Opinions on superior body gear for SMN?

Hi guys, this is my first time posting here.
I just wanted to ask if you think I should keep using the Demon Robe of Casting or if I should use the Augmented IronWorks Doublet instead? I've asked around on my server and have received lots of different answers, some for changing to the augmented doublet, some against, any input would be appreciated.

Thanks. :)

I personally use the Demon Robe. As of right now, Spell Speed is a useless stat on Summoner, so you have a stat that isnt doing anything for you if you wear the ironworks.

Some SMNs I know argue that the 5 int 16 crit advantage the augmented IW coat has is worth more than the 31 set on the demon coat.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Some SMNs I know argue that the 5 int 16 crit advantage the augmented IW coat has is worth more than the 31 set on the demon coat.

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According to stat weights its correct.

IW Robe is BiS

5 INT 16 CHR is probably pretty close to the 31 DET on the i120, but that SS and VIT you get from the i130, while small bonuses indeed, are enough to push it over the top IMO.

I took the Demon Robe of Casting over the Augmented Top and never looked back. I am one of the rare SMNs however that feels 31 Determination is much stronger on SMN then 5 INT + 16 Crit when determining DoT damage. Personally, I've seen bigger gains over the long haul when I stacked Det while trying to get as much INT as possible after hitting my personal minimum to crit of about 530 after food.

I slightly walk away from the old stat weights when forming a gear set for SMN and I also think soft caps exist for crit so at some point once I reach a certain amount of crit, I pour everything else into maxing INT and DET.

The only downside to my thinking is kinda what Sleigh pointed out. Often enough with the i120 chest, somewhere around 5950 HP before I got all my left side gear. This is a dangerous number to be at sometimes as a caster for something like T13 that can hit you for some 5800+ numbers often.

I will be using the Demon Robe if I can ever get my hands on it.

I have both the Dreadwyrm and Augmented Robe. But that extra DET on dots and pet damage is just too good to pass up.

Just be ready to used Food on T13, even when maxed geared.

It takes 8 det to =1 int. So 31 det is like saying you have + 4 int?

Over all still get more dps out of the 130. Also the vit is important for end game raid as you have Lower HP, and the upgraded gear increases pet and also adds HP to pet as well.

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Originally Posted by Picori

It takes 8 det to =1 int. So 31 det is like saying you have + 4 int?

Over all still get more dps out of the 130. Also the vit is important for end game raid as you have Lower HP, and the upgraded gear increases pet and also adds HP to pet as well.

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That 8 Det = 1 INT calculation is not true. It's more like 3, if even - SMN DoTs (maybe all DoTs?) get affected very strongly by DET to the point where the i110 Book of Spades gives you more DoT damage per tick than i115 HA book, which not only has more INT but 2 more WD (but Ruin/Wind Blade/Fester does more with the HA book).

Yea Demon Robe does more damage from my testing.

It is just basic math

1 int = 0.284 det
1 int = 0.232 crit
1 int = 0.098 spell speed

demon robe = 31 x 0.284 det + 31 x 0.232 crit = 8.804 det + 7.192 crit = 15.996 int total
Augmented Robe = 47 x 0.232 crit + 33 x 0.098 spell speed = 10.904 crit + 3.234 spell speed = 14.138 int total
off stats overall difference = 1.858 more int from demon robe
all stats overall difference = 3.142 more int from Augmented Robe
result = Augmented Robe is better

IMO - Stat weights should be shown separately for Pet/Master.
I have no idea if those weights were calculated with Garuda, Ifrit or Titan or just the SMN by itself.

It would then be helpful if the Pet weights were listed being weighted against SMN stats as well. i.e. 1 INT may not effect the pet the same as the SMN

So without that, I think the current listed stat weights for SMN should be taken with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by Picori

It takes 8 det to =1 int. So 31 det is like saying you have + 4 int?

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That's incorrect. 1 det is 0.3 of a main stat.

So really, 31 det is closer to 9 int >.>

Damage-wise, the Demon Robe is slightly better due to how the stats weigh in (as explored by others). However, they are, effectively, very similar. I personally go for the Augmented IW Robe for a few reasons...

1) Although the Demon Robe stats are slightly better, it is a reaaaaally close comparison.
2) I prefer having more VIT, because having more HP means more survivability... Some people won't care about this, and indeed there are only a few fights where it matters... but I like having it on those rare occasions where I'll benefit from it.
3) I don't feel like farming WoD for a (VERY CLOSE) comparable piece... If I get it, great. If it doesn't drop, I won't drive myself nuts over it.

