can MNK get a somewhat acceptable AOE skills?

i know everyone thinks MNk doesnt need more buffs but cmon
drg basically has howling fist on 3 secs cooldown, NIN can drop doton and continue dpsing
while MNK only decent Aoe is on 60 sec cd or require PB to be half decent

Rockbreaker.

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Originally Posted by ErzaScarlet77

i know everyone thinks MNk doesnt need more buffs but cmon
drg basically has howling fist on 3 secs cooldown, NIN can drop doton and continue dpsing
while MNK only decent Aoe is on 60 sec cd or require PB to be half decent

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Is this a troll thread? Howling Fist is a Monk ability on a 60 CD, Doton is a crappy Damage over time effect and a waste of Ninjitsu cast 90% of the time. Any solid monk will combo to keep up atk/atk speed buffs and drop some Rockbreaker combo action. We honestly do better than most.

An AOE attack in raptor form sounds like a nice idea. The main problem with MNK AOE is that they can only AOE 2/3 of the time unless they have pb.

Monks were designed to be single target kings not AoE kings, leave them for BLM. Also why you want more AoEs? To stay out tp in 10s and can't attack anymore?
Just do the usual combo on 1 mob and finish with rockbreaker and Howling fist and you will be fine.

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Originally Posted by Wobi

Is this a troll thread? Howling Fist is a Monk ability on a 60 CD, Doton is a crappy Damage over time effect and a waste of Ninjitsu cast 90% of the time. Any solid monk will combo to keep up atk/atk speed buffs and drop some Rockbreaker combo action. We honestly do better than most.

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hell no we do not "do better than most"
and doton isnt crappy wtf. you get 4 or 5 mobs there for full duration its basically AoE raiton. add kassutsu to that and thats even more while each hits is a crit
meanwhile Doom spike has 10 less potency compared to howling fist but its 2 sec cd vs 60 secs
rockbreaker requires at least 2 moves before hand so the amount you can do it is already heavily reduced not to mention its a cone aor which in my experience, seems to capture fewer mobs compared to line aoe like doom spike/howling fist

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Originally Posted by Shiki_Lockhart

Monks were designed to be single target kings not AoE kings, leave them for BLM. Also why you want more AoEs? To stay out tp in 10s and can't attack anymore?
Just do the usual combo on 1 mob and finish with rockbreaker and Howling fist and you will be fine.

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im aware. im not asking MNk to start doing flare or anything like that. its just that nowadays, MNK/DRG/NIN single target are pretty damn close where if you need to have a melee dps that can do aoe (like for FATE or soemthing idk), its better to bring drg/ninsince they can do single target pretty close to MNk but aoe much better than mnk

instead roll drg and doomspike to victory

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Originally Posted by Wobi

We honestly do better than most.

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Aside from the fabled MNK who sacrifices their PB to AoE, MNKs are actually the worst AoE class I've seen. DRGs are second-worst, but don't take as much to do at least decent AoE damage. That having been said, the typical MNK or DRG I see is terrible at either because they choose to single-target instead, even if given a large mob. When I see either genuinely trying to AoE, however, then the average such DRG easily does better.

Parse-wise for various mob sizes in dungeons, I've heard of BLMs hitting almost 2k. Average being closer to around 600-800 (BLMs who don't understand the rotation not included).
BRDs, SMNs, NINs hitting up to 800. Average closer to around 400-600. More often than not, I see NINs not try beyond just laying down the ground DoT, so unfortunately the average NIN is not utilizing their high potential for AoE damage.
DRG at 600. Average 300-400, because most don't really try.
I've yet to hear of a MNK hitting 500, and usually hear of them only doing around 300-400 to a mob, which is about the same as what they do against a single-target.

I've also yet to see a MNK PB-AoE, so I honestly don't know how they compare. The only reason why I know they exist at all is because I heard of a crazy pair of them in Haukke Manor-NM over half a year ago, melting the last pull, putting them on par with BLMs and SMNs of the time.


