NIN: Huton spam vs Skill Speed

I see many NINs spam Huton for obvious reasons. For those who spam it, what is your reasoning for NOT going for Skill Speed gear? I'm just curious.

Skill Speed only lowers GCD, but Huton increases attack rate across the board so your GCDs are shorter and auto attack frequency is increased. You should always strive to keep Huton up as much as possible.

Skill Speed has 3 major problems:

1) It has slightly lower stat weight than crit to begin with, making crit preferred
2) Skill Speed stat weight drops even further if players are dealing with lag. The mudra lag issue causes Skill Speed's stat weight to drop even further.
3) Higher levels of Skill Speed cause diminishing returns due to TP running out faster.

Here are the stat weights:
Ninja
WD: 9.132
DEX: 1.000
DET: 0.325
CRT: 0.226
SS: 0.215

DISCLOSURE
The Skillspeed for Ninja was calculated without any latency issues. It's evident that Mudra's, coupled with Latency, delays your GDC by a fair amount. With a good connection, your Mudra's will delay your GDC by 0.5s every 20s or so.
If this applies to you, then the appropriate Skillspeed weight for Ninja is:
SS: 0.201
If you're being delayed by 1 second, it'll be approximately:
SS: 0.19

Note: This information was provided by Dervy and can be found in its original location here: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...eight_updates/

Just to point out too that anyone spamming Huton is either in a very strange fight or is doing something very wrong.

Under ideal conditions your ninjutsu should rotate between: Huton -> Suiton (TA) -> Raiton -> Repeat. While this isn't always totally possible or changes for various fight-dependent reasons, just doing Huton every 20 seconds is basically always wrong.

I may be misunderstanding but I don't think you're using the word "spam" correctly, OP.

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Originally Posted by Dyne_Fellpool

I may be misunderstanding but I don't think you're using the word "spam" correctly, OP.

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At least lets hope he's not really seeing people spam Huton and basically only Huton. As Callinon pointed out if that's happening then those ninjas are doing it very wrong.

With how the secondary stats are allocated on the current gear, too much skill speed will sacrifice a lot of crit and det, which will always be more important. Having between 375-425 SS is plenty with Huton up. Some mention wanting a lot of skillspeed to get an extra hit in while other buffs are up, but that extra hit evens out with simply hitting harder with better crit and det, and your TP pool will last longer.

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Originally Posted by Dyne_Fellpool

I may be misunderstanding but I don't think you're using the word "spam" correctly, OP.

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I'm pretty sure using an ability everytime it's off cooldown without rotating to it's other variants is pretty much the definetion of ability spam. Just in this case the ability is on a long cooldown with 4 other options. So what OP is saying is rather then ROTATE in the correct abilities someonee is just 'spamming' one of them.

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Originally Posted by Starrywisdom

I'm pretty sure using an ability everytime it's off cooldown without rotating to it's other variants is pretty much the definetion of ability spam. Just in this case the ability is on a long cooldown with 4 other options. So what OP is saying is rather then ROTATE in the correct abilities someonee is just 'spamming' one of them.

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Oh yeah, if thats what the OP meant then absolutely that is spam. I just didn't think any Ninja anywhere actually does that. If anything, I see Ninjas neglecting to use Huton.

But the OP said "I see many NINs spam Huton for obvious reasons" which, if what you're saying is true, I'd like to know what the obvious reason are lol. That part led me to believe the OP was just talking about making sure the buff is always up, hence my reaction that "that isnt spam" lol.

Anyway, no big deal.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

Skill Speed only lowers GCD, but Huton increases attack rate across the board so your GCDs are shorter and auto attack frequency is increased. You should always strive to keep Huton up as much as possible.

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Adding onto this, the rotation of the Ninja seems as if it was based around Huton, or high intensity Skillspeed levels. If you try the typical Nin Rotation of DE-SF-MU-AE (Then muggle MU when it's falling off), with and without Huton, you'll see that without Huton, the rotation breaks down a lot. You'll end up either clipping or missing your DoTs by a tick, as well as having potency decreases clipping DE as you're trying to keep it on 100% up time.

