Duty Finder Kick Penalty

So I'm not sure how common this is but it bugs the heck out of me I'll be running a dungeon and someone wants to leave so they ask to get kicked to avoid penalty that seems backwards

If I kick you you should most definitely get a penalty especially if you just want to leave and normally I refuse in which case they just go afk for the dungeon is this a normal thing now because it seems like total bs

I have request being kicked from parties on a regular basis because of RL commitments that can interrupt my game play at any time, kids waking up crying. It usually takes me about 10 minutes to resettle.
Under the current system, I get to resume play immediately.
Under your system, I would get a further penalty.
I am not in favour or your idea.

Its a double edged sword. Say you queue for your Main Scenario as a fresh character. Lets say Brayflox normal. Your Average level 32 Paladin and you get a group of 3 pre-formed A WHM, NIN, and DRG for example all level 50. They inspect you see you in standard questing gear. Not in appropriate for your level, you have level you bought all the i29 pieces you saw on the market board for your level not high quality you don't have the gil for that. And your gear is a mix of some 28 pieces you got in Haukke and a few i30-32 pieces you got questing.

The notice of One person is New to the instance pops up. There is obviously only one new person here and it is you.

They Boot you. Not because you can't tank. Not because you are under geared. They boot you because they didn't want to deal with a new player. They want to get in there go through it quickly and maybe that white mage will get the battlemage robe they want for glamour.

Yeah but asking to be kicked just because you don't want to do a particular dungeon then refusing to play and go afk when no one will kick you is unacceptable imo

If it's a RL thing then to me that's too bad take the penalty I would I'd apologize and leave

Asking to be kicked is out of line and SE really should crack down on reports of this behavior too especially when they refuse to leave and just AFK in one spot/Try their best to cause wipes out of spite. If you want to go then leave and accept your 30 minutes like a man (or woman). If you have real life issues just leave and by the time you come back most of your penalty is gone anyway. Demanding to be kicked so you can have your cake and eat it is just childish and should be stopped,

Though on the flipside i can't stand when you get people who constantly try to force abandon a party for the same reasons. "Oh there was a wipe and i want to leave. Time to spam vote abandon constantly". This also works the other way around when a group is clearly getting nowhere for whatever reason and it's best to just put everyone out their misery because they want to abandon and somebody holds the group hostage.

There are a lot of aspects of system abusing when it comes to kick and again i think the people doing it should be treated more harshly so it stops.

If you were to be kicked from a group and receive a penalty, then you would be receiving a penalty for something you can't control. Leaving a group however you can control, so it is easier to justify that penalty.

The people asking to be kicked are just gaming the system to avoid a penalty. I don't see any reasonable change to the system that would avoid that.

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Originally Posted by SerDakota

Yeah but asking to be kicked just because you don't want to do a particular dungeon then refusing to play and go afk when no one will kick you is unacceptable imo
If it's a RL thing then to me that's too bad take the penalty I would I'd apologize and leave

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Trust me, I have left several instances, taking the penalty willingly. I ask first, just give myself the potential of not having the penalty imposed and to give fair warning why I am suddenly not going to be there.
Forcing people with real reasons to suffer a penalty because of jerk players is not a good solution. There have also been several times when they did not kick me, instead saying "Ok, come back when you can." Thus, allowing the AFK. The system will kick me and impose a penalty after enough AFK time any ways (I think it is 10 minutes).

Granting the players power to impose penalties on other players is just wide open for abuse.
If you get a trolling player (not truely AFK), you should be reporting that player.

I don't mind asking and I have vote kicked once or twice for people but if you ask and then refuse to play if the party says no is totally different

If I had to go I'd ask probably and if they said no I'd take the penalty I wouldn't go afk and stand there sure Noone wants a penalty and if the rest of the party doesn't care fine my problem is wish people that won't help in a dungeon if you don't kick them

Though I'm normally a tank but as far as I'm concerned if you queued for a dungeon you need to finish it especially as a tank or healer because they are dead in the water without you and it's not fair to the dps that waited 30 minutes for a dungeon

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Originally Posted by SerDakota

I don't mind asking and I have vote kicked once or twice for people but if you ask and then refuse to play if the party says no is totally different

If I had to go I'd ask probably and if they said no I'd take the penalty I wouldn't go afk and stand there sure Noone wants a penalty and if the rest of the party doesn't care fine my problem is wish people that won't help in a dungeon if you don't kick them