I would also like to note that although SS, right now, is the absolute WORST stat for SMN (next to overstacking Acc, of course), it isn't completely useless. It will help (slightly) with Ruin fillers. Along with the adjustments made a few weeks ago, there is a muuuuuch lower risk of going OOM with regular filler spells. So, the added speed there is not completely useless... just the lowest priority. :P

In the end, it really is up to you. I hope the varied answers have been helpful.

There was some post where it showed spellspeed affects garuda, but I don't know if it affects ifrit.

Also, I read on some summoner thread that only your weapon affects the damage your summon does. Ä

I haven't read more into those subjects nor have I made any tests. (I propably will once I get home from work and remember to do them) so I don't know for certain if these are true.

But if those two statements are correct I would say spellspeed weights more than stated earlier on this thread, and intelligence would scale less, assuming if accuracy and spellspeed affects garda, other 2nd stats would too and the claim of "only weapon affects the dmg" could had been that intelligence doesn't affect it, but the weapon damage, alongside 2nd stats.


So, if these two statements are indeed correct I would go and say the WoD chest piece is better.
But without any testing I can't guarantee that it is better, but still, the difference would be so marginal.


Edit: oh right and I don't even know if these things are already been factored into the stat weights posted earlier
As stated earlier I'm at work so this post might be a little skippy cause of phone.

The difference I think is very VERY slim. I tested both bodies multiple times and I come up with very similar numbers. So I think it's really just up to preference and if you have one versus the other.

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

There was some post where it showed spellspeed affects garuda, but I don't know if it affects ifrit.

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Does not effect Ifrit. Does effect Garuda - Correct

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Also, I read on some summoner thread that only your weapon affects the damage your summon does.

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MD, INT, DET, CRIT, SPD (Garuda only) all effect pet damage

The reason SPD is so bad is this -
2.5 GCD VS 2.3 GCD (203 Spell Speed) - All this equals is 2 Ruin casts (160 Potency) over the course of 60 seconds. Which is about a 2% increase in damage on SMN normal rotation (not including pet)
So @ 100 Spell Speed per 1% increase in Damage.

Compare that to Crit (Which effects dots as well as Ruins, Fester etc) @ ~ 28 Crit to 1% increase. (14 Crit = 1% crit chance @ 50% more damage)

So 1 Crit is about equal to 4 Spell Speed. Crit is weighted at 0.232 which puts SPD @ 0.06

Now let's include Ifrit due do it being far superior to Garuda who benefits 0 from Spell Speed and is roughly 35%-40% of SMN damage.

Changing that Spell Speed weight to - 0.036 overall.

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Why I think it's important to do pet weights on top of SMN weights.

As I think that current weights are calculated without the pet I will use them as a baseline. Using crit we can determine that (0.232 X 28 = 1% Damage increase) 6.496 or roughly the MD weight (28 X 0.232 = 6.496)

Testing Ifrit 1 MD is about a 1% Damage increase as well, but.....2.5 INT is also a 1% increase, 10 DET, and 28 Crit so you have

MD 2.5
INT 1
DET 0.25
Crit 0.09
SPD 0

put that beside the current SMN weights

MD 6.911
INT 1
DET 0.284
Crit 0.232
SPD 0.06

Equalize the pet weights to SMN weights (X 2.7664)
6.911
INT 2.7664
DET 0.6911
Crit - 0.25
SPD - 0

Then equalize the Ratio of Pet/SMN damage (60/40)

MD - 6.911 (both values add to this as they are the same)
INT - 0.6 + 1.1 = 1.7
DET - 0.1704 + 0.27664 = 0.447
Crit - 0.1392 + 0.1 = 0.2392
SPD - 0.036 + 0 = 0.036

Equalized to 1 INT

MD - 4.065
INT - 1
DET - 0.263
Crit - 0.1407
SPD - 0.021

- So by including the pet weights, it actually puts a ridiculous amount of emphasis on INT and DET. Like enough that you would chose body upgrades over a weapon as it only takes 4 INT to equal 1 MD.
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Comparing the Augmented Robe VS Demon Robe you then have AI - 12.8 VS DM -13.8

So really just about a 0.25% difference in favor of the Demon Robe

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

That 8 Det = 1 INT calculation is not true. It's more like 3, if even - SMN DoTs (maybe all DoTs?) get affected very strongly by DET to the point where the i110 Book of Spades gives you more DoT damage per tick than i115 HA book, which not only has more INT but 2 more WD (but Ruin/Wind Blade/Fester does more with the HA book).