Another thing is this, If you just build yourself around SkillSpeed, those are item stats you could of invested into Determination. Skillspeed doesn't affect the damage, cast-rate or cooldown of Ration*, where as Determination will. So investing in Determination will benefit both Mudras and Physical Damage.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

*SNIP*

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I won't lie; I hardly use Huton. I've been paired with a NIN with Sasuke Zeta, and a combination of Dreadwyrm and Augmented Ironworks. I'm using Shiva Katanas, some Aug Ironworks, no Dreadwyrm, but I'm usually higher on the Hate List than he, even with his Huton spam.

I seem to play NIN better than my BRD, and had no complaints about my damage out, which is another factor in me dropping BRD. I'm still in the process of being 100% confident with NIN (healers need not worry about me as I dodge well), so I'm gathering info.

I would see NINs using Doton on a boss while I'm spamming Raiton (I think it's Raiton, the Thunder). It would make me think I should be using Doton as well. I usually keep Blood for Blood and Internal Release active, but I will admit that if Kassatsu (if I spelled it right) and Blood for Blood are close to being ready (by a second or two), I'll hold them until both are up. At this point, I'd probably do Suiton > Blood for Blood > Trick Attack > Kassatsu > Raiton. Again, I see other vet NINs do different and I need to see what I need to switch up.

You will definitely see more damage by ensuring you keep Huton up. Obviously you don't just use it whenever, but you want to keep that buff active. Having increased attack frequency is going to increase your damage across the board by using more GCDs and having more auto attacks. Others can guide you on whether or not you want to seek anymore Skill Speed, but increased attack speed from a buff is invaluable since it also effects auto attacks which nothing else currently increases.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

At least lets hope he's not really seeing people spam Huton and basically only Huton. As Callinon pointed out if that's happening then those ninjas are doing it very wrong.

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Yes, I am correct. In battle, I watch other NINs to see what I should be doing. I see the spam every time, under 30 or so seconds.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Yes, I am correct. In battle, I watch other NINs to see what I should be doing. I see the spam every time, under 30 or so seconds.

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Definitely do not do that, or use Doton on a single target as you mention seeing other ninjas doing. However, try to keep Huton up and refresh when it's about to fall off or right as it's falling off. There's a thread called The Ninja Superthread which talks in greater detail about when you should fresh Huton ideally.

20-24+ seconds on Huton and don't reapply it but once it goes under 20 seconds, ideally under 24 to be exact, you want to re-apply it

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Originally Posted by Dyne_Fellpool

*SNIP*
But the OP said "I see many NINs spam Huton for obvious reasons" which, if what you're saying is true, I'd like to know what the obvious reason are lol.

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When asked if there was a reason to keep using Huton rather than other abilities, one NIN told me faster hits I said, "Ohhh... For more damage over time?" He called me "Captain Obvious" lol...

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

When asked if there was a reason to keep using Huton rather than other abilities, one NIN told me faster hits I said, "Ohhh... For more damage over time?" He called me "Captain Obvious" lol...

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Sounds like a someone who totally facerolls while dpsing. Not really the approach you want to take if you plan on playing a melee dps class seriously. Also that Zeta Nin you were outdpsing probably wasn't ensuring his auto-attacks were actually going off. This may be a tad off topic but I can ensure you, losing out of on auto-attacks will absolutely destroy your dps as a melee. Don't let it happen if you can avoid it. Huton makes auto-attack happen more frequently thus making it easier to lose out on them if you're having to move away from the boss for extended periods. Keep facing the boss like your life depended on it and you'll usually top the dps/threat charts in every encounter even with a few botched Mudras here and there.

For NINS using Doton: If you happen to fail your mudra and end up with Doton, it's more dps to use Doton than not using it at all. True, some Ninja's use it always, but some might just had failed and ended up with Doton

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Originally Posted by Slappah

20-24+ seconds on Huton and don't reapply it but once it goes under 20 seconds, ideally under 24 to be exact, you want to re-apply it

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Why should I reapply Huton when it falls below 24 seconds? If it's at let's say 22 seconds I'm going to use Raiton/TA/whatever, because by the time my mudra is back up, Huton will still have 2 seconds left.

Or maybe I just didn't understand your post correctly?

