Primals, and their nature?

Hey all,

I have a few (and probably easy to answer...) questions regarding Primals and the summoning of such. I know that there's a lot of established lore, and some interestingly confined contexts in which a Primal is supposed to be summoned.

In most of the cases that we've gotten to see, thus far, Primals are brought about by the belief in said entities. So, for instance, Ifrit was a legend, before his initial summoning. Through a mass gathering, ritual sacrifices and Temperings, as well as a massive number of aetheryte crystals, the Primal is brought forth into the realm of the tangible.

All of these pretexts were thrown out the window, when Moggle Mogg came about, and even more-so, when Shiva was summoned, in one of the more recent patches.

The developers have already stated that the upcoming Primals in 3.0 will leave us questioning the very nature of Primals, and how they're summoned, but I'd actually like to know more about the Primals we already have.

What I mean, in this regard, is where does the Legend start?

Due to what we've come to understand about Primals, the belief in said entity has to already exist... this brings up some interesting thoughts, along these lines.

In most cases, legend is born out of fact, and in the case of the Primals, that's taken one step further, and Fact is born out of Legend. However, most social and mythological phenomena are still rooted in history and factual persons, places, or events.

What does that mean for the Beast Tribes?

To have a rooted interest in the summoning of these entities, there'd need to have been some sort of historical basis upon which they could rest their 'image' of the Primals, and the hope that they could summon one.

The best case I've seen, thus far (oddly enough), of a Primal's 'history' being explained in any sort of detail, is Shiva. Her history, and the fact that she was once a mortal, further roots my thoughts on the matter...

In this case, we see a very well detailed encounter, and timeline of events leading to the Shiva that we now see in the Primal Encounter.

I realize that I'm probably rambling, and digging into territory that's already been discussed, but it's something that I've found -very- little lore on (at least in such a specific nature).

As such, I'd love to see what you other Lore-Bugs out there think...

I think its a complex questions and we are quite far from the answer. In game the core method of identifying some thing as a primal seems to be it's aetheric signature. Shiva, while very different to what we knew about primals, still had the aetheric properties of a primal.

The core things needed seem to be worship or prayer and a lot of concentrated aether, usually in the form of crystals. Odin seems an odd case out and I'd be curious to find out exactly why he is different in this regard.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

The core things needed seem to be worship or prayer and a lot of concentrated aether, usually in the form of crystals. Odin seems an odd case out and I'd be curious to find out exactly why he is different in this regard.

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The Odin trial quest explains that. Odin is not the person, it's the sword. The person wielding it is the one who finds and picks it up after defeatnig the previous Wielder and then besomes tempered by the sword. Which explains why the "Odin" assumes the form of the person who defeats them. As it's the wielder that gets defeated, not the sword, means Odin is never banished from the realm.

The sword was sealed within Urths Gift. Calamity freed it to be found and thus Odin rides again.

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Originally Posted by Ioradin

What I mean, in this regard, is where does the Legend start?

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This is one of the things we still debate. Over time, we've narrowed down our possibilities quite a bit (I remember one of my first theories was that primals reached across from another realm and latched on to a society, manipulating them so they'd be needed in order to get them to summon them here, where they can eat all the aether, lol.) Since then, we've found some patterns, but not all of our answers.

I actually think I need to go back to the very beginning and start over, because a lot of my assumptions hinge on the idea that primals cannot exist if the aether is in balance. I've said that so many times that I don't even remember the quote that led me there.Indeed, I started to become paranoid that I made the whole thing up, accidentally moving fanon to assumed canon. Many mentions simply say that the world needs to be in chaos, which need not mean anything aetherial is wrong, just that people are desperate. Doing some fact-checking, I came across this from the French client:

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Originally Posted by Minfilia

Mais lorsque l'ordre qui régit notre univers est troublé, alors les hommes-bêtes sont capables d'invoquer leurs dieux et de les faire venir dans notre monde.
But when the order that governs our universe is disturbed, then the beastmen are able to invoke their gods and bring them into this world.

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So - perhaps I'm not crazy, perhaps I'll find that quote, but I really need to start over with a fresh POV. As I go, maybe I can make a full summary of the collected information from <flips page> two hundred instances? It uh... it might be a bit.

That said, the part you're asking about - the what came first part - is still very, very open to debate.

What we Could / Should do, is either Start a Thread / wiki compiling known information about either Each Primal, or all the Primals, anything that we could possible associate as being a Primal, throw in there, and see if i matches up to the others. Maybe people BELIEVE some creatures are primals, when in truth, they are not. We are getting our knowledge from Eorzeans . . . who says their knowledge is infallible?

I would tentatively recommend the following template to get started. (People who wanna upload / share their Lore would be appreciate)

Primal :
First Encountered:
Trial:
process of summoning:

Additional Lore / known facts:

I posted one such example below, and realized, I'm probably not a good person to start this style of information collecting & compiling, since I'm not super active in the Lore Forums.

