Xeno's Warrior Opener Guide *updated 2.5

Greetings Friends!
New and updated Warrior opener. Very similar to the one in my first video however I go a little more in depth with this one. Hope you enjoy! :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-cA-DGAdg4

and starting with eye combo doesn't give you any enmity issues?

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

and starting with eye combo doesn't give you any enmity issues?

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In a coordinated group it shouldn't.

In a PUG it can, especially BRDs and BLMs getting lucky procs.

I usually open with SE, and it's rarely a problem (sometimes Ninjas can pull for a second)... however, with Paladins I can't. The other night we tried a T6 speed run just for fun, and the Paladin in my static (we both have i130 weapons) pulled aggro and kept it for a few GCDs. Rafflesia cleaved the group :/

That was with Unchained + Berserk on my SE.

It's the main reason I don't opt to pull first in FCoB. I know it would be a dps increase to start the fight with Unchained and Pal Sword Oath, but I know I'd have to cripple my opener just to get the snap threat needed. So I just start as OT.

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Originally Posted by Abbul_Stonecleaver

I usually open with SE, and it's rarely a problem (sometimes Ninjas can pull for a second)... however, with Paladins I can't. The other night we tried a T6 speed run just for fun, and the Paladin in my static (we both have i130 weapons) pulled aggro and kept it for a few GCDs. Rafflesia cleaved the group :/

That was with Unchained + Berserk on my SE.

It's the main reason I don't opt to pull first in FCoB. I know it would be a dps increase to start the fight with Unchained and Pal Sword Oath, but I know I'd have to cripple my opener just to get the snap threat needed. So I just start as OT.

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This can probably be solved with having the PLD lead with Fracture instead of RoH combo. If that's not enough, do Fracture -> Riot Blade Combo -> RoH spam. If pulling hate still happens your PLD probably just overgears you or something.

I have heard of Paladins having to change their opener for this reason. Seravi here for example said he only put Fracture on his hotbar for that purpose. I could tell my Pal to change his opener and see how it goes if we ever opt to switch it up. Eventually we're gonna try the 3 Bennu push I imagine, and at that point Warrior opening would help more.

You can't really pull it off in vit gear. You have to be doin man mode war loaded with str (hybrid or otherwise)or you won't generate enough enmity of your dps aren't horrible. The str let's you get away with stuff like not open in with BB. This is one way to leverage that extra enmity str affords you.

I just pause for a split second with RoH. As long as RoH doesn't go off before SE I don't rip hate. (assuming a zerk,unchained SE)

I wish SE would give PS4 players a parse so I could test out if opening with Fracture and then ending your berserk with fracture as an OT is a DPS gain against just going straight into Eye combo.

Le Sigh.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

I wish SE would give PS4 players a parse so I could test out if opening with Fracture and then ending your berserk with fracture as an OT is a DPS gain against just going straight into Eye combo.

Le Sigh.

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Clipping DoTs in rarely a good idea. So no you wouldn't want to do that. Just make sure you get fracture in during berserk.

But if I only clip Fract by 6 seconds... I'll have gotten 260/300 potency. 240 potency is 30 potency higher than the average of the non-berserked BB combo (highest dps). So since we aren't applying it under maim, you have to adjust the average of your other combos (which is like 202.5 or something) by 20%, which makes that average like 247 or something. So its potentially a 13 potency per GCD gain?

So.... its really unclear is my point lol.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

In a coordinated group it shouldn't.

In a PUG it can, especially BRDs and BLMs getting lucky procs.

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Doesnt matter if it is a pug or coordinated. I help a lot of groups with FCoB and if anything it is easier in a pug to hold aggro because the opening burst my main group produces is banana sandwich!. The buffs you weave in will help you produce extra aggro and you should not lose hate.

shouldve waited for double inner beast

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Originally Posted by d4gz

shouldve waited for double inner beast

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haha yea! thats the dream pull! but in most situations that wont happen X.X

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Originally Posted by Xenosys

Doesnt matter if it is a pug or coordinated. I help a lot of groups with FCoB and if anything it is easier in a pug to hold aggro because the opening burst my main group produces is banana sandwich!. The buffs you weave in will help you produce extra aggro and you should not lose hate.

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Disagree. Not every WAR is BiS. An IW War vs a couple i135 dps can run into issues with your guide.

Our Static war (rag with BiS armor) uses your exact rotation and it gets hairy before BB with our i135 BLm and BRD. After BB it's all gravy.