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Some testing I've done on DRG suggests we're undervaluing DET at i130 (and on DRG, severely), but I haven't seen evidence suggesting that DoTs are affected by it any differently from normal potencies.

If there isn't a way for a SMN to plug actual damage-per-potency values into a sim, welp, sounds like someone needs to make one now :P

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

Some testing I've done on DRG suggests we're undervaluing DET at i130 (and on DRG, severely), but I haven't seen evidence suggesting that DoTs are affected by it any differently from normal potencies.

If there isn't a way for a SMN to plug actual damage-per-potency values into a sim, welp, sounds like someone needs to make one now :P

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Some testing I did back in i110 gear near the end of 2.3:

i110 book: 575 INT, 75 WD, 284 DET. Bio II ticks: 105 - 116. Bio ticks: 120 - 133. Wind Blade: 257 - 284. Ruin: 240 - 265.
i115 HA book: 578 INT, 77 WD, 253 DET. Bio II ticks: 104 - 115. Bio ticks: 121 - 134. Wind Blade: 259 - 286. Ruin: 241 - 266.

Taking out crits, of course. Numbers were taken by eye, not from any program, for accuracy's sake. Not sure if the results carry over to today's stat values, worth checking out probably for people with more interest in SMN than me.

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Originally Posted by SunnyHirose

Some testing I've done on DRG suggests we're undervaluing DET at i130 (and on DRG, severely), but I haven't seen evidence suggesting that DoTs are affected by it any differently from normal potencies.

If there isn't a way for a SMN to plug actual damage-per-potency values into a sim, welp, sounds like someone needs to make one now :P

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I haven't looked at a recent damage algorithm or know if there is one specifically for Dots (maybe there should be?)


But because DET is largely effected by WD/MD I think that the damage vs potency is higher on low potency attacks. Like as if skill potency is a small factor in the DET -> damage factor.

Crude example being

SMN

40, 35, 35 potency (Damage, 140, 125, 125) (DET Contribution to damage, 6, 5, 5) (Total Potency of skills 110 - DET damage 16 (4% Contribution))

BLM
170 Potency (Damage 620) (DET Contribution to damage 11)(Total Potency 170 - DET damage 11 (1.8% Contribution))
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So where you have a class with many low potency attacks (Monk/SMN/BRD) DET makes a larger contribution to damage.
VS Single Large attacks (>150 Potency I'd guess)

Edited: Purely Theoretical

I think what blurs that line is that there are so few Magic classes, so the auto attack damage causes a grey area when making stat weights for melee. AA being a large % of melee damage and having the greatest benefit from DET.

Where a direct comparison would be SMN VS BLM where you can plainly see the difference of the effect on DET when having mainly high vs low potency skills.

Where you have DRG vs MNK - where the weights look very similar even though they have way different styles.

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Of course it could just be as simple as there is a different formula for Dots, or due to the low potency skills having a lower rounding factor/variance.

40 Potency +/- 2 Potency (4 Potency Variance)
35 Potency +/- 1.75 Potency (3.5 Potency Variance)
300 Potency +/- 15 Potency (30 Potency Variance)

Giving the appearance that on average low potency skills have a greater benefit from DET due to rounding/5% damage swings.

Hmm, from my testing DET scales with BLM potency perfectly, IE if you gain X amount of damage on B2 (50 potency) it almost exactly is 6X the gain on Fire 1 (306 potency after AH3). Are those examples above actually tested or just theoretical?

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

But because DET is largely effected by WD/MD I think that the damage vs potency is higher on low potency attacks. Like as if skill potency is a small factor in the DET -> damage factor.

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I've seen people suppose this, too, but I've yet to see anything compelling to suggest that the damage isn't fundamentally some damage per potency multiplied by the potency even with small potencies.

What low potency attacks definitely have is lower numerical precision due to rounding. If I see attacks that are on average like 800 HP, then we can assume it's pretty good to within 0.125%, but if I see attacks that are 100 HP on average, then it's only pretty good to within 1%.

