[dev1017]Potential problems with item loss from failed materia synthesis

Apparently the current idea is to let people augment their gear with up to five pieces of materia, however, only the first one is safe while the rest are risky (progressively more so?) to attach.

For this thought experiment I am going to assume that HQ versions of top gear (think Crab Bow +3, etc) will remain rare and extremely expensive even past the item revisions.

Unless item rarities go through radical shifts, I expect the combination of rare gear and item loss to create significant problems. The problem is, of course, that those items are too rare and too expensive for risky materia ventures, which means people will more likely experiment with cheaper weapons, such as NQ ones or lower rank items, when they want to go for five materia augments. But can a Crab Bow +3 with one materia compete with a regular Crab Bow with five? We can't say for sure, but I'd say it is unlikely, yet I expect the materials for the HQ version to possibly be even hundreds of times as expensive.

Only those who are extremely far above the median wealth can afford to attempt augmenting very high quality gear. Successful augments further widen the gap between the haves and have-nots, while non-successful ones cause very painful losses. The variance is simply too great and the risk/reward ratio so bad that only people who simply cannot come up with an alternate use for their money can afford it.

It reminds me of the equipment enchantment system of Ragnarok Online where you could end up with unbelievably rare item combinations* and have them vanish into thin air when your entirely luck based, risky enchantment attempt went wrong. This system was not fun and only a miniscule fraction of the player base could afford to put these items together, let alone multiples as insurance in case it blew up on you.

*HQ version of a rare drop attached with one or several extremely rare cards plus the several expensive ores needed for the enchantment process with the risk for failure increasing with each attempt past a certain enchantment level.

You're assuming that HQ versions of gear will remain rare and extremely expensive, that's not likely. HQ is going to be guaranteed with HQ parts and the amount of materials required for synthesis will go down so the rarity of those items will go down considerably. They'll still be rare(r) than the NQ versions though. Is a NQ Crab Bow with 5 materia better than a HQ Crab Bow with 1? Probably however those who gamble and win get that HQ Crab Bow with 5 materia, a completely unrivaled bow in all aspects.

There is going to be no more HQ +1 +2 or +3 just nq and hq from what I've heard.

Unfortunately I've been combating this in a thread that doesn't use the tag. The guy mentioned that +3 bow there, too.

Anyway, I hope it's fine to just quote my two posts here.

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Originally Posted by DNO

Quote from "[dev1017] Materia crafting system (name tentative)"
"A failed attempt to attach materia will result in the loss of all items involved in the process, barring the key item."

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Originally Posted by Soulfire

What is this, a free-to-play game?
Oh, wait...

I am 100% against this, and if it wasn't mathematically impossible I would be more.

To me this is the epitome of free-to-play. As in in my head it's what made all those F2P games I played suck.

And
if
I
could
remember
all
of
them
off
the
top
of
my
head
we
would
probably
have
a
nice
long
list
of
games
not
worth
playing.

Pay money, attempt to upgrade your gear, lose it all, pay more money...
I hate this renowned mechanic with great passion.

I'm not of the gambler mindset.
Time is valuable.
I like my work to actually count for something.

I don't know what's up with you people saying "I'd like all my time and effort to get washed down the river because it'll stimulate the game's economy!"
You've either got a screwed up sense of fun or a desire to wreck others'. (Or bad judgment.)
How 'bout you discard your entire inventory and start buying?
That'll stimulate the economy in perfectly similar fashion. You'll be so pleased!

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

You must be new to the mmo life then. Ragnarok Online was already mentioned above (twice) and there were other games as well that used it quite succesfully. None of those were free to play either. :p

It actually did make one feel like one achieved something in even posses an item with a higher upgrade level.~

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Originally Posted by Soulfire

New to MMO life? I've been doing this for over six years. Granted I did not play many pay-to-play games, so I'll give you that.

When I said it was the epitome of free-to-play I meant it summed up the mechanics I personally would not expect from a pay-to-play game. To my dismay, it appears my expectations have been betrayed, and a number of pay-to-play games are using such systems.

Let me say that again in a way easier to understand. It's not about what's in free-to-play or pay-to-play games. It's about quality. When I have to pay monthly fees to play a game, I expect quality.

Currently this game is free-to-play because it did not meet that bar - that bar of expectation of quality held by so many.

You know what I hate to see?