Depends more on how much STR you have than how much gear you have, though that's pretty debatable as well. I can see an i130 BRD pulling with lucky procs, but BLM has ramp up time starting with T3 -> F3 -> Raging -> F1 -> [proc] -> F1. Even with FS procs, you should be @ Eye by the time they have a possibility of launching one. An Unchained + Zerk + IR + Maim'd SE is pretty ridiculous on enmity. It is, of course, up to the discretion of the WAR to decide whether it will work for him/her or not, though. Optimally (for enmity, for damage, for everything) you'd want to open with SE, but if it's not possible for you then it's not possible for you. It's not the end of the world to open with BB after all.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

Disagree. Not every WAR is BiS. An IW War vs a couple i135 dps can run into issues with your guide.

Our Static war (rag with BiS armor) uses your exact rotation and it gets hairy before BB with our i135 BLm and BRD. After BB it's all gravy.

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I use this same rotation on my alt that is I112(shiva axe) against all dread weapon players for farming and sell runs. The rotation is solid. If you are losing out on aggro then it is due to range not using quelling or you are not activating buffs properly in between gcd's. Whenever I post rotations or guides I always keep in mind the vast majority of players, because you are absolutely correct, not everyone is BiS. Most of my testing is actually finalized from my alt before i post. Also tell your warrior to try starting with OP not tomahawk. Or if they need to reposition the boss, use OP after the tomahawk as he runs through to get in front of the boss if he is still having issues. Str may also be an issue as well. This rotation is not for VIT heroes. Too much VIT=Bad. Anything over 10.5k needs to be put into str. You can actually go lower depending on your comfort and how much you turn defiance off.

I guess that's my point. It IS the ideal opener.

But there are times/players that would look bad using it.

But then again people taking the time to view a guide at least are trying to research.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

I guess that's my point. It IS the ideal opener.

But there are times/players that would look bad using it.

But then again people taking the time to view a guide at least are trying to research.

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Yea my gear and rotations are based on a very specific play style so i can definitely see what you mean.

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Originally Posted by Xenosys

Yea my gear and rotations are based on a very specific play style so i can definitely see what you mean.

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Ive watched alot of your vids and i think you do a great job tanking, but i can tell you this right now, there is no way you would hold agro from me with that opener. Id have it off of you before you ever got close to your first butchers.

With the alt*

It works just fine if 2 qualifications are met.

1. You have some semblance of str accs/Hybrids/str spec. If you don't have str you don't have threat.
2. Are in the same general ilvl/weapon range of your party.

if you are undergeared or a hp hero then you don't have the threat generation to 'get away' with this opener. But it works like a charm against anything but a pld opening with halone (I like the fracture comment ).

I started pulling with overpower a while back. It's just such superior initial enmity that it affords pushing limits like this opener. I don't know why it's not standard yet.

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Originally Posted by Hakmatic

With the alt*

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A good DPS will never pull hate. Any static the WAR should be able to use this opener. Epeen PUG groups are where the issue lies.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

A good DPS will never pull hate. Any static the WAR should be able to use this opener. Epeen PUG groups are where the issue lies.

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I don't get this. This is completely counter-intuitive.

Wouldn't a good DPS be the one that is to RIP hate?

I mean a bad DPS would have some non-optimized opener and would probably not deal enough damage.

Regardless you can easily pull this opener off in any content with any DPS. If you are so undergeared that you lose hate with this opener then chances are you would lose hate either way.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

Wouldn't a good DPS be the one that is to RIP hate?

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If you rip hate and then die, all that good DPS goes to waste.

If you rip hate and lose positionals (drg/mnk), that good DPS becomes average to low since you've lost potency on your opener.

Ripping hate off the tank usually isn't a good idea unless you won't die from what you've stolen and don't have positionals to worry about. You are, however, cutting into the healer's DPS as now they have 2 people to heal instead of just one.

This used to be a lot more apparent in 2.0 when hate wasn't as abundant as it is now and DPS had to actually watch what they were doing. Now everyone expects the tanks to do their job so they can faceroll the keyboard and score max deeps even when they severely outgear the tank.

Also Quelling Strikes. Very important.

If he can lose hate to a range dps not using Quelling(Which he says happens) then he will lose hate to a good melee with his 115 axe is what im saying.

Can only potentially lose hate to Bard no Quelling with lucky procs, BLM has too much ramp up time.

I think "I can pull aggro off this, easy" without posting evidence is pretty sketch. A lot of people say the SE opener will lose hate but nobody ever proves that. I'd love to see some math, or a video, or something.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

If you rip hate and then die, all that good DPS goes to waste.

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If I rip hate it is the tanks fault. At least in this game. The mentality that "Good DPS control hate" works in some games but just not this one. A good DPS does... good DPS here that is it.

No idea why people stick behind that silly mentality here.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

If I rip hate it is the tanks fault. At least in this game. The mentality that "Good DPS control hate" works in some games but just not this one. A good DPS does... good DPS here that is it.