I don't know if MNK really needs more AoE skills. I'd rather see them encouraged to try using PB and AoE spam more, rather than saving PB for only bosses. If they still can't compare, then I'd hope they get a boost in the AoE department somehow.

MNK AOE is the worst, but it's honestly never an issue. 2x MNK + healer AOE is enough to kill whatever you're AOEing. It's not the fastest, but they can get it done. This also only really comes into play during 4m dungeons and trash in Crystal Tower, so its sort of a niche problem that MNK has. To be fair, though, there's not much to really add to MNK atm aside from improving their AOE so it would be nice if they did sort it out in the expansion.

I'm new to dps in MMOs and MNK is my first main dps job, currently at 46. Rockbreaker seems decent with the offensive buffs up, especially with Blood for Blood and the crit buff ability. Is Rockbreaker really that bad compared to other dps aoe abilities?

Yes, MNK needs better AoE

I know MNK's are supposed to be single target masters, but it's not like they beat NIN and DRG by much with that anyways, so why can't MNK at least have a functioning AoE rotation without using a single target attack in-between.

MNK: Arm of the destroyer (50 Potency) --> Single target attack(?) --> Rockbreaker (130 Potency) and Howling fist (170 Potency) somewhere between

DRG: Doom Spike (160 Potency) --> Doom Spike (160 Potency) --> Doom Spike (160 Potency) and Dragonfire Dive (250 Potency + 50% damage + Crit) somewhere between (including life/power surge)

It's pretty easy to see that DRG does an extreme amount of more AoE DPS than MNK... DRG in fact does pretty good, and so does NIN if you know how to count...

If MNK's are suposed to be single target masters who can't do anything against a group of enemies, or in fights that have any downtime at all, why aren't they further ahead than NIN and DRG on DPS then?

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Originally Posted by Tauu

I'm new to dps in MMOs and MNK is my first main dps job, currently at 46. Rockbreaker seems decent with the offensive buffs up, especially with Blood for Blood and the crit buff ability. Is Rockbreaker really that bad compared to other dps aoe abilities?

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rockbreaker itself isnt bad, but you need to do bootshine>true strike every time to do it or burn PB for it so it will take long time to actually clear mobs
NIN can do doton and continue their single target rotation and DRG can repeatedly spam doom spike that has only 10 less potency than howling fist, our 60s cd AoE, they also have ring of thorns which is really underrated imo, oh and they ahve dragonfire dive, 250 potency aoe that is seriously good (although long cd)

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Originally Posted by Craiger

Dragonfire Dive (250 Potency + 50% damage + Crit) somewhere between (including life/power surge)

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Minor nitpick, Dragonfire Dive does actually not work with either power surge or life surge. Power surge only buffs jump and spineshatter dive (explicitly says it on the tooltip) and life surge only makes it crit on one target rather than the whole AOE (so it works different than kassatsu for some reason).

Never technically got to main MNK, but I figured out the trick with PB and AoE pretty easily, and without a guide.

It's not so different from BLM AoE, in that you need to build up a little before cutting loose. Get to GL2 or 3 first, then pop everything, including PB, and drop Rockbreaker like there's no tomorrow.

Don't have any numbers on file, since that was months ago at lower-than-current ilevel, but it was a match for a BLM. Except for that three-minute CD.

So no one gives a thought to the next pull? Sure you can blow every CD and pop off great numbers for almost any DPS, but then you have no buffs or TP/MP for the next pull 10 seconds later, great planning.

They could give a small buff to Rockbreaker (potency and damage radius could use a boost) and I'd be fine with it, but honestly the biggest help would be increasing the length of Greased Lightning buff. It's too easy to lose stacks if you have a bad tank constantly moving the mobs around, spinning, non-stop repositioning and next thing you know you've lost stacks and then you are sad.