Primal : Ifrit
First Encountered: ??
Trial: Bowl of Embers.
process of summoning: The Amal'jaa gather fire crystals, and through prayer and worship, and offering ribues of fire crysals, Ifrit comes into being to fight for the Amal'jaa and defeat the Warrior of Light.

Additional Lore / known facts: The Amal'jaa have worshipped Ifrit for all of the known recorded history. Ifrit is a fire-aspected being, and all of his atacks are fire-based.


Primal : Shiva
First Encountered: x Astral Era
Trial: Akh Afah Amphitheatre
process of summoning: The Lady of Ice, an elezen, who little is known about, through her own sheer force of Will and Ice Crystals (no others involved with summoning) Called upon Saint Shiva. Shiva usurped the body of the Elezen, insead of being formed purely on Aether.

Additional Lore / known facts: Shiva is known as a Heretic for having laid down with Dragons. In X Era it was recorded that she was an Elezen. It is possible that the lady of ice is an actual descendant of Shiva, which perhaps is why she could embody the Primal. Perhaps it is merely because she had a strong enough will to do it herself is the reason why she could summn Shiva into herself. It is also speculated that Shiva is the mother to the coming PC Race Au Ra, who appear to be half dragons. If that was the case though, wouldn't we expect Yugiri to play a more major role regarding this Primal?

Primal : Midgardsormr
First Encountered: :o
Trial: N/A / Keeper of the Lake (but it's not a trial, nor is he truly defeated . . . )
process of summoning: Louisoiz Leveilleur had citizens accross Eorzea praying for a solution to the war with Garlemald, and he channelled their prayers into summoning the most powerful Primal of all time, Midgardsormr, after the battle Midgardsormr collapsed and fell down in the lands of Mor Dhona, wrapped around the Garlean vessel ______.

Additional Lore / known facts: It recently became known that Midgardsormr was never defeated, the Dragon laid dormant and is confronted during the instance Keeper of the Lake where he reveils information about why he has awoke, and a little about what that means for Eorzeans. he also has some sort of contract with Hydaelen, which meant that he could not kill the Warrior of Light. He is also so powerful he can just whimsically create a minion to stalk you and gather information for himself.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

The Odin trial quest explains that. Odin is not the person, it's the sword. The person wielding it is the one who finds and picks it up after defeatnig the previous Wielder and then besomes tempered by the sword. Which explains why the "Odin" assumes the form of the person who defeats them. As it's the wielder that gets defeated, not the sword, means Odin is never banished from the realm.

The sword was sealed within Urths Gift. Calamity freed it to be found and thus Odin rides again.

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I meant specifically that Odin has no worshippers. Alisaie says in CoB that Primals require a ready supply of Aether and worshippers to remain manifested. Cutting off either will greatly weaken or dissipate the Primal. Odin may draw Aether from his surroundings but he appears to have no worshipers apart from his host. In this I think he is unique. Even Shiva had devotees.

I don't think Midgarsormr is a primal. I've never heard him refered to as one in game and he hasn't displayed any particular traits you associate with primals. More over he left a body while primals for the most part dissipate upon death. I think he is just a really ancient dragon, perhaps from the very dawn of the world as the myth says.

Should I be avoiding spoilers in this thread? I've been trying to step around them.

I agree that chaos is the key to the door for not only primals but voidsent as well, anything "unnatural" to our plane for that matter. However, this chaos is not in the events that take place here, but the mayhem on the aetherial sea due to the warring between light and darkness. Their struggle against one another causes fluctuations in the amount of aether present; this is the "imbalance". For the time being, we're experiencing an over-abundance of aether present. There is simply too much life-juice floating around, loosening the once firm barriers that keep separate our realms. Of course, the scale could tip someday and deplete our realm of aether, which would likely drain the life from everything and everyone on the planet, but we'll cross that bridge if/when we come to it.

Where did it all begin? From what we can see at the moment, it would appear as though Hydaelyn is to blame. Soon after she came into being, so too did Zodiark. However, Hydaelyn spawned more than just a contrast to her light, Althyk (earth) and Nymeia (water) were born as well.

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Originally Posted by Erik

And then there was water, and through it the Silvertear Falls came to be at the center of all that was. Here was the source not only of water, but the fount of all magic as well. Now, when water came into being, so too did the great dragon Midgardsormr.

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All of these creations, be it solely of Hydaelyn or a product of her and the shadow her light casts, served her regardless. These beings of the light displaced the darkness - the planet floating within like a boat in water - causing the initial imbalance between the two and allowing aether (magic) to come upon the earth (Althyk).

