Contagion is way too overrated!

I have seen in many treads how players think garuda is some kind of super pet only because of contagion and that is the only reason why players are using garuda. But why contagion is that special? Because it will extend your dots 15 seconds? Yah that is nice in the fights with lot of downtime and if dots tick during that downtime. But in the fights where there is 100% uptime or almost 100% uptime all of the time? You will win 50% duration of bio2, 62.5% duration of miasma and 83.33% duration of bio. In that time you can cast 2 more ruins than normal? Have you ever think about it, garuda will lose like one of her auto attack that is doing almost same damage than that ruin? I have seen players that use contagion during spur and rouse in their youtube videos. It is almost same than wasting 2 ruins from your pet in order extend your own dots while, you are winning 2 ruins yourself? In the end you do not win anything with your contagion if you do that(may only save a little mana). Ok important thing of contagion is that you will save mana. 50% of bio2, 62.5% of miasma and 83.33% bio = 80 bio2 + 83 miasma + 88 bio - 79 ruin - 79 ruin = 93 mana saved. That is 35% worth of energy drain = 52.5 worth of potency.

Okey there is few things how you can abuse your contagion utility like using miasma2/poison potion/xpotion/raging strikes

-miasma 2
This ability is really expensive cost 186 mana. Ruin cost 79 mana. It will cost 107 more mana than ruin. If you run out from the mana it is 40% worth of energy drain gain. 40% of energy drain = you will lose 60 potency in order you gain 40 potency more than ruin. In the end not worth use at all

-rs and x pot
Both will give you around 20% damage boost(not sure how much x pot will give 2 you). If your normal dots tick like 430~ with rs up 430 x 20% = 86 with 5 extra ticks is 430 more damage with few crits probably 500~ more damage every 3min. In 3 minute 500 / 180 seconds = 2.7 more dps and with x pots 500 / 270 seconds = 1.85 more dps

-Poison potion
Poison potion will do around 250 damage normaly and with contagion double of that. Normaly 250 / 108 seconds = 2.3 dps with contagion 500 / 120 seconds = 4.17 dps, you will win 1.85 dps

Now after all, what is our total gain of dps from contagion if we ignore our pet damage.
2x ruins 600~ / 60 = 10 dps
from mana gain 200~ / 60 = 3.33 dps
rs + xp pot 2.7 + 1.85
poison pot 1.85

total = 19.73 more dps

If Ifrit can himself do 35 - 40~ dps more than garuda even without dragon kick or slashing debuff, is that contagion really that superior anymore? And ifrit will give you more mobility since you can cast bio lot more often.

What is the mana saved by using Contagion versus mana spent though? Not disagreeing with you, just think this should be a factor too when choosing the right Egi.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

What is the mana saved by using Contagion versus mana spent though? Not disagreeing with you, just think this should be a factor too when choosing the right Egi.

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It really depends on what you do with the GCDs Contagion allows you. If you use Miasma II with Contagion, you're essentially not saving any MP.

While I normally use Garuda, mostly because i like the caster type pets, I personally don't care about contagion all that much. While MP is important, I don't think a Summoner needs to watch it as much as the other magic classes. Normally when i use contagin I use it after I used Raging Strikes to increase my attack power, that way the added 15seconds are more beneficial, this is mosty on bosses. For trash I usually use it and then use bane to spread the extended dots to all the enemies.

Also, since no one probably used it after they got summoner, did anyone notice that Emerald Carbuncle has contagion too, lol, different name but same move.

It's neat to think about.

Assuming you're just using your main three dots, and assuming you can somehow time them to never clip or fall off, you'll recast bio 3.33x a minute, miasma 2.5x a minute, and bioII 2x a minute. With contagion these decrease to 2.5x, 1.88x, and 1.5x a minute. Assuming (again) your casts are 2.35s, this saves you about 4.6s. So about two casts, which you'll probably use to cast ruin twice at 80 potency, but at the cost of garuda losing a 100 potency wind blade, so your net gain is about 60 potency.

On the other hand, you can't really perfectly line up your casts like that, so the real benefit is higher. Also the above assumes you'll spend the extra time spamming ruin, which you might not. Also you can time contagion to take advantage of buffs.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

While MP is important, I don't think a Summoner needs to watch it as much as the other magic classes.