Ninja Superthread says 17 seconds, and while I've not seen the math behind this, it would make perfect sense if there is a point where letting Huton drop for a tiny bit to get an extra Raiton/TA is better even if it's not ideal. At 24 seconds, I would not intentionally Huton.

I don't get why you'd use Huton above 20s? It makes no sense in my head.

If you manage to get a Ration off at 21s, your Mudra's will be available again (without kassatsu of course) with 1s left on your Huton, where you should be reapplying it. Yes, that is technically making it fall off, but it's falling off as you're recasting it thus your GDC's nor AA's should be affected (unless you're unlucky and your AA is supposed to happen during that 0.5s downtime)

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I don't get why you'd use Huton above 20s? It makes no sense in my head.

If you manage to get a Ration off at 21s, your Mudra's will be available again (without kassatsu of course) with 1s left on your Huton, where you should be reapplying it. Yes, that is technically making it fall off, but it's falling off as you're recasting it thus your GDC's nor AA's should be affected (unless you're unlucky and your AA is supposed to happen during that 0.5s downtime)

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I have a feeling that an unfortunate amount of players don't even watch their timers. They just push buttons when they are off cooldown.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

I have a feeling that an unfortunate amount of players don't even watch their timers. They just push buttons when they are off cooldown.

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I just spam whatever move looks the coolest. No point being a DD if you can't look cool being bad at it.

Or do you mean Ninja's who use Hutton well before the fight and then must re apply again because it timed out?
Soooo many Ninja's i have seen do this, and i ask why? I usually only re apply at the 20 second or less mark anything greater then that and other mundras should have been used in between.
Skill Speed in general is not good at all for any class

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Originally Posted by Dervy

I don't get why you'd use Huton above 20s? It makes no sense in my head.

If you manage to get a Ration off at 21s, your Mudra's will be available again (without kassatsu of course) with 1s left on your Huton, where you should be reapplying it. Yes, that is technically making it fall off, but it's falling off as you're recasting it thus your GDC's nor AA's should be affected (unless you're unlucky and your AA is supposed to happen during that 0.5s downtime)

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I've done that in specific fights when I know that if I don't, then I'll have to reapply huton at a less convenient time. Garuda HM for instance. I'll reapply huton at 20+ seconds during certain transitions because I know that if I do, then I'll be able to suiton her when I want to as opposed to having to reapply huton then instead.

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Originally Posted by MrCookTM

Why should I reapply Huton when it falls below 24 seconds? If it's at let's say 22 seconds I'm going to use Raiton/TA/whatever, because by the time my mudra is back up, Huton will still have 2 seconds left.

Or maybe I just didn't understand your post correctly?

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If you have no lag, you can use a ninjutsu with 20-22 seconds left and still be able to reapply huton right as it falls off or right before it falls off.

If you have bad latency you should always try reapplying at 24 seconds or under.

I mean, a lot of the time I use suiton or raiton at 17-19 seconds left and at that point you can reapply at huton basically as its falling off or right after it falls off which is worth it imo

The only real reason why Skill Speed is horrible for NIN is cuz of Ninjutsu. If your global CD is back before you can finish a spell, then you are losing global CD time. The faster your global CD, the more is wasted. The reason why Huton is amazing despite that is cuz:

1) It's super powerful. 15% is amazing, it would still be great even if it didn't include auto-attacks. You could stack all out Skill Speed and probably won't even reach 10% of what Huton would give you in CD reduction alone. Note that it takes much more to reduce your CD by an absolute amount the lower your CD is but the benefit are also much greater (e.g. it takes much more Skill Speed to reduce 0.1 s from a 2.0 s CD than it does from a 2.5 s CD but the damage % increase is also much greater).

2) It's cheap. Giving up a Raiton for a 70s buff this powerful is a no-brainer.

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Originally Posted by PenutButter

The only real reason why Skill Speed is horrible for NIN is cuz of Ninjutsu......

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Yeah in a perfect world you could stack skill speed up to a 1.5GCD with Huton and still fit any Mudras in between.

Skills speed is also kind of bad in that it has diminishing returns with Huton.