Zodiark needed a method to combat the thieving light, and so the original Ascians were born.
https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.60...057675&pid=1.7

These "Paragons" were to visit the world of light in Zodiark's stead and begin scheming to restore their creator's territory in the aetherial sea (space).
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So, where did primals come from? They are the result of a mass amount of gathered aether given purpose by an individual(s) who, essentially, know in which direction to send their will. With the balance currently on the aether-heavy side, this becomes rather easy and, as it furthers their goal of depleting light from Hydaelyn, the Ascians are more than happy to share with those that are unaware.

As far as we know, that's all they are.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

I meant specifically that Odin has no worshippers.

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Odin is not a Primal.

Zantesuken - the Sword - is the Primal.
have you fought Odin? yes? So you've seen him, wielding Zantetsuken? Certainly, you felt it CUT you. I'm sure you believe it exists.

but I Digress. What we don't know, is when Zantetsuken was originally summoned. You see, because, like Midgardsormr if MY Theories are correct, who just took a nap, Zantetsuken takes control over whoever picks up Zantetsuken, and turns them into Odin. All the while, sucking Aether out of the Black Shroud itself to sustain its presence in our realm.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

EDIT INCOMING

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but I wantz haz nowz!

You know what I don't get about Odin? If the person who defeated him claims his sword and thus gets tempered... Well firstly, we cannot be tempered due to the Echo, so how's that even happening? Secondly... If the person who defeats him somehow gets tempered and "becomes" Odin... How can that same person fight Odin during the FATE when they should be Odin?

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

Primal : Midgardsormr
First Encountered: :o
Trial: N/A / Keeper of the Lake (but it's not a trial, nor is he truly defeated . . . )
process of summoning: Louisoiz Leveilleur had citizens accross Eorzea praying for a solution to the war with Garlemald, and he channelled their prayers into summoning the most powerful Primal of all time, Midgardsormr, after the battle Midgardsormr collapsed and fell down in the lands of Mor Dhona, wrapped around the Garlean vessel ______.

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Midgardsormr isn't a Primal, and that never happened. You seem to be mixing up 1.0s intro with 2.0s; Lou wasn't around during the Battle of Silvertear Skies, nobody prayed for a solution to Garlemalds advance (except the Beast Tribes). 2.0s intro had Lou and the Circle of Knowing praying to the Twelve for a solution to Dalamud crashing into them. Midgardsormr just saw Garlemald flying over his lake and decided to kick their butt. I strongly suspect this was also due to the Garleans attempting to recreate Crystal Tower around the same time with Bozja Citadel; They attempt to recreate it to call down Dalamud then head to the original Towers resting place? Yeah...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

You know what I don't get about Odin? If the person who defeated him claims his sword and thus gets tempered... Well firstly, we cannot be tempered due to the Echo, so how's that even happening? Secondly... If the person who defeats him somehow gets tempered and "becomes" Odin... How can that same person fight Odin during the FATE when they should be Odin?

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Have you not completed the Trial for Odin yet? It answers those questions.

Altough, interesting, as now we know WHY Odin has somebodies name every day when he spawns. And technicall yes, that's a continuity error, but I still think it's really interesting. And you know what, I don't know a single person who had ever suggested the reason players names were there was because they actually WERE Odin because they were possessed by Zantetsuken.

Anyway, in the Trial,

Zantetsuken gets tossed away somewhere upon Odin's defeat. Another member of the team from Gridania found it and picked up the blade, and kills the rest of his search party. Odin trolls the black Shroud once again.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

Have you not completed the Trial for Odin yet? It answers those questions.

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Yes, and no it doesn't.

It explained that Zantesuken tempered people upon Odins defeat. For the Trial, it ended up tempering an NPC to keep the FATE around. For the FATE, we get tempered. Whoever gets the kill shot is tempered, that's why Odin takes their name and form the next time he spawns. That is impossible; The Echo is meant to protect us from tempering. We can also fight ourselves, I get the kill shot, claim Zantesuken and become Odin (he looks just like me, has my name as a title), then fight the Odin which is meant to be me. Those are both two massive inconsistence which aren't explained, worse they're created by the Trial story.

They could have vastly improved the Odin Trial story if they'd simply found the NPC who stole Zantesuken dead as well, thrown in a shot of the new Odin looking just like our character, concluding that the NPC sacrificed himself to Zantesuken to resummon the knight/Odin. Then just explain that the knight/Odin takes on the form of whomever bested him either as a sign of respect or to increase his power, with the knight part of Odin being somewhat similar to Egis; You defeat Odin, your Aether is imprinted, Zantesuken then summons You-Egi as its new Odin.

Is it tempering though, or more akin to possession? Lady Iceheart is an echo user as well but is still able to become host to Shiva.

Odin is the primal, Zantetsuken is it's prison. The hapless who take hold the sword are releasing Odin into them. It requires no worshipers because it's already summoned and wont until the sword itself is destroyed and the primal returned to aether.