Though I'm normally a tank but as far as I'm concerned if you queued for a dungeon you need to finish it especially as a tank or healer because they are dead in the water without you and it's not fair to the dps that waited 30 minutes for a dungeon

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Welcome to the #RealWorld dude, not everything is fair lol. RL trumps videogame commitments, sorry to say, if I have to leave bc my kids are crying or I have to run out, like the examples above, I'd ask to be kicked too. I see no reason why you and the remainder of the group wouldn't kick me, but if you all decided not to, I'd personally just leave and suck it up, BUT if I wanted to be a crybaby and go AFK anyway, the other 3-7 ppl would just kick me for being AFK anyway. Problem Solved! #ENDTHREAD

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Originally Posted by SerDakota

I don't mind asking and I have vote kicked once or twice for people but if you ask and then refuse to play if the party says no is totally different

If I had to go I'd ask probably and if they said no I'd take the penalty I wouldn't go afk and stand there sure Noone wants a penalty and if the rest of the party doesn't care fine my problem is wish people that won't help in a dungeon if you don't kick them

Though I'm normally a tank but as far as I'm concerned if you queued for a dungeon you need to finish it especially as a tank or healer because they are dead in the water without you and it's not fair to the dps that waited 30 minutes for a dungeon

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It's also not fair to the DPS who gets kicked because he uses a mage LB on the adds in a speed run just because people wanted the melee LB on the boss (especially when the time evens out regardless of which way you do it). No penalty exists for a reason, there are some real jerks in the queues who wouldn't hesitate to abuse it on everybody. So my answer is eternally NO.

If they had a millions game masters to check complaints of people who got kicked for wrong reasons and are now on penalty, I would like it.
But currently, no, keep it that way.

However, I do think that real life commitments do not excuse you to leave without penalty.
If you are afraid you might have to jump up and leave any moment, don't queue.
Especially if you have a key role, worst case tank, waiting times on a new one do not get shorter if you leave for a "good" or "bad" reason.

If someone ask for kick i always ignore them w/e the reason. I am usually whm so if he was tank i can tank 1 group of mobs and if he is dps can run the dungeon with 1 less dps. If by the end of the dungeon he is back i would kick him there, if he isnt i try to jail them as long as i can. Sometimes they just keep talking but most of the time the jail time trap in a dungeon is more than the penalty for leaving so I'm satify either way.

Getting kicked from duty should not automatically come with a penalty. Some kicks are hardly warranted while still not considered "Vote Kick abuse" - people often get kicked for the silliest things.

However, perhaps something like the daily 3 strike rule on withdrawing from duty could apply to vote kicks. If you get yourself vote kicked more than 3 times in a day, every vote kick after that incurs a 30-60 minute signup penalty until the day's over.

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Originally Posted by Myrhn

If someone ask for kick i always ignore them w/e the reason. I am usually whm so if he was tank i can tank 1 group of mobs and if he is dps can run the dungeon with 1 less dps. If by the end of the dungeon he is back i would kick him there, if he isnt i try to jail them as long as i can. Sometimes they just keep talking but most of the time the jail time trap in a dungeon is more than the penalty for leaving so I'm satify either way.

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The "whatever the reason" part is something I strongly disagree with. Sometimes people have legitimate reasons for requesting a vote kick, and when someone has a legitimate reason, it'd be common courtesy to grant their request.

If someone's being a jerk, of course, I totally support your "jailing" strategy. We once had a tank who refused to do his job because the healer accidentally pulled an extra mob once.
He told us to votekick him because he'll get a 5 second queue as a tank anyway, or finish the dungeon on our own while he stands there to get a free clear. We cleared the dungeon up to the last boss, and then we just sat down and waited.
That tank actually decided to wait around until the last 10 minutes of duty. We kicked him then and finished the dungeon with just the three of us.

What's so mind boggling about it, is that he had no reason or incentive to act the way he did. He was being a jerk for being a jerk's sake. He wasted his own time and ours, instead of just doing his job and finishing the dungeon alongside us.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

The "whatever the reason" part is something I strongly disagree with. Sometimes people have legitimate reasons for requesting a vote kick, and when someone has a legitimate reason, it'd be common courtesy to grant their request.

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Can you elaborate on a legitimate reason?

If you have RL stuff to do, do it, eat the penalty, its only 30 min penalty, might be gone when you return or eat the 15 mins or what might be left of the penalty.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

The "whatever the reason" part is something I strongly disagree with. Sometimes people have legitimate reasons for requesting a vote kick, and when someone has a legitimate reason, it'd be common courtesy to grant their request.

