What if Paladins got a "Dragon Kick" ability?

Was talking about this randomly in FC chat the other day about what would happen in the game of if the Dragon Kick Affect (10% Blunt Resist/INT down) was made as the third part of the non-enmity combo following Riot Blade.

Thematically this could be justified by the third part of the combo involving the shield, or perhaps a Pommel attack, or Blunt side of the sword.

I'm told often by our Ninja as Warrior how much it improves his DPS if I keep the slashing up, I assume this could help Monk in similar ways, and make for an interesting bonus for Paladins in terms of having a full three part non-enmity combo while off tanking, helping contribute to reducing damage out, and make Paladins as valuable and synergistic with Monks as Warriors are with Ninjas and Dragoons are to Bards.

The blunt resistance down has no synergy with his own kit (no enmity Bonus on that combo and PLD deal slashing damage) making it a mostly useless skill except in very specific circumstances. Then it kind of encroaches upon one of MNK's unique strengths. For the synergy I would rather just see DRK have Blunt damage, even though they used a giant sword. Also, PLD already have their own Unique damage reduction in Rage of Halone's STR down and an aoe blind.

To be fair the blind is pretty close to useless in a raid environment.

Most of the party utility that PLD seemingly offers is useless: blind is useless, shield bash is useless, pacification is useless. Only thing it has is stoneskin (which isn't even one of their skills) and strength down, Cover is ok but would benefit more if it could protect against magic damage as well.

As for what abilities could be added I'll wait and see what they get in Heavensward first.

The Int down part would be advantageous in magic damage heavy fights where Rage of Halone's debuff doesn't do anything, but it would likely be unused unless the action that applied it had other uses.

PLD definitely needs something in terms of utility or I don't see many serious FCs bringing it in Heavensward over WAR and DRK (whom I imagine will have SOME sort of utility).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Most of the party utility that PLD seemingly offers is useless: blind is useless, shield bash is useless, pacification is useless. Only thing it has is stoneskin (which isn't even one of their skills) and strength down, Cover is ok but would benefit more if it could protect against magic damage as well.

---

I agree that Paly could use some more utility, but you can't call can their utility useless, it's far from it. A repeatable GCD stun is very powerful. No one else can chain stun and it's been critical to strategy in many fights. They're the only tank with silence. And, while the pacify doesn't do much (IMO it should reduce autoattack damage), Swipe is atleast a DPS increase.

It's only really deficient in a world where it gains nothing from Heavensward or DRK replicates all of the currently unique aspects. But I don't think it will. It will probably be built to synergize well with either tank, like we've heard from Astrologian.

Why not a second combo out of Savage Blade. While Rage of Halone reduces STR, make this 3rd combo reduce INT and MND, not to mention increased enmity. I just feel that Fast Blade -> Riot Blade is already complete that I can only see it branching out of Fast Blade -> Savage Blade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

Why not a second combo out of Savage Blade. While Rage of Halone reduces STR, make this 3rd combo reduce INT and MND, not to mention increased enmity. I just feel that Fast Blade -> Riot Blade is already complete that I can only see it branching out of Fast Blade -> Savage Blade.

---

Well, it breaks the formula some, would be nice to have a non-enmity 3 part while off tanking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rbstr

A repeatable GCD stun is very powerful. No one else can chain stun and it's been critical to strategy in many fights.

---

I'm curious what fights you're talking about. Leviathan is the only one I can think of where people chainstun, and that's really only in PUGs. Any group with competent DPS will burn the mob before it gets out of its first stun.

I'm not saying it's worthless of course, but it's far from useful. STR down is really all they have going for them, and that's minor compared to WAR's flat 10% down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaft

Snip.

---

The shield is their special ability. 35% perma blockrate is very nice and is the reason a lot of groups use Swordoath PLDs as MTs in FCoB.

HG is the best Defensive CD and can cheese major boss attacks allowing healers to DPS or regen mana.

The chain stunning was very useful for initial Levi farms, it was also useful for Ifrit and in most dungeons. (nothing coil tier that I can think of)

The silence was useful in T1,T2,T9 along with lessor fights/dungeons.

DRK will need something potent to compete with PLD for progression content. Otherwise I could see it being PLD/DRK or PLD/WAR then once we are over geared WAR/DRK.

Dreadknights in T5, when it was current, is another example of a place where it was very useful.

When I said useless I meant in most cases. Specific mechanics are an exception, for example storms eye and storms path are always useful for either tank.
PLD utility is very situational, especially stuns and silence as only a handful of enemies in raids are actually affected by them. They are useful when they are needed but they have to be intended to do so on specific encounters, especially the stuns.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SirTaint

snip

---

I have to disagree.