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Huh ? SMN is currently the only magic job with heavy MP management problems even when everything goes smooth.

SMNs are already MP starved so using garuda helps.


I've parsed this a few times and where the buffed DOTs can run their full duration(which means near perfect clipping) Garuda does better but only when you use pots +ppp. As soon as those dots are off, ifrit catches up dps wise until you can get a full buffed set of DOTs back up. Not to mention ifrit has 2 chances each attack to crit.

TBH dps wise there is little between them, now when you factor in ifrit + melee buffs etc he will do more, however in fights like t12 t13 garuda can switch and dps instantly ifrit has to spend time going from target to target.

I agree contagion is over hyped.

The reason you use Garuda mainly, is because Ifrit spends time travelling to the target. Garuda has no problem just attacking.

As for Contagion, people really don't seem to think about how strong it is with buffs.

Example.

You've just put your DoTs on the target. A few seconds later, Raging Strikes come off CD and Contagion comes off CD. Now, you have two scenarios here depending on your Egi.

Ifrit: Wait until your DoTs are just about to fall off to before popping Raging Strikes to re-DoT, which is a net loss since you've held a CD you should have used instantly as it came off CD.

Garuda: Pop Raging Strikes and at the end of the buff timer when your DoTs are just about to drop, reDoT and use Contagion to get a huge DPS boost.

The second scenario would yield a much higher DPS gain than you would with Ifrit.

Its not even that contagion would add up DPS, it just saves MP. T13 I'm ok on MP up to first Dive phase with garuda, usually there bard plays Ballad because nothing to attack anyway and then plays at the start of last phase so I just switch out ifrit while sitting on Neurolink because Mp wont be issue for the rest of the fight. First phases it will be issue, just because of multidotting. You can barely dps dummy for 3-4min, and p1+2 usually tends to take 5min ish so cutting out miasma2, even w contagion, and few ruin2's to save MP.

I'd use ifrit on every fight but so far its just UGH. T11 kinda need garuda on add phase, usually swiftcasting ifrit for the last add and last phase. T12 I'm dpsing bennus so the amount of running around with ifrit is just silly so I prefer garuda, who can start dps asap.

There's no reason to make Ifrit run around. Stick it on the biggest, baddest enemy and leave it there. You don't need it to go chasing birds.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

now when you factor in ifrit + melee buffs etc he will do more.

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Even without slashing and blunt debuffs, Ifrit still comes out well ahead.

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Originally Posted by Jeckyl_Tesla

As for Contagion, people really don't seem to think about how strong it is with buffs.

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No, it's definitely been considered. Without buffs, Contagion's DPS would be completely insignificant. The problem is, buffs are only up so often. In a 10 minute fight, Contagion would give you 60s of 20% buffed DoTs that you would not have had without it, but Ifrit would give you 10 minutes of 20% stronger pet DPS.

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There's no reason to make Ifrit run around. Stick it on the biggest, baddest enemy and leave it there. You don't need it to go chasing birds.

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Suppose I could try it next time, we got plenty more gear since I last tried, but without pet bennus stayed alive too long. Good thing our brd just got bow so should be np :p

I've done the numbers etc, Ifrit does more raw damage, but every 5minsroughly (assuming you perfectly clip dots) garuda allows a little more DPS. But this is ignoring outside buffs, crit rates etc.

At the end of the day garuda is best seen as the mp saving egi, and considering the current state SMN is in for FCOB that is what is needed. Unless the healers need MB, it will very rarely go up. Thankfully in t13 they need it otherwise I would run dry.

I mean, by all means, test it. Parse it over the next few nights on multiple different bosses and let people know. Though I still think Garuda is still the stronger pet, unless it's for some tank and spank fights (T8 style)

Ifrit with 100% uptime on boss with melee debuffs with good crit stat will outdps garuda and anything she brings it seems.

But if a fight with 100% you MP is going to be hit hard.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Ifrit with 100% uptime on boss with melee debuffs with good crit stat will outdps garuda and anything she brings it seems.

But if a fight with 100% you MP is going to be hit hard.