Very interesting, I've got a couple of questions re: Spell Speed & Garuda, and swapping loadouts after summoning.

1. If you summon Garuda with a lot of Spell Speed in your loadout, and then swap your gear to a Crit/Det loadout, does she retain the Spell Speed until resummoned/new area is loaded, or automatically inherit the Crit/Det instead? I know some attributes are retained by pets after gear is changed, though I don't have a good way to directly observe that except when it comes to VIT. I know VIT is retained based on my stats upon summoning because when spiritbonding stuff I'll go to Quarrymill, and equip my highest-level casting gear on left side, and all VIT/CRIT/DET accessories on the right side, summon Titan-egi and he'll have like 11,000ish HP... and then I'll swap out those VIT accessories with gathering accessories (with no VIT on them obviously) and swap out most of my casting gear with crafting/gathering stuff I want to Spiritbond, and naturally my HP will drop significantly... but as long as I don't resummon him or leave South Shroud, his HP stays at what it was from when I summoned him. And then if I reummon or teleport his HP gets recalculated. So that makes me wonder what other pet attributes are fixed even after a gearswap. Like if I popped an INT potion right before summoning Garuda.

2. Assuming Garuda did keep her Spell Speed settings after I swapped to Crit/Det gear for my own casting, would her autoattacks fire more quickly (by a small margin I'm guessing) or would it have exactly 0 impact on her recast time? Having her attacks crit more, might be worth more than a slight increase in their frequency, but then again she has no MP pool to worry about, so would be interesting to know. I wouldn't choose a loadout to optimize spell speed for the sake of Garuda, but if I was able to have different stats with her vs myself I wonder what the difference might be.

3. On that note, does Strength have anything to do with Ifrit-egi's melee attacks, or are they INT based? I'm guessing the latter, but if it used the player's base strength and I could put on STR accessories, summon Ifrit, and then swap my loadout, that would be interesting. While I don't have a way to parse data being on PS4, at least this is something I can play with using the Practice Dummy at my house. I can't imagine it's related to the Summoner's strength or else I would have heard something about it by now. I can experiment with this one at least when I get home.

Obviously changing my gear over and over in a dungeon run to resummon in each zone like I'm Lady Gaga in concert isn't something I would be putting my party through... the question's more academic than anything, and it could be helpful for like an EX Primal encounter or PVP where there is only one zone I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Buff_Archer

Very interesting, I've got a couple of questions re: Spell Speed & Garuda, and swapping loadouts after summoning.

1. If you summon Garuda with a lot of Spell Speed in your loadout, and then swap your gear to a Crit/Det loadout, does she retain the Spell Speed until resummoned/new area is loaded, or automatically inherit the Crit/Det instead? I know some attributes are retained by pets after gear is changed, though I don't have a good way to directly observe that except when it comes to VIT. I know VIT is retained based on my stats upon summoning because when spiritbonding stuff I'll go to Quarrymill, and equip my highest-level casting gear on left side, and all VIT/CRIT/DET accessories on the right side, summon Titan-egi and he'll have like 11,000ish HP... and then I'll swap out those VIT accessories with gathering accessories (with no VIT on them obviously) and swap out most of my casting gear with crafting/gathering stuff I want to Spiritbond, and naturally my HP will drop significantly... but as long as I don't resummon him or leave South Shroud, his HP stays at what it was from when I summoned him. And then if I reummon or teleport his HP gets recalculated. So that makes me wonder what other pet attributes are fixed even after a gearswap. Like if I popped an INT potion right before summoning Garuda.

2. Assuming Garuda did keep her Spell Speed settings after I swapped to Crit/Det gear for my own casting, would her autoattacks fire more quickly (by a small margin I'm guessing) or would it have exactly 0 impact on her recast time? Having her attacks crit more, might be worth more than a slight increase in their frequency, but then again she has no MP pool to worry about, so would be interesting to know. I wouldn't choose a loadout to optimize spell speed for the sake of Garuda, but if I was able to have different stats with her vs myself I wonder what the difference might be.

3. On that note, does Strength have anything to do with Ifrit-egi's melee attacks, or are they INT based? I'm guessing the latter, but if it used the player's base strength and I could put on STR accessories, summon Ifrit, and then swap my loadout, that would be interesting. While I don't have a way to parse data being on PS4, at least this is something I can play with using the Practice Dummy at my house. I can't imagine it's related to the Summoner's strength or else I would have heard something about it by now. I can experiment with this one at least when I get home.