Monk AE ain't that bad if you get your rotation going properly. Ain't as good as holy spam or black mage or anywhere close to that, but it gets the job done on trash pulls. Make sure you have invigorate cross skill to aid your TP that's going to suffer from the AEs.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Monk AE ain't that bad if you get your rotation going properly. Ain't as good as holy spam or black mage or anywhere close to that, but it gets the job done on trash pulls. Make sure you have invigorate cross skill to aid your TP that's going to suffer from the AEs.

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It's not inadequate for most AOE tasks in the game, but if you compare against other classes (Probably the point the thread starter is trying to make), MNK AOE is pretty bad. (Largely because of the single-target GCDs mixed in between Rockbreakers.)

What Monk need first before a better AoE skill is a ranged skill.
DRG throw spears, NIN throw knives and MNK throw nothing. Why?
Please SE, give MNK the Chakrams back.

http://oi58.tinypic.com/30a9n3n.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sunako

Throwing sprears and knives make sense but throwing claws make no sense anymore.

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Where did he mention Claws? That is clearly a Chakram.

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Originally Posted by Craiger

If MNK's are suposed to be single target masters who can't do anything against a group of enemies, or in fights that have any downtime at all, why aren't they further ahead than NIN and DRG on DPS then?

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Because the MNK has multiple near-mandatory raid utilities and will in fact do roughly 10-15% more DPS than the NIN and DRG given equal gear and skill.

So what you guys now want aoe better then nin or drg?
Like it's not enough that in most cases you still do more ST damage.... how high of a pedestal do you want

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Originally Posted by Wobi

So no one gives a thought to the next pull? Sure you can blow every CD and pop off great numbers for almost any DPS, but then you have no buffs or TP/MP for the next pull 10 seconds later, great planning.

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Well ideally, there's only one major pull and no mob to worry about after that until after a boss fight. I can think of several stretches where they'd take ~7-10 minutes for a single-pulling party, but only ~2 for a good AoE party that can do a full pull. I don't mind waiting a few seconds if people need TP/MP after a pull like that; the run is faster with or without needing to wait for resources to come back.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

It's not so different from BLM AoE, in that you need to build up a little before cutting loose. Get to GL2 or 3 first, then pop everything, including PB, and drop Rockbreaker like there's no tomorrow.

Don't have any numbers on file, since that was months ago at lower-than-current ilevel, but it was a match for a BLM. Except for that three-minute CD.

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That sounds similar to what I heard about the crazy pair of AoE MNKs I was told about. Main difference is I think they didn't build up GL stacks first. For the dungeon they were in though, the mob still died with PB going--so roughly ~10 sec.
After talking with someone else more about this topic, I'm sure PB-AoE'ing MNKs would do just fine in older dungeons, but how viable would they be with the newest dungeons?

How long does it take to build up to GL2 or 3? And then does the damage increase and TP efficiency make up for that time spent?
For several pulls I can think of with the current set of Expert dungeons, mobs can take 20 seconds or a bit more for (as far as I know) good BLM-BLM or BRD-BLM pairs I've been with, even with say a WAR tank and healer helping DPS. Given mobs that take that length of time, I'm guessing a MNK couldn't stand on par with a mage anymore, but how would they compare with a DRG then?

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Originally Posted by Craiger

MNK: Arm of the destroyer (50 Potency) --> Single target attack(?) --> Rockbreaker (130 Potency) and Howling fist (170 Potency) somewhere between

DRG: Doom Spike (160 Potency) --> Doom Spike (160 Potency) --> Doom Spike (160 Potency)

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I would consider sustainable buffs, too. I don't know how much MNK gets, but I know a DRG should be able to maintain at least the 15% damage buff from Heavy Thrust, so Doom Spikes would be more like 184 than 160.

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Originally Posted by synesthetic

That sounds similar to what I heard about the crazy pair of AoE MNKs I was told about. Main difference is I think they didn't build up GL stacks first. For the dungeon they were in though, the mob still died with PB going--so roughly ~10 sec.