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Even in MP intense fights, it's far better to use Ifrit with the occasional Energy Drain, than Garuda without.

i.e.
Garuda 130 DPS
Ifrit 156 DPS

1/3 Energy Drain - ~10 DPS loss from 150 Potency over 60 seconds.

+16 DPS

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Ifrit's movement over Garuda does not have a major effect on his DPS due to both AA and BS having a 3 second CD. Due to his fast movement speed he can pretty well be anywhere between that CD. But you should keep him on the major boss for 0 downtime.

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Garuda is not the MP Conservation Pet - she is the AOE pet. Nothing Ifrit has to offer compares to Contagioned/Baned Dots 3+ Targets.

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Originally Posted by mvenom

Suppose I could try it next time, we got plenty more gear since I last tried, but without pet bennus stayed alive too long. Good thing our brd just got bow so should be np :p

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Yeah, it definitely depends on your party comp how you deal with the Bennus. My group has a BLM and Bard, so aside from a Bio and Miasma II (hits Phoenix as well) and two Ruins on the Bennu, Ifrit and I stay on Phoenix the whole time. Our bard sings Ballad during the Bennu phase so that lets me stand in melee range and burn a lot of Ruin II's to get in lots of AA damage on Phoenix as well. (I usually end the 2nd phase with 200 MP and 1 Aether stack to Bane the first group of bennus in phase 3)

If you don't have anyone else to help with the Bennu's besides the Bard in phase 1/2 then timing your dots to have >9s before the Bennu spawn to Bane, Energy Drain, Fester on the Bennu then Ruin to finish it off. That way you can keep Ifrit on Phoenix the whole time. Just watch using EG/Fester right away for pulling hate. (this is assuming you tank Phoenix in the center, which you should to accommodate SMN)
This means you'll have to save all your Aetherflow just for the Bennu, and keep all your Dots on Phoenix while killing the bennu as well.
Keep dem dots roll'n

It's not the direct DPS garuda does, its the DPS she allows the SMN to do.

Extends buffed DOTS +Poisons and frees you up to cast more ruins.

Garuda is egi that conserves the most MP for the SMN as it will decrease the amount of DOT casts.

Both pets AOE, aerial slash has slightly more range but that is negligible in the grand scheme of things.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

I've done the numbers etc, Ifrit does more raw damage, but every 5minsroughly (assuming you perfectly clip dots) garuda allows a little more DPS. But this is ignoring outside buffs, crit rates etc.

At the end of the day garuda is best seen as the mp saving egi, and considering the current state SMN is in for FCOB that is what is needed. Unless the healers need MB, it will very rarely go up. Thankfully in t13 they need it otherwise I would run dry.

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Your personal DPS will be higher with Garuda, but over an extended fight, that amounts to less than what Ifrit brings, even without any slashing/blunt debuffs. I compared the two a few weeks ago over 5 minutes, doing everything I could to give an edge to Contagion such as Miasma II and Potent Poisoning Potions.

SMN: 358
Garuda: 135
Total: 493

SMN: 344
Ifrit: 171
Total: 515

I've ended up with a similar gap in actual encounters as well, and my group doesn't even have a MNK. Been using Ifrit on every fight since December without issue, only getting Ballad in T13. I only use two Energy Drains in each turn, and one of them is generally a "The boss is almost dead but I can't Fester" situation.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Both pets AOE, aerial slash has slightly more range but that is negligible in the grand scheme of things.

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Usability aside, Aerial Slash has a small edge over Flaming Crush because of damage types as well; Ifrit's physical attacks do something like 70% the damage per potency that Garuda's magical attacks deal. Garuda's Aerial Blast is also quite a bit easier to aim than Ifrit's Inferno, although the latter is the stronger attack in this case.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

Huh ? SMN is currently the only magic job with heavy MP management problems even when everything goes smooth.

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Well then i must be doing something right or wrong because my MP is never an issuse, rarely do i dip below half.

And shouldn't WHM be the only magic job with MP management issues since they don't have any decent form of MP recovery, SMN/SCH have Aetherflow and Energy Drain, and BLM have Umbral Ice, WHM only have Shroud of Saints, which everyone agrees sucks.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Well then i must be doing something right or wrong because my MP is never an issuse, rarely do i dip below half.