Tears.
People crying over losing something important.
And especially the jerks who say stuff like "Quit your QQing."

This will become what you see. Over, and over, and over again.

That is NOT an enjoyable environment. That is NOT quality. It makes me so very, very FURIOUS at the people responsible for implementing that system. I do not want to hear how Square Enix caused my dear friends to suffer.

All of it for what? One guy to feel like he accomplished something, you say?

Many others fall into depression and shed actual tears, all so that one guy can have a coveted item and feel accomplished? Feel accomplished because of LUCK?!

Last I checked this game was gonna be based on skill and strategic planning.
Last I checked the aim was to make this game as enjoyable as possible for everyone.
I must've missed the memo that said otherwise.

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just a thought on this

if you care that much about your +3 item
and dont want to lose it, or even chance it

dont enhance it! you already get more stats just cuz its hq, you dont need to fully slot the item with materia past the first

Try socketing Aion gear with 6 stones...(forget what they are called)...

Although you don't use the base gear on failure, just all the socketed parts.

It's looking like the stat bonuses from materia are roughly comparable to the stat bonus gained from a +3 item (perhaps slightly smaller, but more flexible).

As an example, my weapon of choice, an [item=4080301]Iron Halberd[/item] +3. Base stats on Iron Halberd are 169 attack, 150 accuracy, critical 142. So, the +3 adds 26 attack, 23 accuracy, and 22 critical. That is, I could get the same effect by using an HQ Iron Halberd and socketing in three materia with these stats.

So, if an HQ item is roughly equivalent to an NQ items with 3 or 4 materia (but the NQ item is more flexible as to what the bonuses are), this progression makes a bit more sense.

Additionally, the possibly loss of the HQ item is a necessary part of the adjusted economy, as it is the only realistic HQ item sink in the game. If HQ items were not lost, then saturation would occur once each player had bought a single HQ item of each type.

With the proposed system, a player will start with HQ item with 1 materia. This will likely be stronger then an NQ item with 5 (or roughly equivalent). However, the player still has a need for another HQ item, if the price is suitable. Slotting a 2nd materia into an HQ item, while owning just the 1, is too high a risk. However, if a 2nd HQ item is bought at a satisfactory price, then the risk is substantially reduced.

This system will essentially stabilize HQ item prices over a long enough period of time that the dev team had enough time to introduce new gear before the market reaches saturation.

@amineri
the hq system is being redesigned too

so its easier to say its comparable to the system now
not the system as it will become
add in the fact alot of people wont be slotting stats already on their gear

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Originally Posted by Arcell

You're assuming that HQ versions of gear will remain rare and extremely expensive, that's not likely. HQ is going to be guaranteed with HQ parts and the amount of materials required for synthesis will go down so the rarity of those items will go down considerably. They'll still be rare(r) than the NQ versions though. Is a NQ Crab Bow with 5 materia better than a HQ Crab Bow with 1? Probably however those who gamble and win get that HQ Crab Bow with 5 materia, a completely unrivaled bow in all aspects.

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Ok, let's switch it up. Instead of Crab Bow, we'll use Champion's Lance. Champion's Lance requires a Bloody Lance Head from Great Buffalo. HQ Bloody Lance Heads will be extremely rare unless some changes are done here. The only C.Lance +3 I've seen for sale was up for 178 million gil and I think it's very possible they'll become even more difficult to obtain.

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Originally Posted by Amineri

Additionally, the possibly loss of the HQ item is a necessary part of the adjusted economy, as it is the only realistic HQ item sink in the game. If HQ items were not lost, then saturation would occur once each player had bought a single HQ item of each type.

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No successful MMO has item loss because while realistic, it is not fun. MMOs naturally slowly slide towards a post-scarcity economy, which while desirable (no matter what clueless Keynesians will tell you), does not exist in real life.

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With the proposed system, a player will start with HQ item with 1 materia. This will likely be stronger then an NQ item with 5 (or roughly equivalent). However, the player still has a need for another HQ item, if the price is suitable. Slotting a 2nd materia into an HQ item, while owning just the 1, is too high a risk. However, if a 2nd HQ item is bought at a satisfactory price, then the risk is substantially reduced.