No idea why people stick behind that silly mentality here.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

This used to be a lot more apparent in 2.0 when hate wasn't as abundant as it is now and DPS had to actually watch what they were doing. Now everyone expects the tanks to do their job so they can faceroll the keyboard and score max deeps even when they severely outgear the tank.

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You usually won't have to control your hate as a DPS, rarely is a tank undergeared enough where this is a thing. It used to be a thing, it's not so much anymore. But if you're on the verge of ripping off a tank, while it is the tank's fault if they are appropriately geared, you still shouldn't rip hate because you surviving and contributing DPS is more beneficial to the party than you dying and screaming "L2TANK OMFG" when the DPS check isn't met and everyone wipes. A good DPS realizes they're going to steal aggro and doesn't, a bad DPS keeps hitting the thing until said DPS gets murdered. This is universal. It's less apparent in this game since it rarely happens, especially at this point, but it's still a situation where You Not Dying > You Dying in terms of damaging the boss, which is your job.

Fun facts. Converting threat generated to base potency (before maim, zerk etc buffs). These are cumulative #s with all threat up to that point. I ignored str pot item use as I don't know how much you get from popping it and didn't Calc in str boost from it.

0 sec (1st strike) OP 900 threat
2.5 sec 1320. Heavy
5.0 sec 1800. Maim
7.5 sec 2973. Eye
10 sec 349. Heavy
12.5 sec 5565. Sunder
15 sec 10887. BB

Those enmity pot #s are equivalent to your pot outside tank stance with no buffs. So 1000 is the same threat you would generate from doing 10 un-combod maim (100 pot gcd with no enmity mods). So whatever damage you do in your gear for 100 pot multiply out by the pots listed here and that's how much damage a dps would need to do to rip hate by that point in your opener.

If you make it to sunder you survive. Also note you usually have roughly 1 gcd lead on your dps cuz you pull 1st. So really your 5th gcd move 3491 pot means a dps has to do somewhere around 3k pot themselves to have a chance at pulling hate for 1 gcd before sunder hits and cements it (BB nail in the hate coffin).

I say around 3 cuz tank pot doesn't equal dps pot but it's still 3400+ tank pot and only 4 gcds to match it. That's a heavy thrust and chaos combo from drg. CT is only 1k pot including the ENTIRE 30 sec dot. B4b and ht bring that to around 1600ish. Half what's needed to rip hate and they won't use dfd and junk until after disembodied is on. Ramp up time. No dps does 3k in 4 gcds unless they are already ramped up on another target. It's impossible.

Now if you are pulling an add mid fight (bennu pop for example) where dps can be primed and ready to unleash their optimal pre primed already ramped hp silliness then yeah this wont cut it, but you can be ramped up too and use a better set of skills anyway.

Kinda side tracking of topic, but since we mentioned a bit of BIS, may I know what's the BIS for non crafted gear of a STR WAR?

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

But if you're on the verge of ripping off a tank, while it is the tank's fault if they are appropriately geared, you still shouldn't rip hate because you surviving and contributing DPS is more beneficial to the party than you dying and screaming "L2TANK OMFG" when the DPS check isn't met and everyone wipes. A good DPS realizes they're going to steal aggro and doesn't, a bad DPS keeps hitting the thing until said DPS gets murdered. This is universal. It's less apparent in this game since it rarely happens, especially at this point, but it's still a situation where You Not Dying > You Dying in terms of damaging the boss, which is your job.

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Well said Spooky (and SirTaint).

Unless you're trying to go for some World Record / Bragging Rights on how high your DPS #'s can go, any good party works together to overcome each raid for the betterment of the group. Of course a DPS can pop Potions, blow their CDs and smack that Boss (or New Add) right when it spawns and rip hate off a Tank before they even got a chance to establish hate.

"Congrats" on wiping the party for the sake of inflating DPS numbers.

As Spooky and SirTaint are talking about, it's about that synergy with the group, not about face-rolling a DPS rotation immediately as a fight begins (or an Add spawns) with nothing else in mind. The Enmity Meter was added for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Kiara

Entirely missing the point post

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This argument has nothing to do about Good or bad DPS at all. It actually has to do with excellent players. A good player will not make any mistakes while an excellent player makes up others mistakes. That is what Spooky was saying, if the tank is really bad at holding hate (Which is easy in this game), then an excellent player would stop attacking or slow down to keep from pulling hate but this doesn't make them a good DPS. The definition of a good DPS is someone that deals good damage and good DPS will almost always rip hate off of a bad tank. The argument presented here is that you don't want to die so you have to lower your DPS so you don't pull threat off of the tank. But this just makes an excellent player, not an excellent DPS.

There is no excuse for not being able to hold hate in this game other than being bad. Simple as that, hate is stupidly easy and always has been. SE just makes it easier to keep with every patch.