And shouldn't WHM be the only magic job with MP management issues since they don't have any decent form of MP recovery, SMN/SCH have Aetherflow and Energy Drain, and BLM have Umbral Ice, WHM only have Shroud of Saints, which everyone agrees sucks.

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I have zero MP management problems with my WHM (5k MP might help though), and shroud, if used well, is a very good tool.

On the other hand, SMN are forced to reduce their DPS if they want to maintain their MP, by using more Energy drain than they'd want in detriment of bane (AoE) or Fester (solo). If they don't, they're MP starved in around 4/5 minutes and can't do anything after that.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

I have zero MP management problems with my WHM (5k MP might help though), and shroud, if used well, is a very good tool.

On the other hand, SMN are forced to reduce their DPS if they want to maintain their MP, by using more Energy drain than they'd want in detriment of bane (AoE) or Fester (solo). If they don't, they're MP starved in around 4/5 minutes and can't do anything after that.

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I rarely use Energy Drain, only in those rare instances that I actually need it, But a higher MP pool could help. I think mine is around 4k or so, since Summoners do actually have the lowest overall MP of the magic classes, ironically.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Well then i must be doing something right or wrong because my MP is never an issuse, rarely do i dip below half.

And shouldn\\\\'t WHM be the only magic job with MP management issues since they don\\\\'t have any decent form of MP recovery, SMN/SCH have Aetherflow and Energy Drain, and BLM have Umbral Ice, WHM only have Shroud of Saints, which everyone agrees sucks.

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The MP issues are related to endgame content. MP isn\\'t really an issue outside of FCoB.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

Well then i must be doing something right or wrong because my MP is never an issuse, rarely do i dip below half.

And shouldn't WHM be the only magic job with MP management issues since they don't have any decent form of MP recovery, SMN/SCH have Aetherflow and Energy Drain, and BLM have Umbral Ice, WHM only have Shroud of Saints, which everyone agrees sucks.

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http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...nt/category/4/
Guy havent done even Turn5, so yea. Dont talk about things u dont know about.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I rarely use Energy Drain, only in those rare instances that I actually need it, But a higher MP pool could help. I think mine is around 4k or so, since Summoners do actually have the lowest overall MP of the magic classes, ironically.

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4k mp as smn? are you drunk or what.

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Originally Posted by mvenom

http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...nt/category/4/
Guy havent done even Turn5, so yea. Dont talk about things u dont know about.

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no need to be an ass about it. He was most certainly genuinely saying that he hadn't encountered any MP problems yet.

Eloah, you should have around 3k MP as a SMN, which is really laughable when you start high end content (fights lasting around 10 mins with little to no downtime to regen you MPs)

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Originally Posted by mvenom

http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...nt/category/4/
Guy havent done even Turn5, so yea. Dont talk about things u dont know about.

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Wow, what a DICK MOVE looking up my achievements; lets do that for everyone on the forums and tell them they don't know what they are talking about simply based on their achievements. Plus you are assuming that the achievements on THIS CHARACTER line up with my own, couldn't I have another character on another account, or have tried FCOB on a friends account. You don't know, so don't tell me to not talk about things I don't know. I am aware that a majority of you were talking about coil, so I never mentioned it, I only said "I HAVEN'T HAD ANY MP ISSUES". Oh and as for why I haven't cleared T5 yet, as you were so kind enough to point out; you should do that for eveyone you feel doesn't know what they are talking about. Anyway, I've been busy helping FC members and friends reach end game content and getting better gear, how dare I. Because coil is so much easier than CT, I should've focused more on that I guess. But what do I know, I HAVEN'T CLEARED T5 YET!

EDIT: Oh, and FYI, I blocked that page now. But maybe should find an accomplishment you haven't done and post about it. But I would never do that to a fellow player, since I know it's about having fun, not how much you've accomplished.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

no need to be an ass about it. He was most certainly genuinely saying that he hadn't encountered any MP problems yet.

Eloah, you should have around 3k MP as a SMN, which is really laughable when you start high end content (fights lasting around 10 mins with little to no downtime to regen you MPs)

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1: Thank you for defending me, I appreciate it.