My point still would stand. Its not simply belief that gives a primal power. It is worship or at the very least devotion. Lots of people believe in Ifrit, Garuda and Titan but they don't draw power from those beliefs. Remember how Garuda in the Story Mode regenerated almost instantly after we had defeated her because of the Ixal's prayers?

Odin has no worshipers regardless of his true form and he only ever seems to temper one individual. This means Odin seems to operate with only one half of the usual requirements every other Primal we have seen needed. Even Bahamut had all those dragons in tubes.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Midgardsormr isn't a Primal, and that never happened. You seem to be mixing up 1.0s intro with 2.0s; Yeah...

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I may be mistaken, and I will have to figure out where I got that impression from. I have a distinct impression regarding either Keeper of the Lake, or possible lore revealed fom coils, that the result of Louisoix's summoning was that he had summoned Midgardsormr. Maybe I mis-interepreted the events. I also haven't gotten around to doing FCoB since my static broke before 2.4.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Is it tempering though, or more akin to possession? Lady Iceheart is an echo user as well but is still able to become host to Shiva.

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It would have to be a forceful possession; We're not willingly summoning a Primal like Iceheart. If it's forceful then it seems awfully similar to tempering. Then there is the fact that Iceheart underwent a transformation while playing host for Shiva, the reverse is true for Odin; A Lalafell bests him, he transforms into a Lalafell. A Miqo'te bests him, he becomes a cat girl (Odin and Noah would get on well).

...

OK, that was a joke, but... Noah seems to have copied Odin... That's... Interesting...

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Originally Posted by Belhi

Odin has no worshipers regardless of his true form and he only ever seems to temper one individual. This means Odin seems to operate with only one half of the usual requirements every other Primal we have seen needed. Even Bahamut had all those dragons in tubes.

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I believe that once a primal is summoned there is no further need to provide it with worship/prayer/hope/wishes and that the emprisoned Mericydians were there to provide addtional power to Bahamut to be converted for the Crystal Tower. Either that or, when a primal is damaged, it is unable to regenerate, thus prayer and additional aether can be used to mend the primal.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Then there is the fact that Iceheart underwent a transformation while playing host for Shiva, the reverse is true for Odin

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Ah, but did Shiva not resemble an Elezen woman?

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Ah, but did Shiva not resemble an Elezen woman?

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True, but we could go round with that forever, considering her potential origin would mark her as an Elezen anyway.

Still, for an Elezen to Elezen transformation, Shiva was more than just a change of clothes for Iceheart, the two look distinct from each other. Same isn't true for Odin, he literally just ends up as your character model in his armor. Even if it was the case that Odin found a loophole to effectively temper us, it still wouldn't explain how we can then be in two places at the same time when we fight him when he is us.

Really wish they went with the "You defeated Odin. Zantetsuken summons You-Egi!" route with Odin. It just covers all the plot holes. Would have made for a pretty epic closing cutscene too, though I guess the trial only came about due to popular demand, so there's only so much they could have done with it.

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Originally Posted by Mishini_Dracoto

I may be mistaken, and I will have to figure out where I got that impression from. I have a distinct impression regarding either Keeper of the Lake, or possible lore revealed fom coils, that the result of Louisoix's summoning was that he had summoned Midgardsormr. Maybe I mis-interepreted the events. I also haven't gotten around to doing FCoB since my static broke before 2.4.

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The dates simply don't align; The Battle of Silvertear Skies, where Midgardsormr fell, happened before Lou came to Eorzea. Midgardsormr also existed long before Lou would even have been born, if he is the father to Nidhogg then Midgardsormr pre-dates Ishgard at the very least. If myth is to be believed he pre-dates man completely, though I refuse to believe that just because I cannot see Allag rising to power with Middy right there... They built a voidgate-opening tower right next to his lake... Either he didn't exist at the time or we're missing a lot of context...

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Originally Posted by Nalien

If myth is to be believed he pre-dates man completely, though I refuse to believe that just because I cannot see Allag rising to power with Middy right there... They built a voidgate-opening tower right next to his lake... Either he didn't exist at the time or we're missing a lot of context...

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I sampled this quote in my first post, which probably went unread by most, but I'll post the full one here.

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Originally Posted by Erik

There was the birth of Althyk, god of time among the Twelve, and in turn, His younger sister Nymeia, goddess of fate. And then there was water, and through it the Silvertear Falls came to be at the center of all that was. Here was the source not only of water, but the fount of all magic as well. Now, when water came into being, so too did the great dragon Midgardsormr. Brother Time and Sister Fate, fearing the Falls might fall into the hands of evil, ordered Midgardsormr their protector and warden. Much later, with the arrival of man, would Midgardsormr be worshipped as the guardian deity of Silvertear Falls.