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So I'll pay 180 million for an item that's roughly equal to or worse than one that costs 500k. Then I'll buy another one just for a chance to get it up to two materia. Until I manage to climb up to the full five I may have had to fork out 180 million a dozen times or more. That raises the effective gil measured cost of a HQ C.Lance with five materia to billions of gil assuming the materials even exist. And god forbid they introduce a new, superior materia type, which will make you want to purge your Lance and start all over again. Still having fun with this?

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Originally Posted by Frein

The only C.Lance +3 I've seen for sale was up for 178 million gil and I think it's very possible they'll become even more difficult to obtain.

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Just because an item is up for sale doesn't mean it's worth that much. A Champions Lance +3 is worth maybe 20 million maximum. Anyone stupid enough to pay more than that deserves to lose as much gil as the buyer can get.

Bloody Lance Head +3 is not in the game, it's not an item that can drop. Not all mobs drop +3 versions of items. Weapon heads are one of them. Iron Plate +3s don't drop either. How SE will change Champions Lance synth to accommodate this remains to be seen.

HQs will become common. If I could guarantee a crab bow HQ by having all HQ mats I'd have made dozens of them by now. While I have indeed made dozens anyway the majority were +1s. The new HQs will be equal to +2s and +3s.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

HQs will become common. If I could guarantee a crab bow HQ by having all HQ mats I'd have made dozens of them by now. While I have indeed made dozens anyway the majority were +1s. The new HQs will be equal to +2s and +3s.

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I really find it hard to believe that all gear from now on will be common enough that everyone can realistically expect to obtain a dozen of them.

Why not? Crafters already try to use all HQ mats when synthing high end items. Most of these turn into NQs and +1s. A minority turn into +2s and the rare +3. Under the new system they'd all turn into HQ and be of equal value.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Why not? Crafters already try to use all HQ mats when synthing high end items. Most of these turn into NQs and +1s. A minority turn into +2s and the rare +3. Under the new system they'd all turn into HQ and be of equal value.

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There are also NM drops, dungeon drops, NM/dungeon dropped materials, etc.

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Originally Posted by Frein

No successful MMO has item loss because while realistic, it is not fun. MMOs naturally slowly slide towards a post-scarcity economy, which while desirable (no matter what clueless Keynesians will tell you), does not exist in real life.

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I beg to differ, Eve Online is very much a successful and growing MMO (albeit a relatively small market one), and not only are there item loss in Eve - anything and everything you fly can be destroyed anywhere, it is the main driving force behind that game's economy, which is by far one of the most robust and thriving economy that is almost entirely player driven in any MMO.

i think something that would be better than losing the gear when you fail would be that all of the materia already attached are destroyed instead heck you'll already have to turn 5 pieces of gear a the very least (more if you dont get the one you want or you want a higher grade) into materia just to even attempt this.

what i see as the best aspect of materia crafting is the fact you have to turn gear you have worn for a while into it. this will require to either make or buy more gear to try to get the ones they want and effectively revive the economy since making gear of any rank will be worth it now

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

I beg to differ, Eve Online is very much a successful and growing MMO (albeit a relatively small market one), and not only are there item loss in Eve - anything and everything you fly can be destroyed anywhere, it is the main driving force behind that game's economy, which is by far one of the most robust and thriving economy that is almost entirely player driven in any MMO.

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1. Eve Online is a niche market MMO.
2. I believe you can insure your ships in Eve and even then people avoid taking their expensive ships into PVP territory and instead prefer to cruise in tin cans they aren't afraid of losing.

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

I beg to differ, Eve Online is very much a successful and growing MMO (albeit a relatively small market one), and not only are there item loss in Eve - anything and everything you fly can be destroyed anywhere, it is the main driving force behind that game's economy, which is by far one of the most robust and thriving economy that is almost entirely player driven in any MMO.

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I think that the games that does not have an Item loss system have the gears become untradable upon equiping. Which then equals to an item loss economy-wise since you cannot resell it once you are done with it.

FFXIV let's you sell back what you buy, if the items are never destroyed NQ or HQ there will be a point where there is just too much gears in circulation. The only thing is that we will find ourselves with a double item loss system with the materia on top of it. The redeeming aspect is that the crafting system is being adjusted to make producing gears a lot easier, NQ or HQ (easier for HQ than now but will be still rarer), making it so the supply will meet the demand.

If the crafting adjustments really outweigh the loss of gear for a repeated attempt at materia attachment then i don't see it being much of a problem. it'll just be a matter of balancing.