At the end of the day if a DPS rips hate off of the tank (At least in this game) then the DPS is not the one to blame but the tank is at fault. Could the DPS have adjusted his play to not get hate? Yes. But is he in the wrong for doing his job properly? No. The ideal that DPS control hate in this game is stupid and created by bad tanks who can't hold hate.

The second a WAR lands BB hate is established for good.

The question is do you want to land it as your 6th hit or your 3rd?

The 6th is ideal but the 3rd is safer. After BB nobody is pulling hate.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

snip

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My job as dps is to stay alive so that I can keep dpsing. Hate is everyone's job not just the tank's, the word you're looking for is competent dps. The point of a raid or dungeon is to complete the content in the best of your ability no ? Then it is everyone's job to maximize the effectiveness to reach the goal. Tanks can only hold hate for so much damage until their aggro starts to falter.

The common misinformation is that hate is the primarily the tank's job is astounding. For heaven's sake Bard, Blm and Drg, even have abilities that reduce aggro generation, if that doesn't tell you that aggro control isn't just the tank's job, I don't know what will.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

But this just makes an excellent player, not an excellent DPS.

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You're simply arguing semantics now. When we say someone is a "good DPS", we are referring to the person playing the character. A more exact way to say it would be "good DPS player". Don't misunderstand, I don't think anyone is arguing that it's never a tank's fault for losing hate. It absolutely is. A tank that loses hate is either bad, under geared, or both. A good DPS player deals a lot of damage. A great DPS player deals enough damage to just barely not pull hate regardless of the how good the tank is.

This idea that it must be either the tank or the DPS at fault for the tank losing hate to the DPS is ridiculous. Both players are clearly at fault.

Every player in the party has the responsibility to: ensure that the tank keeps hate, kill the target as fast as possible, prevent themselves and others from dying, deal with any fight-specific mechanics that arise. Yes, certain roles focus more on one of those than others, for example the tank has much more control over keeping hate than anyone else. The DPS have more control over how fast the target dies than anyone else. That doesn't mean the DPS don't have a responsibility to avoid death if they can. Avoiding pulling hate off the tank is an extension of this.

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Originally Posted by Cenebi

This idea that it must be either the tank or the DPS at fault for the tank losing hate to the DPS is ridiculous. Both players are clearly at fault.
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That simply isn't true in this game at all. As I mentioned before, that ideal holds up extremely well in other games but not this one. Enmity isn't even an issue unless you can only hit one key every few moments. Unless there is a huge gear discrepancy (Like 30-40 ilvls) then a tank losing hate on a mob is his fault and his fault alone. The only time that this doesn't apply is dropped monsters such as adds ect. I can agree with you that there are times where a DPS can't go all out. If an add drops the BLM can't pop an Fire III the moment it spawns. But examples like that are very few and select.


Quelling Strikes is given to the two "Bursty" classes in the game and should be used by them but beyond that DPS should not have to worry about hate management. DPS should not have to put their weapons away or let the tank start off the fight to get a threat lead.

I have turn Echo off in SCoB because tanks couldn't keep hate off of my Ninja and I have put my weapons up. I'm not saying that in the instances that you are with a bad tank that you should just tank the mob, you should put your weapons up or you should try to not pull aggro. What I am saying is that the DPS isn't to blame for pulling hate and that principle only exists because tanking is easy in this game.

Any other game like WoW or FFXI where Enmity was actually pretty difficult to manage early on and DPS just couldn't pop all their buffs and shoot something without pulling threat and if FFXIV was like those games then I would agree that all parties are responsible for aggro management.

Bard and Smn aren't bursts classes yet both have access to aggro reduction gain abilities.

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Originally Posted by Noira

Bard and Smn aren't bursts classes yet both have access to aggro reduction gain abilities.

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Wat....BRD has the best burst in the game. Raging+B4B+IB+Barrage+Hawkeye+ a couple BL procs = extreme hate, BRD also has 4 OGCD abilities to save for burst.

BRD is a tanks biggest competition during a pull, a good NIN or a lucky BLM can also be a pain.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

BRD is a tanks biggest competition during a pull, a good NIN or a lucky BLM can also be a pain.

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Ninja has to start with DE or AE and even then there is no excuse for a Ninja snapping hate in the first few moments of the fight. You have to seriously misplay as PLD or WAR to lose hate or be extremely undergeared.

BRD is by far the only job that absolutely SHOULD pop quelling Strikes. BLM should not, even if they get lucky on their first fire any tank should be far enough into their combo that it won't make a difference. The only thing I could think of happening is if a BLM Crits a Fire III Proc and TIII Proc after his first fire but the chances of that happening are nil.

SMN is a great example of why Quelling strikes means very little. Again, enmity is extremely easy in this game and there are very few and seldom scenarios where a dps should aid in enmity control.