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Midgarsormr's job was to guard the lake and the fount of aether within. Either his duty prevented him from intervening or he straight up didn't care about his great great great great great great grandchildren, or he was sleeping. Dragons like sleep.

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

Midgarsormr's job was to guard the lake and the fount of aether within. Either his duty prevented him from intervening or he straight up didn't care about his great great great great great great grandchildren, or he was sleeping. Dragons like sleep.

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His duty didn't prevent him dealing with the Agrius. He literally crashed that ship into the very thing he was meant to be protecting, too... If he was just napping then he has lost every right to lecture me on anything.

I much prefer the idea that he came after Allag, to protect Crystal Towers resting place and prevent it ever being misused again. Garlemald create Bozja Citadel, which was effectively a copy of Crystal Tower, and then attempt to set up shop in Mor Dhona so he deals with them. His seven sons similarly protect Allag relics, resulting in the Dragonsong War with Nidhogg and Ishgard, Midgardsormr now joining the rising chorus as Ishgard is about to make a second mistake.

(I'm on a tablet so I can't quote everyones post, at least not yet anyway.)

In regards to the OP, you indicated that most primals were "entities" that were worshipped but didn't actually exist until their summonings gave them physical form. But that with the additions of Mog and Shiva that that way of thinking was called into question; whether by you I'm not sure. However, the inclusion of Mog and Shiva actually supports that line of thinking. The only difference is, the worshipping of Mog and Shiva is based on individuals that were known to exist, while all of the other primals backstories are more vague.

As for Midgardsormr, it is hinted at that he is a god who was born given a physical form at some point. It is hinted that he is on the same level as Hydaelyn.

There was a third but I forget, lol

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

So - perhaps I'm not crazy, perhaps I'll find that quote

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Still haven't found what made me start saying it in the first place, but I did find this in ARR, basically confirming the idea.

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Originally Posted by Papalymo

The imbalance they have created is plunging the land into chaos, just as Louisoix forewarned.

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Originally Posted by Yda

It's no wonder the primals have started appearing...

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To make sure I'm reading it properly, here's the French text.

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Originally Posted by Papalymo

Louisoix avait raison... l'ordre naturel de cette planète est perturbé.
Louisoix was right... The natural order of this planet has been disturbed.

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Originally Posted by Yda

Voilà pourquoi sont nées des créatures qui ne devaient pas exister, les Primordiaux...
That's why were born creatures that should not exist, the Prim(ordi)als...

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I thought Odin was an old cursed king fated to wander for all eternity with his being implanted in the sword.

Allagans could of made a deal with midgarsorm or just put him to sleep like bahamut.

The garuda lyrics tell her story in a very brief and cloudy way, it is said she was some kind of fallen angel? Maybe one of the dwellers of the floating eden the ixalis want to reach in the ixali beastmen sidequest?

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

French text.

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This lends some weight to my(our?) theory. Thanks!

Though, the theory still doesn't provide any insight into what the primals actually are or what they were, and I'm relooking at how the Ascians fit in to all of this.

Not sure where I'm going with this, but what really struck me during the Chrysalis trial was when Nabriales inverted the background it reminded me so much of Hydaelyn's realm: A big crystal with smaller crystals surrounding it. If those crystals in Zodiark's realm represent each individual Ascien, then perhaps the same is true for the smaller crystals surrounding Hydaelyn?

Ascians, Primals, Elementals, The Twelve, they're all connected...somehow. It's so close, yet so far off...

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Originally Posted by Eloah

The only difference is, the worshipping of Mog and Shiva is based on individuals that were known to exist, while all of the other primals backstories are more vague.

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The problem is - and always has been - the majority's perception of what a primal actually is. They explicitly outline this in-game as part of the King Moggle Mog XII's questline. You have to be willing to think for yourself and not just presume, which is the trap most Eorzeans also fall willing prey to.

My personal belief has always been that primals are simply whatever their worshippers want them to be. They will vary accordingly but they take a default template. Most will temper individuals to their cause, for example, but what if summoners included in their cries of anguish the ability to be possessed / de-possessed at will, whilst still wielding the primal's power and retaining their individuality? I introduce you to Shiva. What if the summoners only wished for a protector to guard them against intruders, against duplicitous enemies who willfully broke an age-old covenant (see Lominsan vs Kobold backstory)? There's Titan. Perhaps something merciless to kill innocents going on about their lives (at sea) in retribution for slain youngsters, decimated nesting grounds and imminent extinction due to intruding "landwalkers"? Hello Leviathan. A merciless harbinger of destruction to carry out mayhem and genocide, fuelled by a generations-old bitterness, boundless hatred towards Gridanians and an arrogance that will challenge the very winds themselves. Hey Garuda!