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If you are going away for more than 20 mins there is no reason for you not taking the penalty. If is only 10 to 15 mins I'm willing to wait but i dont know if the other persons will.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Can you elaborate on a legitimate reason?

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I once accidentally signed up for duty without inviting my friend, who I intended to sign up with, to my group, and got an instant queue which I accepted before realizing my mistake.

My fault entirely of course, but I politely apologized to the group I was put in and asked them to kindly vote kick me, explaining the situation. They complied after the 5 minutes minimum passed and I thanked them for it.

Not kicking me would've meant I either had to leave, stick it out, or sabotage the group to force a kick. Leaving or sticking it out would've meant wasting my own time and my friend's - asking to be vote kicked hurt nobody, as people tend to get replaced rather quickly in level 50 dungeons thanks to roulettes.

Just tell them fulfilling such request is against the TOS ( aswell as asking to get kicked ofc ) and to eat their lockout. If people reeeally have to afk for such a period of time that a simple "brb" won't suffice then they can just enjoy a 30 minute afk. Anybody asking for kick isn't doing it so they can attend to irl issues they are doing it to get out of that dungeon group so they can instantly go to another.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

snip for char limit....

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You might be only thinking on whats fair to you.
What if you were the tank? You'd be in a new run 10 secs after you left, they'd most likely wait 20 mins.

Like I said, I'm for keeping it as it is, but for the sole reason that there are many aholes running around kicking for wrong reasons and not enough GMs to clean up after them..

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Just tell them fulfilling such request is against the TOS ( aswell as asking to get kicked ofc ) and to eat their lockout.

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Please, provide citation for such a statement, otherwise you are just spewing incorrect facts. I have done some searching and cannot find anything in the ToS that prevents a person from asking to be kicked from a duty.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

If people reeeally have to afk for such a period of time that a simple "brb" won't suffice then they can just enjoy a 30 minute afk.

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If they truly do go AFK for the extended period of time a system kick and penalty are done. It is actually to your own benefit to kick them out, as you will start the timer on a replacement that much faster.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

Anybody asking for kick isn't doing it so they can attend to irl issues they are doing it to get out of that dungeon group so they can instantly go to another.

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So, you are calling all players with RL issues, that do take more than a few minutes and less than 30 minutes to attend to liers? What a keen omni-sense you have.
Were you born with this ability? Or, have you cultivated over time?

There was a thread before from a guy who got contacted by a GM because he asked his party to kick him.

It is also face palmably obvious.
T_T ><

Why would they have a system in place to punish ppl for taking the piss with DF, if you could just simply request to leave the dungeon =_=

Also , if you look at the list of options when kicking someone, " the guy here cba and would rather queue something else"....is actually nowhere to be found.

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Originally Posted by ChameleonMS

So, you are calling all players with RL issues, that do take more than a few minutes and less than 30 minutes to attend to liers?

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It's called " brb few minutes" and it is acceptable. There is also a system in place to kick you if you remain afk too long, for a period of time unacceptable.

And if shit happens irl and u gotta afk 15 minutes? well you are only locked out for another 15 minutes. And the guys you left in DF might have queued 30 mins, and didn't get a replacement for you, and maybe due to irl, they now lose out on their dungeon?

Anyways, moving on, hf.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

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I have no problem taking the penalty when they say "no" to my request for a kick and I need to go AFK for RL. The abusers do, as they usually demand a kick.
Unfortunately, vote to kick is also frequently abused to kick players without proper reason. You are in favour "putting salt in the wound" when a player is victim of vote to kick abuse?
That's your opinion, Ok. If such a system was put in place, do not go complaining to the GMs, here on the board, etc.... when you are the victim of an abused vote to kick and suffer a penalty.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

Can you elaborate on a legitimate reason?

If you have RL stuff to do, do it, eat the penalty, its only 30 min penalty, might be gone when you return or eat the 15 mins or what might be left of the penalty.

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People who have kids, or... real jobs (on-call stuff major BS)

Recent kicks:
- DPS was being rude (after 24-man raid wipe)
- Tank (Pharos Sirius) after the Tank and DPS started arguing after a wipe. Decided the Tank was more at fault since they decided to immediately AFK.

Then there was:
- Tank, after their kid started puking their guts out (which was a vote abandon)

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

People who have kids, or... real jobs (on-call stuff major BS)

Recent kicks:
- DPS was being rude (after 24-man raid wipe)
- Tank (Pharos Sirius) after the Tank and DPS started arguing after a wipe. Decided the Tank was more at fault since they decided to immediately AFK.