2: I wasn't trying to say my MP is 4k or more, it's maybe about 3500-3800, I think. I can't really remember, but I know it's closer to 4k than 3k, unless I'm just being hopeful, lol. But I don't think it's too important to look at right now. As you indicated, and someone so "kindly" pointed out, MP management in FCOB is more daunting, and I have yet to experience it.

Edit: I am adding this because i know it will come back to bite me if someone decides to look up my character and post how much MP I have as a Summoner. My actual MP, when not in a dungeon is 3114. I don't know if I was mixing up the 3- from Summoner and the -550 from Scholar, or if I only paid attention to my MP when I'm in a dungeon, when it is usually raised by a percentage, like 10% or so, either way I was wrong and my MP is closer to 3k as Kuwagami indicated.

Hey
Can I ask how long the fight was, the issue with the DPS with garuda is that its ranking fluctuates depending on the length of the fight.

Like I said around the 5minish intervals garuda does best, but the more you move away from that ifrit is best off.

Its annoying because I've done some parsing on dummys (I know not ideal) and when I parsed 4 mins ifrit and I did more, but 5 mins garuda did more.

Then I tried again at 8min ifrit + I did more, then again at 10mins garuda + did slightly more by that point.

If they took contagion off garuda and gave it to SMN garuda would be a lot less viable. I know ease of use is a factor when comparing utility etc I choose to ignore things which can be overcome by practice. I have no issue using all of the pets actions and making sure they hit.

You cant have 3500-3800 mp, unless you put your attributes in piety, melded everything with piety etc. I have 2983 MP, depending on race you can have few points more or less.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

It's not the direct DPS garuda does, its the DPS she allows the SMN to do.

Extends buffed DOTS +Poisons and frees you up to cast more ruins.

Garuda is egi that conserves the most MP for the SMN as it will decrease the amount of DOT casts.

Both pets AOE, aerial slash has slightly more range but that is negligible in the grand scheme of things.

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Yeah, but the DPS gain for SMN over a long fight ends up pretty minimal.

In my example I was showing that Garuda technically doesn't save MP because with Ifrit you can deal more damage for the same MP cost.

Garuda is the AOE pet due to Contagion + Bane, not so much from Aerial Slash vs Flaming Crush (you're lucky to hit the mob you're attacking with Flaming Crush let alone AOE with it without rigorous micro management)

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Originally Posted by mvenom

You cant have 3500-3800 mp, unless you put your attributes in piety, melded everything with piety etc. I have 2983 MP, depending on race you can have few points more or less.

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It's 7.25 MP/PIE for smn, right? (or maybe just a flat 7, I forget)

Between relic and 110 crafted gear, you can add +169 PIE. That is well over 4k without touching your 30 bonus attributes.

Ya this one really is a no brainer. There are a ton of people that still believe that Garuda is superior to Ifrit due to contagion, but it just simply is not true.

Garuda is only better than ifrit if:
1) The enemy you are attacking takes more damage from magic attacks (garuda=magic, ifrit=physical)
2) The enemy uses a lot of circular knockbacks (knocking ifrit away frequently and causing you to have to heal him more often)
3) The encounter requires a lot of running around (travel time is high)
4) The encounter has A LOT of AoE adds with high health (bane+contagion is great against adds that will live longer than 30 seconds)
5) You are not adept at repositioning your pet

That's it! And oddly enough, there are WAAAAAY more encounters in the game that do not have these issues than there are that do. This pretty much makes ifrit the stronger egi in the majority of situations.

For FCoB, I only use garuda for T11 (this is because I am sometimes the only mage and it is my job to kill the cube (high physical defense)). Ifrit is superior in all other situations I have run into so far (I have not done T13 yet)

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

It's 7.25 MP/PIE for smn, right? (or maybe just a flat 7, I forget)

Between relic and 110 crafted gear, you can add +169 PIE. That is well over 4k without touching your 30 bonus attributes.

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Thank you!