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Building up GL is totally optional, but it means you get two to three extra Rockbreakers at "full" potency. The DPS spike is comparable to a BLM's Double/Triple Flare, but the overall encounter parse will still never be as good.

Also, it's expensive and uses all your CDs, so best saved for when the tank can pull EVERYTHING leading up to the boss.

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Originally Posted by Wobi

Is this a troll thread? Howling Fist is a Monk ability on a 60 CD, Doton is a crappy Damage over time effect and a waste of Ninjitsu cast 90% of the time. Any solid monk will combo to keep up atk/atk speed buffs and drop some Rockbreaker combo action. We honestly do better than most.

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Speaking as a master ninja, you know nothing. Doton is amazing. If you are using Katon for anything but AoE while Doton is up, stop now.

Doton > you.

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Originally Posted by Samburi

What Monk need first before a better AoE skill is a ranged skill.
DRG throw spears, NIN throw knives and MNK throw nothing. Why?
Please SE, give MNK the Chakrams back.

http://oi58.tinypic.com/30a9n3n.jpg

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the reason most MNKs (or well, i) dont talk about it i think is because im 99m999999% sure MNk are gettign some kind of chi blast thing that will add GL stack
or at least i hope we do.
i feel liek chi blast is already more requested than increased GL duartion

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Don't have any numbers on file, since that was months ago at lower-than-current ilevel, but it was a match for a BLM. Except for that three-minute CD.

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A good AOE from Bard and Nin require using 2 min cooldowns so they are pretty much in the same boat. Nin can omit it, but Bard is very dependent on it's cooldowns for high AOE numbers.

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Originally Posted by Wobi

So no one gives a thought to the next pull? Sure you can blow every CD and pop off great numbers for almost any DPS, but then you have no buffs or TP/MP for the next pull 10 seconds later, great planning.

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You don't usually need to care about next pull as there are usually only one significant big pull between bosses. And bard for example blows all their damage-up cooldowns for their nice numbers, so they are in even worse situation.

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Originally Posted by synesthetic

I would consider sustainable buffs, too. I don't know how much MNK gets, but I know a DRG should be able to maintain at least the 15% damage buff from Heavy Thrust, so Doom Spikes would be more like 184 than 160.

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27% from GL3 + 10% from twin snakes

If you know how to play monk they are nowhere near bottom aoe dps. I find ninja to be the lowest since poison became physical only. Obviously I cant beat a good blackmage (or holy spamning whitemage) and 3-4 enemies I cant beat a summoner (the bane 3 enemy limit needs to be removed or increased).
3 enemies I cycle demolish on my targets. Less than 3 I single target. On larger pulls I still apply demo first to test the other dps. If it looks like an enemy will die before demo runs out then I'll avoid using PB and let the better equipped dps do the majority of the aoe while I only rockbreaker (usually only happens with blm or smn. Never with a physical dps). If enemies are dropping hp slowly, i'll demo another enemy, target a 3rd for autoattacks (dot on 2 plus aa on another) then remove lock-on and position in the back half of my targeted enemies hit box to maximize my range, then it's PB b4b IR rockbreaker spam. After the 5 rockbreakers it's back to judging enemy hp and deciding to use arm of the destroyer or not. The tp cost is so huge that I prefer 6+ enemies (or if elemental sprite type enemy is tearing through a tank during a large dungeon pull then I may use it help silence a few attacks so heals can catch up)I'm sure it's not the best aoe rotation but it works well. Monks are still primarily single target so if another job can easily aoe let them and just assist with rb. Don't be afraid to burn tp. It will build up during the next pull. What good is finishing a large pull with 500+ tp with invigorate unused. Usually if you run out it's because the other dps didn't aoe (adjust accordingly)

Nin AoE isn't bad or anywhere near, when proper rotation is applied. Doton + Death Blossom + Huton = yeah baby.

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Originally Posted by Issachar

Nin AoE isn't bad or anywhere near, when proper rotation is applied. Doton + Death Blossom + Huton = yeah baby.