Before being summoned, primals are drifting the Lifestream like any other fragment of aether waiting to have a purpose, but upon entering our physical realm - the "waking world" - they are given that and take on their own, specific and indestructible identity. This is why they cannot truly be destroyed. Their essense, their unique blend of "aetheric DNA" if you will, simply waits to be summoned back, sacrificing up the aether in crystals their worshippers offer in abundance.

Primals are quite literally the primal ("primordial" or "principal") embodiment of their summoners' wishes, shaped into an aetheric being that becomes sentient. Once it's summoned, they often lose control of it. In order to ensure its continued survival, the primal enthralls its worshippers to make sure it'll be re-summoned. Sound familiar?

I'm a writer and a storyteller myself; an avid lover of all things lore and always in pursuit of knowledge. Sometimes you have to look beyond what's given to you in order to truly understand it, and I think that's the case here too. We'll see with future primals, I suppose!

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

Sometimes you have to look beyond what's given to you in order to truly understand it, and I think that's the case here too.

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Yes indeed. ;)

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

My personal belief has always been that primals are simply whatever their worshippers want them to be... Primals are quite literally the primal ("primordial" or "principal") embodiment of their summoners' wishes, shaped into an aetheric being that becomes sentient.

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I think that's the conclusion most of us would by now share: The primals are literally ideas formed out of prayers and hopes, and given life by the generous application of aether.

What's interesting, though, is how they tie into the overarching theme of A Realm Reborn. I can't find it now, but Yoshida mentioned in a recent interview (or was it a live letter?) that one of the key themes he wanted to explore through the game was the different views of justice that each society holds dear.

I felt that this has always been a dominant part of the story since as long ago as version 1, and it manifests most obviously in the way each city-state is organised, not along ethnic or racial lines (as is usually the case), but rather on ideological beliefs.

For example, Limsa Lominsa's love for "freedom" (and its dark side, the unspoken assumption that it takes overwhelming might to secure that "freedom"), Gridania's wish for sanctity and purity (which leads to a suffocating conformity, as every Gridanian unquestioningly obeys the Elementals' decree) and Ul'dah's belief in meritocracy (that unfortunately breeds a familiar form of elitism, where those who can't or don't prosper are deemed to be worthless scum living off the success of others).

The primals are, in turn, the reactionary response of the disenfranchised masses towards the perceived abuses of "civilised" men. In my mind, the plight of the beast tribes in Eorzea closely echoes that of many nations and cultures in the real world.

It's not too far a stretch, for example, to describe our present geopolitical situation as a "war of civilisations", with embittered Muslims pitting themselves against an apparently uncaring West. Driven to desperation, these "Muslims" have twisted their own religion to serve their own radical agenda. This makes them very similar to Eorzea's tempered beast tribes in behaviour — it's noteworthy that every beast tribe has factions that reject the primals' influence, the way moderate Muslims reject their radicalised brethren in our reality.

The beast tribes are all fighting for justice too. But, needless to say, their idea of "justice" differs from those of the enlightened races. Whose justice is correct? It's an open question for players to "Answer".

And amid this ideological struggle comes the Garlean Empire, which offers an iconoclastic version of "justice": the Imperials claim to be saviours seeking to liberate Eorzea from the "false religion" of the Twelve and the primals.

As a result, I'm tempted to liken the Garleans to the former Soviet Union. And we all know what happened to that "evil empire". :p

I think we can all relate to the Ninja class questline, when the Domans explained that their form of controlling the surrounding elemental prowess is similar to Eorzean's controlling of Aether.
Ifrit, as the lord of the inferno, was borned from flames under the Amaljaas. They needed crystals, loads of it, to even get him into materialization. The Amaljaas' concept of "power" and "hope" is that born of their surrounding. They live in a desert, hot places where the sun shines and it's hot most of the time. So, Ifrit was attributed to such aetheric property, being the lord of inferno, the Amaljaas obviously thought that such an entity holds much power and hope. In times of great needs, especially after Dalamud happened, the Amaljaas needed Ifrit, their "god", to exist. By manipulating aether to their needs, they are able to bring the primal to form.

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

Before being summoned, primals are drifting the Lifestream like any other fragment of aether waiting to have a purpose, but upon entering our physical realm - the "waking world" - they are given that and take on their own, specific and indestructible identity. This is why they cannot truly be destroyed. Their essense, their unique blend of "aetheric DNA" if you will, simply waits to be summoned back, sacrificing up the aether in crystals their worshippers offer in abundance.

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Incidentally, in relation to the idea above, I had wondered in another thread whether it's possible to think of the aether/Lifestream as a "sea of information", from which new forms of life may emerge.