Obviously changing my gear over and over in a dungeon run to resummon in each zone like I'm Lady Gaga in concert isn't something I would be putting my party through... the question's more academic than anything, and it could be helpful for like an EX Primal encounter or PVP where there is only one zone I suppose.

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1) I believe it was Spur? (forgetting atm) When used it reevaluates your stats and adjusts your pets accordingly. So to answer your question, no it wouldn't keep the buff after using said skills.

2) See 1.

3) No, only Int / Det directly influence pet damage.

(Don't want to create another SMN thread so asking here even if a bit off-topic)

Is there any discussion/link discussing crafted BiS for SMN? (e.g. what piece and what melds) Are there any crafted gear at all that beats DW and IW when melded?

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Hmm, from my testing DET scales with BLM potency perfectly, IE if you gain X amount of damage on B2 (50 potency) it almost exactly is 6X the gain on Fire 1 (306 potency after AH3). Are those examples above actually tested or just theoretical?

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Purely theoretical. I never pursued the reason for the great effect of DET on dot damage. Especially now.

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Originally Posted by Akariel

(Don't want to create another SMN thread so asking here even if a bit off-topic)

Is there any discussion/link discussing crafted BiS for SMN? (e.g. what piece and what melds) Are there any crafted gear at all that beats DW and IW when melded?

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Because pet damage relies so heavily on Int and you can't make good use of Spell Speed there are no crafted items that are comparable for SMN.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Because pet damage relies so heavily on Int and you can't make good use of Spell Speed there are no crafted items that are comparable for SMN.

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I wouldn't say Int doesn't have an affect on overall damage but I will say it's not as big as you or many others are assuming.

I've been at ilvl126 for a very long time using this build: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Q53Z, and I have managed to consistently outdps countless other well played SMNs at ilvl130 with better party setups then my own.

I am a very staunch believer that DET has a very big role in SMN damage overall. Bigger I would argue sometimes then INT.

Not many believe me on that front though but whatever.

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Originally Posted by Akariel

(Don't want to create another SMN thread so asking here even if a bit off-topic)

Is there any discussion/link discussing crafted BiS for SMN? (e.g. what piece and what melds) Are there any crafted gear at all that beats DW and IW when melded?

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Kirimu Boots of Casting is one of the only pieces worthy of being called BIS with 25 crit and 6 Acc melded in.

If you use most of the current 130 gear, you'll find that you're choosing between SS / DET or ACC/ Crit.

This leads you to stacking alot of Crit because you need the accuracy. However, Crit past 540 has diminishing returns from my testing so it is better to stack DET for that purpose. You also should maintain your spell speed somewhere in the 370-385 range to perform optimally (closer to 370 when possible). Dropping beneth 370 will lead to a many slow shadow flare casts and DoT casts.

The shoes in particular will help you pick up your crit to a respectable 525+once you have very high DET and overall will help you pull out really big numbers.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I wouldn't say Int doesn't have an affect on overall damage but I will say it's not as big as you or many others are assuming.

I've been at ilvl126 for a very long time using this build: http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Q53Z, and I have managed to consistently outdps countless other well played SMNs at ilvl130 with better party setups then my own.

I am a very staunch believer that DET has a very big role in SMN damage overall. Bigger I would argue sometimes then INT.

Not many believe me on that front though but whatever.

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I'm sure your performance as SMN alone should cause people to believe what you say about DET.

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I'm still partial to this build http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Q574 and I feel it might do slightly better coming in at ~ 7 INT higher, which I suspect comes in at +1% SMN damage and +2-3% pet damage. (Ifrit) (calculated without the use of food)
But practical use would always tell the real story.

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So even if the above set was better, it's only by just under 2% overall so well within the margin of skill vs skill.

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I'm really curious though about what sort of damage your Ifrit can do on a Dummy. Given my terrible gear, I'm doing ~170 with Ifrit (Dummy only). I'm very curious if my Ifrit stat weights would put you around 195-200 with Ifrit.
Rouse/Spur/Enkindle on CD using Crimson Cyclone and Flaming Crush on CD over 4 minutes.

Getting picked for Earthshaker as a SMN isn't very fun. I'll take the extra VIT from the Augmented Robe.