and consistent direct damage. They're especially great at mowing down adds and have better AOE, which can be useful in T13 for example. Countless successful groups don't discriminate against DRGs anyway, so don't stress yourself over those nitpicky ones. DRGs are very respectable DPS.

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Agreed. As I said before, my group uses MNK + DRG and it's great. Paeon is still needed even with NINs to keep the NIN itself up, so having Dragon Kick and a good DRG's reliable damage output, high uptime mobility and Disembowel? Good choice any day.

If this game was stricter and Final Coil wasn't so out geared at this point, I'd say those groups have a point. But this isn't the game we play, so those groups are pants on head stupid. Every DPS is fine for progression, especially if you're i120+. You don't even need DK/Mantra anymore, so your slot shouldn't be filled with a MNK because "We need DK!". If I were recruiting for a static at this point, or even just for a turn, I'd take any 2 melee DPS I could find.

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Originally Posted by Omni-Vocational_Ryan

I play on brynhildr and most of the statics only seem to want ninjas and monks, when I ask if my dragoon can join I get told they don\\'t want to waste a slot. Is there actual decent reason for not bringing a dragoon or is it just their personal opinion? I know we don\\'t help any other class but bard and fellow dragoons out but I\\'d like to think we can still be useful in raids.

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At risk of calling you out, you're probably exaggerating. You probably asked one or two groups, and they declined because of you, not your job. Melee is pretty balanced right now and raiders know it. The choice really comes down to what utility you want. First and foremost raid groups are looking for the right person, unless they're crazy dedicated.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

If this game was stricter and Final Coil wasn't so out geared at this point, I'd say those groups have a point. But this isn't the game we play, so those groups are pants on head stupid. Every DPS is fine for progression, especially if you're i120+. You don't even need DK/Mantra anymore, so your slot shouldn't be filled with a MNK because "We need DK!". If I were recruiting for a static at this point, or even just for a turn, I'd take any 2 melee DPS I could find.

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This guy gets it. Most people are i130 just from WoD and Poetics. You can walk into T10 with 6-7k HP and thats enough for T13.

Like have been mentioned, DK and Mantra doesn't mean anything anymore... so MNK doesn't really have more useful utility than DRG at the moment.

MNK and NIN have higher potential DPS than DRG, but the funny thing is that very few people optimize their DPS anyways...

A good BLM can produce more DPS than a big portion of the melee DPS doing Final Coil. Just as an example, as my main is BLM... And if you compare many melee DPS numbers, you'll probably see DRG/MNK/NIN all pretty even.

It all comes down to how good the player is. These comparisons between DPS, is only really relevant if everyone is at the exact same skill level.

Also, MNK's will lose GL and might not be able to hit all their positionals, which means they don't have the highest DPS anymore

As a dragoon in Brynhildrs end game progression world I can tell you this is simply not true OP. There are a lot of raid teams clearing Final Coil on our sever that utilize a dragoon.

From what I've seen Monk and DRG will be about tied at BiS gear in terms of dps, with Nin faintly behind, but Nin makes up for that by having the highest raid dps boost (slightly higher than DRG's with a good Bard). Really, the one that becomes most outdated with gearing would likely be the Monk, depending simply on whether Mantra and Dragon Kick will actually save a nuke- or AoE- heal, conserving mana (and thereby caster and Bard dps, via Foes over Ballad) or keeping the SCH from having to leave Cleric Stance. All in all, they're very, very balanced.

Tldr: Good secondary stat availability on DRG gear and the DRG buff have made a world of difference. They're just fine, and quite balanced if you have a good Bard.

Hell, the main reason DRG wasn't even usable in FCOB was because of their inferior magic resistance and the outrageous amounts of unavoidable magic damage from mega flare, flames of rebirth, et al making them require babysitting, and H-thrust being too hard to maintain due to the positioning requirements of some bosses. That's been fixed by putting their mdef on par with NIN/MNK and making them not need to do impossible/excessively cumbersome positioning in places like T11.

There's few downsides to having a competent DRG now, and a decent (but not auto-pick) upside if you have a kickass BRD.

If they are too worried about bringing a DRG, they are most likely not a good grp and are clutching at straws

I'm the DRG for two different FCoB statics and I consistently pull the highest DPS for both. Neither static has a MNK and we do miss having one, but it isn't essential (our fails are epic and unredeemable by any one person). We (my statics) aren't elite by any means, but making DRG work in a raid environment is definitely not impossible. When people reject a class, it is generally a matter of preference.

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Originally Posted by Rysstyl

I'm the DRG for two different FCoB statics and I consistently pull the highest DPS for both. Neither static has a MNK and we do miss having one, but it isn't essential (our fails are epic and unredeemable by any one person). We (my statics) aren't elite by any means, but making DRG work in a raid environment is definitely not impossible. When people reject a class, it is generally a matter of preference.

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We have both, and me and the MNK both do a little above 500 DPS in T10 and T11, so the jobs have certainly evened out since the 2.45 changes when played right. What does annoy me a little though is when PF farming groups specifically don't allow DRGs "just because" - I can understand wanting a NIN if you're not gonna take a BRD, but when TP management isn't an issue (and it really shouldn't be in T10 unless your SCH is Selening) they're really just limiting themselves as well as us.

I agree, I hate being told I have to sit out.

I don't see the issue in bringing a DRG. Gear is so potent now that really, the only mitigation you'd need is a Virus + Succor raid wise. DRG, NIN and Monk are MORE THAN capable of holding AT LEAST 520 DPS in T10-12. If groups don't want DPS, then it is their fault, especially post lockout.

In some cases it comes down to utility. Let's say you have to pick between a drg who you know is good and a ninja you know is good. Their dps is about the same. But most would choose the ninja because they have far more to bring to the party. Same with monk, there have been plenty of times in t13 where me or one of my static members survived a mega/giga flare/ rage by the skin of their teeth. It just gives more wiggle room to mess up.

How strange, I don't see any of the pts blocking dragoons unless they already have one. Now Summoners of late have been treated like red-headed step children, and its really heart wrenching to watch.

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Originally Posted by TripPsyc

How strange, I don't see any of the pts blocking dragoons unless they already have one. Now Summoners of late have been treated like red-headed step children, and its really heart wrenching to watch.

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It's not incredibly common, but it does happen. I was looking for a T11 farming party a couple of days ago and found two that didn't allow DRGs (and didn't have any melee in the party already). As for SMNs, it's pretty much the same deal - while they got the short end of the stick on gear this time around, they're definitely not bad. Sad trend, this.

In short, dragoons do less damage and have less utility then those classes. So people often think of them as an inferior class. With that said, any group looking to do final coil should have no problems at all clearing content if they have a dragoon instead of a monk or ninja.

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Originally Posted by SwarleyMcSwarls

In short, dragoons do less damage and have less utility then those classes. So people often think of them as an inferior class. With that said, any group looking to do final coil should have no problems at all clearing content if they have a dragoon instead of a monk or ninja.

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Except nothing does more damage than a DRG+BRD combo. And, to be honest, I've yet to see a ninja out-DPS me in any situation. Monks, occasionally, but never a ninja.

Still, it really doesn't matter at this point because anyone who is geared and skilled enough to do FCoB can do FCoB just fine with any class. Min/maxing farming party setups is just unfair though.