As Applesnap suggests, once created, the "aetheric DNA" of a primal continues to exist in the aether. All it needs is even more aether for it to take corporeal form once more. But this makes me ask a very familiar philosophical question: Which came first? The thing or the idea of the thing? Did the primals exist since the dawn of time, or were they created by the prayers of worshippers? If the primals didn't exist before prayer, how did the worshippers even "know" who they were trying to summon in the first place?

It's a real shame, I think, that RPG worlds don't typically feature philosophers and thinkers. Because these questions would make for very interesting lore discussions. Meanwhile, it's back to pew-pew and more hack-and-slash. ;)

It's interesting you mention the idea of Primals being simply a manifestation of their worshippers' wishes and desires, as this is actually a common idea SE has used before in past FF games (for instance, the Eidolons in FFIX were created from human myth and legend, and would actually change their appearance as the stories and cultural memes that gave them life changed with each retelling - in fact, there was even an instance where it was clearly shown what happens to an eidolon when the stories which bore it die out - they completely lose all shape and just became a bizarre multicolored sphere (Ozma was an example of this). FFXIII's Eidolons took the form of what was in an i'cie's heart, essentially reflecting their personality.

In much the same way, it definitely rings true that the Primals here do indeed take the form of what their summoners desire them to be, albeit a darker, twisted version that corrupts whomever summons them in order to remain anchored in the corporeal realm, as its not just aether that is needed to sustain them, but devotion and worship.

As for the 'chicken and egg' situation in regards to the Primals origins (and the myths of their namesakes),I think the answer is already there in plain sight - if the idea that myth and legend gives form to the Primals, then the Primals have always existed before the current myths and legends of the gods were formed by the various races, especially if the FFIX example I mentioned above is applied. This makes even more sense when you remember in the SMN quest line, how Tristan summons the egi of a supposed unknown 'elder Primal' called 'Belias', which just appears as a larger, purple toned version of Ifrit-Egi. I suggested in an earlier thread that although Belias-egi's form was probably for technical reasons, the fact it resembled Ifrit-Egi does make one start to suspect that the Primals may change form depending on how the stories about them are told, Belias possibly being an ancient form of Ifrit for instance. Either way, a Primal's 'essence' ('aetheric DNA' as you termed it RedLeaf), is probably the only thing consistent, as a Primals form is of course, just a temporary shell that would obviously take the form desired by their summoner. But now I'm rambling.... :p

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Incidentally, in relation to the idea above, I had wondered in another thread whether it's possible to think of the aether/Lifestream as a "sea of information", from which new forms of life may emerge.

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Though, this would imply that all primals draw their knowledge from this shared consciousness - an idea which was brutally murdered by the unforgiving Triple Triad card featuring Ramuh. (so salty)

So, while they may all be from the "aetherial sea", each entity must also be self-contained.

I agree for the most part with Enkidoh, in that primals came before men, but they still must've been created at some point, by something or someone...right? My theory is still under construction (but It's Probably Pirates Paragons).

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Those are both two massive inconsistence which aren't explained, worse they're created by the Trial story.

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I sort of had it in my mind that Zantetsuken actually has two methods for manifesting an Odin body. The first is what we witness in the Trial - the next to touch Zantetsuken after Odin's defeat becomes Sundered, and becomes the next Odin. The second is what happens if NO ONE touches Zantetsuken (or is protected by the Echo): Zantetsuken creates a new body from scratch - out of Aether, perhaps - and out of respect for the individual who defeated him, crafts it to resemble that person.

The former method would be Zantetsuken's preferred method as it takes less effort, but neither does it want to just lay around in the dirt when it could be finding glorious new battles to participate in. And if you think that manifesting a body seems far-fetched, well, in EITHER case, where does Sleipnir come from? Since Zantetsuken already needs to pull a horse out of its metaphorical ass, it's not ALL that unreasonable that it gets a body from the same place.

None of this addresses the issue of how Zantetsuken stays manifested with no worshipers or crystals, but it does cover the seeming inconsistencies between how Odin obtains a body in the trial, and how he gets one after a FATE appearance.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

But this makes me ask a very familiar philosophical question: Which came first? The thing or the idea of the thing?

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Prior to being manifest for the first time, I believe primals don't exist. I meant to imply that they are just like any other piece of non-descript aether in the Lifestream; something that died or passed into the aetheric realm and is awaiting an "assigment", as it were. A primal's birth is a metaphysical, metaphoric one. Their creation is the advent of an idea, of an ardent wish for something or someone to save their people from whatever peril they are mired in.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

FFXIII's Eidolons took the form of what was in an i'cie's heart, essentially reflecting their personality.

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I was going to mention this earlier, but the fal'Cie from the Fabula Nova Crystallis universe (XIII / XIII-2 / Type-0 / XV) are the same as our primals. Here's the quote:

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"In the Famitsu magazine in June 2009, the fal'Cie were revealed to be formed from the crystals residing inside of them that act as their energy sources. The director of the game, Motomu Toriyama, described the fal'Cie as 'god machines surrounding the crystals'."