BUT, there are still two issues people really haven't touched on.
1. you need to take gear that you have worn for a while and turn it into materia in the first place. that takes time and effort, and you might not even get the one you want. With that said, you also have to repeat the process or buy materia to even attempt attaching them more than once.
2. What about Rare/Ex gear like dungeon items? im sure that in the end your best gear won't be something that you can just buy or make, you'll have to hunt for them. If you fail that you wont have another as backup; you will have to go out again and get it. Is that really worth the risk?

think about job gear, back in 11 you had to quest for them and it was a one time deal unless you talked to a certain npc to restart them. do you really want to risk losing something that you may never get back again?

@creed its been stated to slot a peice of gear you have to be able to craft it

that translates into : you cant slot materia easily into rare/ex dungeon gear or drops

There is always risk vs reward.
Sure you can multi socket your Crab Bow+3 or w/e but you may lose it.
It comes down to each player to decide if they can afford the risk vs the potential rewards.

The ones with luck or gil to burn will enjoy a little extra power, the rest of us will make due with what's efficient and available.

@vedis: didn't see that but if you can slot them in the future or if its just a harder process then my point is still valid

thought they were getting rid of +'s and making it just HQ

Yes, I forgot to bring up the case of unique/untradeable gear. You can only have one, so if it blows up, you're out of luck until you can find another one. Can you imagine repeating what it took you to get some of the R35 NM gear? The thought of spending another couple hours at Korkoroon, then a couple more, and again a couple more, etc, doesn't exactly thrill me.

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Originally Posted by Frein

Yes, I forgot to bring up the case of unique/untradeable gear. You can only have one, so if it blows up, you're out of luck until you can find another one. Can you imagine repeating what it took you to get some of the R35 NM gear? The thought of spending another couple hours at Korkoroon, then a couple more, and again a couple more, etc, doesn't exactly thrill me.

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I believe Yoshi said somewhere, can't recall where, that rare/ex gears will not be able to receive materias. I tried to search for that quote but couldn't find it. I'll try again today.

I think the quote states you can only add materia to items that you can craft yourself. Which implies U/U gear isn't valid because it is not crafted.

ok here is a part of what I was looking for :

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Famitsu: Rare equipment obtained from NM or specific content and equipment that was crafted, material crafted; how much different do you think the stats will be?

Yoshida: If going by original stats of equipment then equipment from NM or specific content is stronger but… want to say will explain in forums! But we are preparing a method which can be better than NM drop stats. (laugh)

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but it's not the exact quote I had in mind. I'll keep looking since Yoshi says he would explain in forums, which I am sure he did and said that : crafted items with multiple materia > NM/dungeon gears > crafted items with no materia/(one materia?).

that quote is kind of confusing to read, rough translation? anyways the last sentence seems to imply that materia synthing will make craft-able gear stronger than the rare/ex dropped by NMs. still kind of cryptic, but if it is true that NM/dungeon gear cant be upgraded with materia adjustments then wont that make all of that gear inferior and not worth getting? that just sounds like a horrible idea

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Originally Posted by CreedFallenwing

that quote is kind of confusing to read, rough translation? anyways the last sentence seems to imply that materia synthing will make craft-able gear stronger than the rare/ex dropped by NMs. still kind of cryptic, but if it is true that NM/dungeon gear cant be upgraded with materia adjustments then wont that make all of that gear inferior and not worth getting? that just sounds like a horrible idea

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Depends because NM/Dungeons gears will be as good as let's say Crafted gears with 2 materias.

Getting 3-5 materia in a gear will be risky and you might end up loosing it all, so having this "in case" gear could be a good alternative instead of buying another gear.

i guess but i've always pictured the NM/dungeon gear as being the best (until they make better stuff, raise level cap, what have you). it just seems kind of lack luster that you could spend all of this time exploring and looking for this drop gear and end up looking at someone next to you and they have the craftable equivalent and its stronger cause they have 3 or more materia.

maybe if materia gear 3 or 4 = drop gear then that might make more sense to me. in the end we don't know how strongly materia will affect the stats of a piece of gear. we could assume that each grade translates into 1 point in that stat, so grade V is +5 in that stat. but then you only need 2 +5 and you can make any craft gear stronger than its drop equivalent