2.5 GCD @ 0.85 % = 2.125 GCD (Difference of 0.375)
2.0 GCD @ 0.85 = 1.7 GCD (Difference of 0.3)

It will be interesting to see what they do in 3.0

Skill Speed may gain some value for us when we see how it affects dot ticks. If it could also affect cooldowns then it might not automatically mean we outrun Invigorate too. That'd be pretty sexy.

Yeah come 3.0 things may change for the good, not only for Ninja but much needed changes for smn as well

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Originally Posted by Maero

Yeah come 3.0 things may change for the good, not only for Ninja but much needed changes for smn as well

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I really hope they fix the Mudra System. I suck at following rotations and nothing gets me more flustered then the Mudras half going off/slow/inconsistent, to the point that I forget where I was in my rotation.

The effect of Huton is significantly more powerful than the effect of Skill Speed. Additionally, Skill Speed takes up stat slots better used for core DPS increases.

It would take a significant amount of Skill Speed to match what Huton gives you and then even then you'd still want to apply Huton because it's multiplicative (whereas Skill Speed appears to be additive).

Personally, I weight my Skill Speed to the point of not actually hitting 2.0 while buffed with Huton. You start getting clipping issues with both Mudra and DoTs when you get to 2.0 and further so you're actually not doing yourself any favours (not to mention the insane TP burn). Which is why things like the Shiva daggers are a waste for me. I can easily get enough skill speed without actually statting for it to hit the thresholds I need for 2.0 without sacrificing any Det or Crit.

Now, you shouldn't be 'spamming' the Huton ninjutsu either. As plenty of people here have said, you should be reapplying it somewhere around the late tens/early twenties of seconds based on your skill speed and lag restraints. This is of course assuming you're not going to have a disconnect from the mob. If you are moving between packs or there's a phase change/boss movement that causes you to be unable to engage then depending on how long that disconnect is going to be I'll re-apply Huton early.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

I really hope they fix the Mudra System. I suck at following rotations and nothing gets me more flustered then the Mudras half going off/slow/inconsistent, to the point that I forget where I was in my rotation.

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I'd like to see mudra inputs move client side so the server isn't having to verify each mudra as it's input. Would remove the mudra lag entirely and make the client be in charge of which ninjutsu was used.

My latency is generally pretty good (<40ms most of the time) but mudras still feel really slow and sometimes misfire. It's unreasonable to expect latency better than that and the system still doesn't work quite right. Needs fixed.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Yeah in a perfect world you could stack skill speed up to a 1.5GCD with Huton and still fit any Mudras in between.

Skills speed is also kind of bad in that it has diminishing returns with Huton.

2.5 GCD @ 0.85 % = 2.125 GCD (Difference of 0.375)
2.0 GCD @ 0.85 = 1.7 GCD (Difference of 0.3)

It will be interesting to see what they do in 3.0

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This is misleading. Your numbers are correct, but Huton increases the number of abilities you get off in a given amount of time by about 17%, regardless of your skill speed, so it doesn't have diminishing returns.

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Originally Posted by Menae

This is misleading. Your numbers are correct, but Huton increases the number of abilities you get off in a given amount of time by about 17%, regardless of your skill speed, so it doesn't have diminishing returns.

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Oh you are right. I never thought about it like that.
2.5s GCD = 24 attacks
2.125s GCD = 28 attacks or 16.66% more attacks

2.0s GCD = 30 attacks
1.7s GCD = 35 attacks or 16.66% more attacks

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Was also curious if Skill Speed changes the Ninja Rotation after a certain value.

Like @ 460+ Skill Speed should you open with
- Dancing Edge, Mutilate, Shadow Fang, instead of Dancing Edge, Shadow Fang, Mutilate, in order to alleviate some of the clipping caused by the extra speed.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Words

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At 469 I experienced no significant dot clipping. Maybe an occasional clip at 1 sec, but most of the time the reapplication was perfect.

At 518 I experienced a dot clip at 3 sec with the regular rotation in the beginning, but the 3 input Mudras helped balance things later on and everything went back to normal with an occasional clip at 1-2 sec. I tried swapping Mutilate and SF and after one clip at 4 sec in the beginning I noticed the reapplications returned to normal sooner than when I did SF before Mutilate.