I'm glad this thread was made to hopefully finally clear up this misconception.
Titan- solo (obviously)
Garuda- aoe/ slight mp management
Ifrit- single target dps

Raging strikes cooldown is just too long to make garuda a better choice. She is by far the better aoe pet. Bane/contagion combo plus her higher damage from magical attacks is far superior to ifrits physical damage plus an Autoattack on 1 enemy

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Originally Posted by alsims2007

I'm glad this thread was made to hopefully finally clear up this misconception.
Titan- solo (obviously)
Garuda- aoe/ slight mp management
Ifrit- single target dps

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tbh, I'd prefer ifrit for AoE situation (dungeon usually, I don't raid with my SMN) because his skills are all AoE based. Monsters do not live long enough to justify the use of contagion most of the time

Contagion as a regular ability can help SMNs alot at the same time increase their DPS if they switch from garuda to ifrit due to him being buffed patches ago.

I just use Garuda so no one will bitch at me about, being noob or not know what they're doing. I'd like to use Ifrit-egi for the dps, but last time I did that some a-hole called me out about it and nagged me to use Garuda saying, "Why aren't you using Garuda, Garuda gives more dps blah blah blah."

Using Garuda = no one bitches
Using any other egi's = someone will bitch

So in conclusion: I use Garuda to shut up the a-hole crowd.

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Originally Posted by Tayolynn

I just use Garuda so no one will bitch at me about, being noob or not know what they're doing. I'd like to use Ifrit-egi for the dps, but last time I did that some a-hole called me out about it and nagged me to use Garuda saying, "Why aren't you using Garuda, Garuda gives more dps blah blah blah."

Using Garuda = no one bitches
Using any other egi's = someone will bitch

So in conclusion: I use Garuda to shut up the a-hole crowd.

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I would have told him to parse me or STFU. Seriously though, the legit players in this game are (for the most part) aware of Ifrit's usefulness. I've never gotten a complaint.

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Originally Posted by Tayolynn

I just use Garuda so no one will bitch at me about, being noob or not know what they're doing. I'd like to use Ifrit-egi for the dps, but last time I did that some a-hole called me out about it and nagged me to use Garuda saying, "Why aren't you using Garuda, Garuda gives more dps blah blah blah."

Using Garuda = no one bitches
Using any other egi's = someone will bitch

So in conclusion: I use Garuda to shut up the a-hole crowd.

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Sadly this is common. It is why I use Garuda when grouping with randoms. I also only do in consequential content with randoms so in those cases it probably wouldn't matter much if I had titan or even no pet out... Lol.

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

tbh, I'd prefer ifrit for AoE situation (dungeon usually, I don't raid with my SMN) because his skills are all AoE based. Monsters do not live long enough to justify the use of contagion most of the time

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Uh.. I dunno where you got the idea that all of Ifrit's skills are AoE based but it's just not quite right. His auto attack, Crimson Cyclone, and Burning Strike are all single target. Flaming Crush is a circular AoE but it is centered around Ifrit and has piss poor range so you practically will not hit anything unless they are hugging Ifrit's hitbox. Radiant Shield only works if Ifrit takes damage from the enemies so unless you have him sitting in every AoE attack, it's not going to give you anything. His Enkindle is a conal attack so unless you place him properly, it has a chance to miss a group of adds. Including Enkindle, Garuda is just the better pet for trash packs/adds.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

snip

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is that so ? I always thought his basic skill (not auto attack) was a cleave. Well, I don't know (all in all, I'm not a SMN main and rarely use it out of dungeons), I vaguely remember some consensus back in days when people were saying "Ifrit for trash, Garuda for bosses" and I just stuck with it, guess I was wrong :p

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Originally Posted by Tayolynn

I just use Garuda so no one will bitch at me about, being noob or not know what they're doing. I'd like to use Ifrit-egi for the dps, but last time I did that some a-hole called me out about it and nagged me to use Garuda saying, "Why aren't you using Garuda, Garuda gives more dps blah blah blah."

Using Garuda = no one bitches
Using any other egi's = someone will bitch

So in conclusion: I use Garuda to shut up the a-hole crowd.

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Haha ya this is really common, but every time someone bitches and you politely tell them that ifrit is higher DPS, they might actually go look and see that it is true! Improving player intelligence, one player at a time!

lol.... but ya, some people don't know about ifrit yet