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Originally Posted by CreedFallenwing

i guess but i've always pictured the NM/dungeon gear as being the best (until they make better stuff, raise level cap, what have you). it just seems kind of lack luster that you could spend all of this time exploring and looking for this drop gear and end up looking at someone next to you and they have the craftable equivalent and its stronger cause they have 3 or more materia.

maybe if materia gear 3 or 4 = drop gear then that might make more sense to me. in the end we don't know how strongly materia will affect the stats of a piece of gear. we could assume that each grade translates into 1 point in that stat, so grade V is +5 in that stat. but then you only need 2 +5 and you can make any craft gear stronger than its drop equivalent

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and thats why theres such a risk in it
your dungeon gear will start out good, but youll have to work to earn it

your crafted gear will start out lesser, but get better IF you are willing to take the risk to make it better

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

and thats why theres such a risk in it
your dungeon gear will start out good, but youll have to work to earn it

your crafted gear will start out lesser, but get better IF you are willing to take the risk to make it better

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This sounds like RMT heaven to me.

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Originally Posted by Frein

This sounds like RMT heaven to me.

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Just like every other fun aspect of the game? Maybe we should just remove all content and have the game be nothing but a grindfest. People just loved that in September.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Just like every other fun aspect of the game? Maybe we should just remove all content and have the game be nothing but a grindfest. People just loved that in September.

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Exactly, plus there are other ways to stop RMT, they don't need to create every content with the "how will we prevenrt RMT if we implement that" in mind. Can't we have a system just for the fun and functionality of it and not care about how RMT might exploit it?

Once all is in place they will be monitoring closely for RMTs I am sure.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Just like every other fun aspect of the game? Maybe we should just remove all content and have the game be nothing but a grindfest. People just loved that in September.

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How is this currently proposed system "fun"? It's like it is because they want to have item decay in the economy, a necessary evil, if you will. I think the BoP + no item loss way is a much better trade-off.

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

Exactly, plus there are other ways to stop RMT, they don't need to create every content with the "how will we prevenrt RMT if we implement that" in mind. Can't we have a system just for the fun and functionality of it and not care about how RMT might exploit it?

Once all is in place they will be monitoring closely for RMTs I am sure.

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They don't need to plan against RMT in everything but there is also no reason to just crash right into the problem for no reason whatsoever.

Basically, there are two options: We can have an annoying system that refreshes demand in the economy but that also leads to domination by gil buyers. Alternatively we can have a proven to be exciting system that promotes skill over deep pockets that also happens to diminish the effects of RMT. Hmm, which one should we choose? They both seem equally good... oh wait, no they don't.

Also, if you think SE can keep RMT in check in a game where they have especially lucrative business opportunities, you're incredibly naive.

Yikes, all this time I was under the impression that "barring the Key Item" meant the piece of gear. Didn't realize it was the item that lets you craft Materia lol.

At least the first Materia fusion is always successful lol.

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Originally Posted by Frein

How is this currently proposed system "fun"? It's like it is because they want to have item decay in the economy, a necessary evil, if you will. I think the BoP + no item loss way is a much better trade-off.

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Games need negatives to keep balance. You can't have it all with no risk. In a game where items can be spam synthed there has to be some way of removing them from the server otherwise you end up with situations where items are worthless, like the crab bow on my server that goes for 35k now. With recipes being simplified it will be even easier to spam synth things. I can see tier 4 materia being worth more than most gear so I don't see why it's a big issue. You probably won't be able to attach materia to raid gear so you'll not be losing super rare gear.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Games need negatives to keep balance. You can't have it all with no risk. In a game where items can be spam synthed there has to be some way of removing them from the server otherwise you end up with situations where items are worthless, like the crab bow on my server that goes for 35k now. With recipes being simplified it will be even easier to spam synth things. I can see tier 4 materia being worth more than most gear so I don't see why it's a big issue. You probably won't be able to attach materia to raid gear so you'll not be losing super rare gear.

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As I said, it's not fun, but rather a type of "necessary evil", though I'd argue that it's not quite as necessary as you may think. FFXI doesn't have item decay and I'm sure it still has a much more functional economy than XIV does. BoE/P (bind on equip/pick up) based games, on the other hand, typically have a majority of the gear coming from outside the economy. It works because you have to actually be able to beat the toughest content to get access to the best stuff. If HQ gear with materia ends up being the best, I'll bet everything I own we'll get complete gear domination by a tiny legit elite along with a handful of gil buyers.