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Don't forget Katon->Kassatsu->Doton in there!

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Originally Posted by Wobi

Is this a troll thread? Howling Fist is a Monk ability on a 60 CD, Doton is a crappy Damage over time effect and a waste of Ninjitsu cast 90% of the time. Any solid monk will combo to keep up atk/atk speed buffs and drop some Rockbreaker combo action. We honestly do better than most.

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Nah, tbh the lack of 2nd hit aoe move and arm of the destroyer's terrible potency does put mnk in last for aoe. Can't perfect balance every pull.

DRG averages 100 or 160 aoe per gcd depending on mob grouping.
NIN is 100 per gcd with occasional extra. You're right that doton is bad in most cases; katon wins or ties unless mobs last 21 seconds on average. (and NIN contributes to another tp-user's aoe longevity)
BRD is 110 assuming mobs are close enough for quick nock. (which does win vs using rain of death etc for procs unless mobs are too spread out)

MNK is 50+130 every 3 gcds, so average 60 per. Here's to hoping lvl 51-60 includes a raptor-form aoe move. For every Howling Fist you get the NIN can throw out 3 katons, so that's also no contest, and greased lightning does not make up the difference between 60 potency/gcd vs 100+, even if you were to add in true strike/twin snakes potency and divide it up amongst targets, which would be overestimating its usefulness since aoe style killing doesn't really benefit that much from putting extra damage on only one of the targets.

I think Monks are fine the way they are. They already do the most single target damage in the game. If they gave Monk any good AOE then he would be unbalanced compared to the other jobs. BLM does the most AOE damage but are immobile, Bards can attack while moving however they have low dps. Monks need a weakness to keep them balanced, weak AOE damage is one of them.

MNK needs a ranged attack a LOT more than greater AoE capability right now, seeing how it is the ONLY job in FFXIV without a ranged "pull" skill.

Monk needs another +10-12% damage boost. And the return of Asuran fist. I will also settle with Hundred fists.

I'd say don't worry about AoE. Worst Case Scenario: you have 2 Monks in your Dungeon run.

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Originally Posted by Yuki_Tokita

I think Monks are fine the way they are. They already do the most single target damage in the game. If they gave Monk any good AOE then he would be unbalanced compared to the other jobs. BLM does the most AOE damage but are immobile, Bards can attack while moving however they have low dps. Monks need a weakness to keep them balanced, weak AOE damage is one of them.

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Talk about unbalanced, I would say DRG, (Many drgs are going to curse me for this)
But look at DRG now, They don't have to work as hard as monks to do dps (by that i meant heavy thrust), they have higher hp, higher def, same mdef, increased dmg taken when bfb is up is reduced while having more outgoing dmg, they have ranged skill, decent aoe, recover more TP than monks

The only thing monks have now over Drg are DK, and healing buff. Tho they are technically still the top single target dps, most fights in this game still favors DRG and NIN because of Gs stacks

How about they just decrease the TP needed for Rock Breaker?

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Originally Posted by Arkista

How about they just decrease the TP needed for Rock Breaker?

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Or increase Fists of Fire from 5% to 10%.

While I personally don't find MNK or DRG hard to play, I do feel that MNK is noticeably more work to output similar DPS. There's lots of movement for positionals in comparison, lots more button mashing because of faster GCDs (Can be viewed as a pro or a con, really. It's certainly more engaging to play, but also quicker to fatigue), and GL3 stacks to worry about.

Tatsumaki Sempu Kyaku for raptor form!

Dint feel like making new topic, but would a burst skill for mnk be to OP

If anyone played ragnarok online, monks there are mainly fast attack combo system like here too but by sacrificing all their MP they can do a massive burst damage


Maybe in here we could sacirfice all gl3 stack (or gl4 if my wish comes true for hw) and use them for one big burst

To balance ot maybe make is so after youuse that attack you cant gain gl stack for 30 sec or somethong