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I don't really get which side you're argueing for.
What you are saying proves the point of the "pro-penalty" folks.
The two you kicked can just queue new.
The tank from PS might have been done with it sooner than you that day.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

I don't really get which side you're argueing for.
What you are saying proves the point of the "pro-penalty" folks.
The two you kicked can just queue new.
The tank from PS might have been done with it sooner than you that day.

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In the case of WoD, DPS still get long queues.

Just to go back to the point...

If someone can be replaced right away (eg DPS), then it is in the best interests to behave. Go right ahead and kick DPS that are mouthing off (harassment), you don't need to take it. Tanks and Healers on the other hand shouldn't get a free pass for this either, but kicking them only penalizes your party, especially if it's content that people don't like to play.

From experience it seems like kicks only happen because of a disagreement on how to play, often between the Tank and someone else, and without any tact. In the case of the Tank/DPS argument in PS (why is it this dungeon always has the worst people...) The tank said he was going to AFK because he wasn't going to play with that DPS. Then when he disappeared, he was immediately replaced in less than a minute by someone in the FC of the DPS that had the argument, which was ... odd timing. I haven't played DPS for a while (other than to get what I needed on Swiftcast from THM) so I don't know if poor behavior is coming from Healers as well. The only healers I've seen are in 8-man/24-man parties, and it's rare for them to get kicked.

As for which side I'm arguing for. I see both sides. I'd rather abuse be curbed, so I'm for-penalties for players that impulsively leave, and not for penalties if the entire party agrees to cancel. Unfortunately DPS are penalized more either way.

As for "in progress" abandon cycling, I've never seen it. I've only seen cases where one player disconnects, only to be replaced by another player who also disconnects. It's not like early 2013's version of the game where if someone disconnects or is kicked, good luck finishing the dungeon.

I don't really know if there should be a penalty, but the same player should not be allowed to re-queue and get the same party. I had a DF group where we were kicking the tank for trolling (didn't have an oath up, didn't flash or attack mobs, basically died, and spammed the party chat with Rick Roll lyrics). We kicked him 3 times (once for each party member and we each got the 4-hour not allowed to kick anyone else penalty that you get) and the tank re-queued for the dungeon and got us. Every. Single. Time. We had to wait for the vote abandon timer.

The reason why I think there shouldn't be a penalty is because in a 4-man run, you only need 2 people to agree in order for you to be kicked. Which means a pair of pre-mades could easily kick you for no reason (even though I think it's stated somewhere that SE doesn't want you to do that and you can get in trouble for abusing it) and I have had it happen to myself before (like, I got kicked out of an expert roulette for being too high of an ilevel for some dumb reason). Why should I be punished because I was kicked? It's not like that was in my control. I understand that there are people who abuse the vote kick because they don't want the penalty, but you have to remember that most people do not.

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Originally Posted by RhazeCain

If you were to be kicked from a group and receive a penalty, then you would be receiving a penalty for something you can't control. Leaving a group however you can control, so it is easier to justify that penalty.

The people asking to be kicked are just gaming the system to avoid a penalty. I don't see any reasonable change to the system that would avoid that.

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because it can be harder and longer to fill in that one role tank healer. And it uses up some ones once every 4 hour ability that can be used for a real reason as in kicking a troll.

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Originally Posted by SerDakota

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If people asked to get kicked and then go afk in a corner. This offense is reportable. I know I have reported them and GMs have always responded to be very* quickly about this sort of issue. Removed the player from the dungeon etc.

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Originally Posted by Squaak

1. Keep the vote-kick penalty-free.
2. Remove penalty for leaving a dungeon after the 15 minute mark. 15 minutes is the clear-time in an average duty-finder group.
3. In dungeons with multiple encounters, make the vote-kick function unavailable to groups that successfully make it to the final encounter.
4. If someone leaves or there was a kick involved, make the in-progress option unavailable for 30 minutes. To avvoid group and player meeting again. Either because the player forgot to unmark the in-progress option, or because he wanted to get back in there to become the obnoxious player.(Unknowingly, or on purpose)

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1. Agree
2. Great idea +1
3. Unsure about this, I would support leaving kick option available open because of in-case reasons; that RL call can and does happen any time. This idea would work great with option 2 was implemented. Thus, RL abandon would not impose the penalty, removing the need for a mercy kick.
4. Respectfully disagree, the group has control of when they initiate the search for a new member.
Additionally, the system should be improved to not allow a player to rejoin the same instance s/he has been kicked from.