First, tank damage intake is not a problem in this game, and I don't see that changing in Alexander. It's why tanks wear STR accessories instead of VIT; the damage output gained is far more important than the increased damage intake. Second, while the things you listed are nice, none of them are unique to PLD. WAR can holmgang in place of HG and just have the healer drop a Bene on him at the end. Multiple classes can stun. Multiple classes can silence.

Second, what makes WAR a permanent fixture in raids is slashing resistance down (which can be replaced by a NIN) and raid damage down by 10% (which CANNOT be replaced, yet). Until another class brings the utility that WAR brings, WAR will not be replaced. On the other hand, PLD can easily be replaced. Their only real raid utility, STR down, effects only auto-attacks and a choice few abilities (since the large majority of attacks are magic based).

So honestly, if DRK gets any sort of raid utility (magic down, int down, etc), I can easily see PLD being placed aside in serious progression groups. What I'm hoping will happen is PLD will obtain better utility in the expansion, and DRK will gain INT down so that MNKs aren't a necessity for cutting edge raiding.

the advantage to pld is that it requires less thought and less foresight to play than war, the mitigation is there all the time, unlike war, you dont have to work for it
dont buff it, it doesnt need it
something to combo off of riot would be nice though

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aisustrong

the advantage to pld is that it requires less thought and less foresight to play than war, the mitigation is there all the time, unlike war, you dont have to work for it
dont buff it, it doesnt need it
something to combo off of riot would be nice though

---

If anything I think more utility would work better for that kind of design. Take bard for example, it's one of the easier dps roles to use but has a lot of utility to complement that kind of design choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Most of the party utility that PLD seemingly offers is useless: blind is useless, shield bash is useless, pacification is useless. Only thing it has is stoneskin (which isn't even one of their skills) and strength down, Cover is ok but would benefit more if it could protect against magic damage as well.

As for what abilities could be added I'll wait and see what they get in Heavensward first.

---

YEP!

Its sad how most of PLD utility is absolutely useless in a raid environment.

Raid utility is indeed bland unless AOE physical attacks is big in a fight. If anything dark knights might get int down

My general thoughts on stuff brought up.
- Agree so much that Cover needs to be both physical and magic damage since end-game is so magic damage heavy.
- PLD definitely needs a debuff that increases group/raid damage, not big on the blunt damage though as it seems like an odd fit.
- So much being immune to Blind and Pacification needs to be dialed back a bit.
- Definitely hoping DRK gets magic/int themed party/raid debuffs to help fill that niche.

My only issue with riot blade being made into a repeatedly used combo is that it would be a TP monster.

I think that it would actually be more interesting for PLD to get a SPELL that combos with riot blade. Possibly Astra or dia. A light elemental spell that has extremely high potency, like 800 or more, and high MP cost, like 500+ MP, (the high potency is to make up for the fact Paladin has no magic damage and low INT). And make it grant some kind of debuff like lowers opponent's magic resistance by 5%. Making it combo well with itself and with mages. Then make the combo bonus something like, performing it after riot blade makes it AoE, or after riot blade it is half MP cost.

Or maybe even both these effects, based on what you combo off of, performing it after rage of halone makes it AoE while performing it after riot blade makes it half MP cost.

I have to agree with Zaft here. The only reason we even bring a PLD to raid content is because we only have 2 tanks and a second WAR doesn't really provide much in terms of storm debuff uptime. PLD has some nice stuff like HG and Cover to help cheese mechanics but like mentioned before, it's too situational. If DRK provides any sort of valuable utility, PLD is as good as gone. For example, if DRK gets an INT down debuff to MNK's dragon kick, it removes the requirement for MNK in progression content.

PLD needs some help to provide some real utility to raids. I'd like to see PLD with some new defensive skills available that will help out the party, like a nerfed version of Testudo. I'd also like to see PLD's playstyle become more interesting instead of just a 123 bot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cabalabob

My only issue with riot blade being made into a repeatedly used combo is that it would be a TP monster.

I think that it would actually be more interesting for PLD to get a SPELL that combos with riot blade. Possibly Astra or dia. A light elemental spell that has extremely high potency, like 800 or more, and high MP cost, like 500+ MP, (the high potency is to make up for the fact Paladin has no magic damage and low INT). And make it grant some kind of debuff like lowers opponent's magic resistance by 5%. Making it combo well with itself and with mages. Then make the combo bonus something like, performing it after riot blade makes it AoE, or after riot blade it is half MP cost.

Or maybe even both these effects, based on what you combo off of, performing it after rage of halone makes it AoE while performing it after riot blade makes it half MP cost.

---

riot restores mp, could just have its next in line restore tp
and a level 52 trait to lower tp cost of riot

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rawker

Why not a second combo out of Savage Blade. While Rage of Halone reduces STR, make this 3rd combo reduce INT and MND, not to mention increased enmity. I just feel that Fast Blade -> Riot Blade is already complete that I can only see it branching out of Fast Blade -> Savage Blade.