I think with current gear unless you are stacking SS to some ungodly number with crafted gear you won't be able to hit a SS value that will clip your dots at anything above 1-2 sec. For the sake of simplicity I did not count the reapplication of DE as something that could be clipped.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Was also curious if Skill Speed changes the Ninja Rotation after a certain value.

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Interesting point. I am positive at some point you will be clipping Shadow Fang substantially, prompting you to put Mutilate in between your Shadow Fang combos
(which I think would work out opposite of what you posted with Mutliate before), but inevitably, you will be clipping dots. The biggest problem with Ninja is that to delay your Shadow Fang, your options consist of Mutilate (which will be up for most reapplications of Shadow Fang) or an entire Aeolian Edge or Dancing edge combo, which instead of clipping shadow Fang by 3 or 4 seconds, will now have it dropped off for 4-6 seconds instead.
I think basically the realistically usable skill speed cap for Ninja is when you come close to clipping Shadow Fang with Huton up, and any further will have you clipping dots with no feasible means to delay their upkeep.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

Interesting point. I am positive at some point you will be clipping Shadow Fang substantially, prompting you to put Mutilate in between your Shadow Fang combos

I think basically the realistically usable skill speed cap for Ninja is when you come close to clipping Shadow Fang with Huton up, and any further will have you clipping dots with no feasible means to delay their upkeep.

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Here is the Rotation I came up with for a 2 Second GCD (502 Skill Speed ewww)

DE (3) M(1) SF(2) AE (3) AE(3)
DE (3) SF (2) M (1) AE (3) AE (3)
DE (3) SF (2) AE (3) M (1) AE (3)
DE (3) SF (2) AE (3) AE (3)
-> Repeat

It does loop around the DE SF M opener. Although I'm not sure if it changes the average potency/GCD VS a lower SPD rotation.

Edited: Comparing it to the normal Rotation

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D - F - M - A
D - F - A
D - M - F - A
D - F - A - M
D - F - A --> Repeat

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It looks like it would raise your average potency/s by 5% (but since it's only 3/4 of your damage without effecting AA Damage) total 3.75%?

Normal Rotation
Total : 10430 Potency
91.375s
114.25 potency/s

SPD Rotation
Total: 11240
94s
119.6 Potency/s


And if you have a Warrior keeping up Storms Eye - it might be a little better with clipping and gives you a 7% return (only 5% compared to total damage)

(7180 Potency over 62s (116 Potency/s) vs 58s (124 Potency/s)

SF (2) M (1) AE (3) AE (3)
SF (2) AE (3) AE (3) M (1)
SF (2) AE (3) AE (3) AE (3)
SF (2) M (1) AE (3) AE (3)

IMO, I don't think it's worth it at all.

@ 31 Skill Speed to equal the Value of 28 Crit (this is under the most ideal conditions)

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Originally Posted by Menae

This is misleading. Your numbers are correct, but Huton increases the number of abilities you get off in a given amount of time by about 17%, regardless of your skill speed, so it doesn't have diminishing returns.

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Actually the math is correct but the numbers are not because huton doesn't work like his second formula. Huton is always 2.5 gcd x 0.85 =2.125 and then skill speed is factored on top. Unfortunately huton has no affect on skillspeed since it factors in first at base gcd (2.5). the last piece of the puzzle is autoattacks. But that varies by weapon. I think the same formula would apply though
y Weapon speed x 0.85 = z.

1. Huton Multiplies from base gcd vs (I think) .001 additive reduction per sksd.
2.Huton and grease lightning are the only abilities that speed up autoattacks.
Long story short both work separately to reduce gcd but sksp needs to be compared to det and crit which affect autoattacks unlike sksp

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Originally Posted by alsims2007

Actually the math is correct but the numbers are not because huton doesn't work like his second formula. Huton is always 2.5 gcd x 0.85 =2.125 and then skill speed is factored on top. Unfortunately huton has no affect on skillspeed since it factors in first at base gcd (2.5).

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My current GCD is 2.43*.85=2.0655, rounded in the display to 2.07. If your math were right, I would be at 2.125-.07=2.05. So, you're wrong. >_>