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A primal's true form is just an aetherically-charged crystal mass, around which it builds a physical body. The most irrefutable evidence of this is at the end of T5, where you get to the small area and see what's waiting there. That's why Bahamut looks artificial, with cables and tubes and conduits, because he technically is. See:

http://xasz.net/wp-content/uploads/2...7314841717.png

Bahamut Prime is in that screenshot. Not the head, but the immense purple crystal "heart" itself, around which Bahamut's body is being re-constructed. Our proof of this being a primal's real form is in the World of Darkness, where we fight the three Atomi on separate platforms. In the centre is Atomos Prime; a mass of red crystal that doesn't look anything like its chosen physical form. This is why primals never leave behind a corpse. Their "body" is just an incredibly intricate construct made out of aether - not really a giant sea serpent or flaming horned beast or mythical moogle king.

Although, this realisation brings about new questions: if a primal's crystal heart can be shattered in the physical realm, can its essense be trapped in the aetheric realm, unable to be resummoned again? Will it then eventually dissipate into nothingness until it's reassigned a new purpose?

Well considering that we know nothing of the aetherial realm ( except that it's basically the afterlife ), who knows if you can trap anything in there. I wouldn't dare to try to close the connexion between the physical and aetherial realms, as all the spirits would wander in the physical realms that would result in chaos.

What we know of the primals is simple, a spirit ( Usually a deified ancestor or a god from the age of gods ) from the aetherial realm called by prayers gather aethers to create a crystal core for its soul ( [Primal's name]-Prime ) then create a "body" of aether which can even be an item, like the Zantetsuken ( It's unknown though if the primal choses the body or if the worshippers give him his body ), the more aether they uses, the stronger they become. That's what a primal is.

So yes, it should be possible to trap their soul and make it impossible for them to eat aether to prevent them from returning, but then they would just have to worship another spirit to replace him.

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Originally Posted by Applesnap

Theory

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Well this sounds familiar - Far before WoD, but the core is the same.

Perhaps, when summoned, the prime inhabits the offered crystals, pushing the elementally aspected aether out to create its primal form. If that's the case, then a primal, once summoned, no longer needs crystallized aether (it's already made it's home of crystals) but is able to draw aether from the environment, akin to what we know of Odin, Black and White Mages. In the same vein, it no longer requires worship, as it's already present and has its will/motive. Though, directly feeding it aether in any form would obviously strengthen its body, so this prime would probably temper its followers and have them continue praying/feeding if power is something it desires (See: Garuda).

On your question; I'd say that the 'crystal heart' is destroyed every time it's defeated and its spirit is sent back into the aetherial realm. However, that heart can be recreated again and again by assembling enough crystals to do so, allowing the prime to once again come forth into it. This is in-line with what we know of summoning and summoners - the only way to stop it from ever happening is to kill anyone who can make it happen (which would be everyone).

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Originally Posted by treuhavik

the only way to stop it from ever happening is to kill anyone who can make it happen (which would be everyone).

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I'd like to retract this statement. If primes/primals operate how we're speculating, you technically could kill the true prime itself, but we'd need some serious help. Just because we defeat Bahamut Prime in T13 doesn't mean he can't be summoned again. This is because, going back to TinyRedLeaf's theory, his presence is recorded in time, in memories, thererfore imprinted upon the aether. So, while a primal may be controlled by a prime residing in its crystal heart, killing said prime can't erase its "aetherial dna" from the aetherial realm, from time and from the memories of living beings.

Thus, the only way to truly kill a prime would be A) Go back in time and wipe the figure, real or not, from history, B) Erase the memory of it from every living being on the planet in the present, or C) Kill everyone.


EDIT:


Forumuser4: "Uh, Vik, this is all well and good, but it doesn't explain how primals were created in the first place."

Are you sure about that, Forumuser4?

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Originally Posted by Y'shtola

And so myth becomes reality...

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When a previously living being's "soul" returns to the "aetherial sea", it carries with it its knowledge, conscious and memories. This means that all someone has to do to birth a new primal is create a myth, a legend, a hero, etc. Once that memory is among the aether, it's separated from reality (pun kinda intended) and logic - it becomes real, so to speak.

Summoning is simply calling that memory, that mental image out of the aether and giving it the means by which to physically manifest.

Belias and Ifrit could be the same mythological fire deity, but since it was called a different name by a different people it became something separate. Imagine if summoning was real, on Earth, Mars and Ares are basically the same deity in mythology, but of different cultures, therefore they would be different entities when called forth from the memories of ancient Greeks or Romans.

Now, the question remains, "Who made these myths, and by doing so, created primals?" And I absolutely, 100%, do not know. It could have been literally anyone throughout history or even the Ascians themselves.