---

Why not a 4th aoe combo that instakills every mob?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riyos

Why not a 4th aoe combo that instakills every mob?

---

I still think Paladin needs a gun.

I really don't want an ability on PLD that only helps to buff MNKs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I still think Paladin needs a gun.

---

What about a gunblade/gunshield?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Riepah

I really don't want an ability on PLD that only helps to buff MNKs.

---

It lowers INT. I.e. reduces party damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

What about a gunblade/gunshield?

---

Only if you defect the Garleans.

As someone who prefers to main as PLD over WAR, even when DRK comes around (though DRK will easily overtake WAR in 2nd most preferred Tank for me when it comes around I believe), reading the words "PLD will get tossed aside when DRK comes around" makes me cringe. PLD had better get some damn good skills with the release of the Heavensward expansion.

I don't like the idea of continuing to main as a PLD, only for players to look at me and scoff at me with elitist views, claiming... no... DEMANDING I switch to a different Tank. I already get such remarks on rare occasions whenever I play as a SMN. I sure as hell don't need to listen to that crap while running around as a PLD in Heavensward. I'll play as any class I want regardless, but I'm sick of getting such remarks.

Here's to hopping that Heavensward will find a way to make all classes relatively equal to one another, making it so that ALL roles have important things that only they can bring.

Magic Defense Down - Combo'd off Riot Blade.

Make it happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke

I don't like the idea of continuing to main as a PLD, only for players to look at me and scoff at me with elitist views, claiming... no... DEMANDING I switch to a different Tank.

---

2.0 WAR sends it's regards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke

snip

---

I tried to emphasize this in my previous posts, but this is only really a concern with serious, min-maxing groups. It's not going to effect casual or midcore players.

That being said, if you're a hardcore player, you should be prepared for this. I had every healer leveled in WoW so I could swap jobs if one got viciously beaten with the nerf stick.

Also, posting from mobile shows me as a Hyur while posting from home shows me as a Lalafell. That's interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

2.0 WAR sends it's regards.

---

I wasn't around for that at the time, but from what I've read, it was... yeah. It was just as bad. My condolences to the past time WARs who were nagged to play as a PLD instead.

@Zaft: Fair enough. All my classes are leveled up to cap anyway for similar reasons. Not that I focus on raiding the Binding Coil of Bahamut anyway.

I feel like Paladin's need something to make them really stand out. I love the class, but it made me sad when I got my Warrior leveled up and realized it was just more fun and engaging to play. It made me also realize that Warriors feel like raging barbarians on the battlefield, while Paladin feels kinda like a schmuck with a sword and shield. I wanted to be a Paladin, protecting my allies and smiting my enemies, and instead I feel more like a Seasame Street character going "1-2-3, Flash, 1-2-3, Fracture, 1-2-3, Swipe..." when I can't weave in Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn. (To be fair, when you can weave the two off-cooldown abilities in, it feels awesome. But that's still not as often as I'd prefer.)

I think the addition of some light magic (Like Cabalabob suggested) would go a long way. I feel like Riot Blade would be great if I had more reasons to use it. If I had a debuff spell, or Banish or something besides what's available, Riot Blade would see more use.

They do but it is for STR (Rage of Halone), if they also got one for INT then they'd just be OP, would kill one of the few reasons to have a monk in the party. Pointless to give them a slashing debuff as War and Nin each have a non-stackable debuff.

In terms of game balance this is a horrible idea. "Every" class offers something unique to it that others do not.

PLD - Rage of Halone
SCH/SMN - Supervirus
MNK - Dragon Kick
WAR - Storm's Path
BRD - Songs
NIN - TA, and to a lesser extent Goad
BLM - Apopcostasis
DRG - Disembowel
WHM - Shell

If you were to take MNK's, dragon kick and offer it to to PLD. Next thing you would have are MNKs screaming buffs because they offer absolutely 0 utility over other classes. And we have examples of this in this thread with people asking this to eliminate all reason to bring a class into their lineup. PLD does need something to make it interesting to play besides 1,2,3. Levels 51-60 are coming in the expansion so it safe to say it will probably get a few things added to the kit, a job skill at 55 and 60, and if classes aren't going to be shunned outright a couple skills/traits at 54, 58 and possibly at 60. To say PLD is going to be dropped due to it's current state in the expansion is shortsighted at best.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cabalabob

A light elemental spell that has extremely high potency, like 800 or more, and high MP cost, like 500+ MP, (the high potency is to make up for the fact Paladin has no magic damage and low INT).

---

Or just, you know, make the spell cost MP but scale off of Str :3 Which shouldn't be hard to do, if it's a skill/spell exclusive to PLD anyway. It'd pretty much be like how NIN's mudras count as magic attacks but still scale off of Dex.
(Cure is a different matter since it's crossclass.)