So Yeah I was doing Garuda HM, you know getting those last points for my Mahatma. Well I join an in progress garuda hm, unknowingly, and I enter the only one alive and get killed. lol This should have been the first indicator. Then I see the entire party is maybe ILV70, and thats be... VERY GENEROUS. Well What ever, i was once there, i'll stick with it help these guys.

The tank... sucked. didn't know what he was doing, and couldn't keep hate for the life of him. With every attack I have Garuda on me.... Fine what ever the healers are doing an ok job at keeping me alive. the tornados come the tank and the rest of the party don't move out of it, they all get throw in different directions. here I am actively tanking Garuda because the tank is just that terrible, here I am only dpsing the boss, as drgs do. well healers die then we all die.

right before the start of the next attempt, I'm like meh w/e we died big deal.
The Tank goes on to blame me! That "I saw you provoke 4 times!" "you didn't kill the adds" "Vote Kick Azrael!"

I was like... are you seriously? A) DRGS CAN'T PROVOKE. Literally we are unable to use that ability. B) How can I kill the adds when Garuda is on me, am I to take garuda on a walk around town while I'm at it?

LOL He blamed me for the loss and got me kicked!!

only job lvdd to 50 was his tank.
WORST TANK EVER.

But thats beside the point. This Vote Kick function is absolutely broke.
Mob mentality is not the way to go and is starting to to ruin the game. you vote kick someone for unjust reasons they should do a weeks ban or jail or something to that effect.

No against this no more penalties

You withdraw 3 times you get a penalty every time you withdraw after that that's enough. Dps ques suck I get penalty all the time now no more penalties

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Originally Posted by TheLostFool

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I would edit and take the tanks name out, it is against the TOS to "name and shame" and it will get you banned for doing so.

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Originally Posted by Lilyanna

I would edit and take the tanks name out, it is against the TOS to "name and shame" and it will get you banned for doing so.

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Ah didn't know, fixed.

Let's look at this way.

If you leave without warning, it's bad for your team, considering you didn't warn them.
If you leave because you get kicked, it's probably because most of the members agree to kick you because of a reason.

I got a DRG once in Cutter's. DCed in the middle of last boss, and healer died and wiped. MNK decides to just kick him, I clicked "No." but the DRG was gone.

5 minutes later, waiting for a new DPS, the SAME DRG came back. He was spiteful but yeah, we managed to complete. Kicking someone means most of the team agree, (2/3) and we *might* finish the dungeon sooner. What if the DRG never connected back? Then we'll be waiting for a long time.............

Disagreement on how to play is the worst excuse to vote kick someone (unless the bad player is being a total troll). I rather have a vote abandon and re-queue with a new DF group.

TBH, Duty Finder is the problem...it randomly group the wrong ppl together. For example, grouping (BAD) speed run players doing relic weapons in pre-50 dungeons is often a recipe for disaster. I like to see DF with more options when you are using it—similar to how Party Finder works—so you are attract players with same goals and play style. It SHOULD ONLY GROUP PLAYERS WITH SIMILAR PREFERENCES.

Lol this whole thread is just dumb if someone doesn't want to be there kick them other wise deal with not doing it if the players I join in on are horrible and where wiping and I want to leave and get a better que I'ma ask to get kicked if u decide not to than deal with the afk your choice idk y people have to make a big deal out of nothing oh no some one made me mad on a video game let's cry about it on a forums and tell momma square or just leave and reque orrr just wait to find someone new they put the kick function for a reason I personally love it alot of bad groups out there

Ps: let the grammer insults come the funny thing about it idc! Have a great day guys

Why wouldn't they want to keep the new person and get the experience bonus? I got like 122k experience yesterday from having a newbie in copper bell roulette.

This is what I know so far:

1. From this thread I've learned that some ask to be kicked in order to avoid the penalty
2. I have also seen in Party Finder people looking to form a group to farm the 1st room in Dzemael promising 50k xp for 5 minutes, which implies no penalty. I assume they mean leaving and then re-Q_ing immediately since you need 15 minutes to vote Abandon
3. I once chose to leave and was able to re-Q immediately (on entering dungeon Healer decided to leave, Tank soon followed, that left 2 of us DPS and not wanting to just wait there - I left)

so how exactly does the penalty work? where/when is the point of no return?

This is a dumb request because kicking only requires half party vote. You can que df with two in a 4man and kick the randoms without a valid reason and those 2 would get a 30min penalty each. Seems like a thing that would get abused by trolls.