Re: 2.5 Dungeon Difficulty

I am pleasantly surprised by the ramp in difficulty for the new 2.5 dungeons. My friends and the other random DF members I've talked with all seem to share the same sentiment: challenge is good!

This sudden shift in difficulty reminds me of playing Brayflox NM for the first time. I'm actually finding myself challenged yet again.

I wanted to congratulate the devs on developing good content for this patch. It is my hope that they continue down this road for future content.

Some things that I noticed were lacking in the EX Dungeons were something akin to the mini bosses in Qarn HM. I'm hoping they take all those good ideas and run with it in the expansion, seeing as they most likely already have the rest of 2.5 planned out.

Tl;dr; thank you devs for the truly extreme dungeons with this patch. Keep it coming :)

I killed last boss in Keeper of the Lake as a WAR from 30% till dead since my party wiped. Not really that hard. What was really irritating and why I'm probably not going to run these at all if I can help it is the huge amount of forced stops in them, again. 3 mobs and a gate? Then another 3 and a gate? Really?

I enjoyed the challenge of speedruns in ye olde WP. That was fun. These now? They suck since they are so completely controlled that the player is unable to do anything other than exactly what the devs want them to do.

I wouldn't say they made anything more difficult just added lots of fun little mechanics that make people work together. People were complaining that the last sets of HM's were too easy so i guess they decided to make things more complex. It'll hurt the speed runners feelings because they want to faceroll and farm everything in 15 minutes but it at least makes content more interesting. This bar raise in the amount of intelligence needed for people to run things is nice though it's starting to show up some people who were rage quitting dungeons because they couldn't figure things out. Communication and team work should be encouraged in an MMO instead of the "me me me" attitude. Still in WoD you get people whining over who gets to be eaten and who does chains >.>. I'll be glad when everyone is bored of that boss and we don't get people crying because they are not in the nom nom team or just doing what they want and getting eaten anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

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there is no challenge in a speed run. It's just a matter of gear check. Enough HP/heals/dps ? you pass. Not enough ? You die like shit and lost more time than it would have taken to do the thing normally. gear check =/= challenge.

Though I fail to see why any of the new dungeons represent a challenge tbh :/ I one-shotted all the bosses day one and nothing seemed that difficult. Maybe with randoms one or 2 bosses may be hard if noone knows a thing (no instant communication) but that's it.

Also, forced stops ? take all to the gate and kill them quick. the keeper is done under 20 mins.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

I killed last boss in Keeper of the Lake as a WAR from 30% till dead since my party wiped. Not really that hard.

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This kinda sounds like "Look at me. I'm elite." It may not be the intent, but it just comes off that way.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

These now? They suck since they are so completely controlled that the player is unable to do anything other than exactly what the devs want them to do.

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So these new dungeons suck because you may actually have to do things as intended instead of just facerolling through it? Damn, i'm sure that those devs who spend all that time trying to design a fun, engaging dungeon are such horrible incompetent people. Next time, let's just request a giant room with constantly spawning enemies and call it a dungeon, just for players like you.

/sarcasm off

EDIT: After looking at your profile, I think I can understand why we have a difference of opinion. I've been here since beta 3 and still haven't maxed everything. I personally prefer to take things slow and enjoy the game and everything it has to offer. I see you have everything maxed tons of specials mounts/minions, fully melded artisan gear, etc, and has been in game for only 6 months. Although I don't know you, that info, coupled with you comments on speedrunning, paint an image of someone who feels compelled to burn through everything. Different playstyles completely.

I think the new dungeons are easier than the 2.4 dungeons the trash mobs don't seem to hit as the 2.4 dungeon ones especially when compared to Qarn. The only part that is harder is that everything has way too much hp.

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Originally Posted by Kumabear76

So these new dungeons suck because you may actually have to do things as intended instead of just facerolling through it? Damn, i'm sure that those devs who spend all that time trying to design a fun, engaging dungeon are such horrible incompetent people. Next time, let's just request a giant room with constantly spawning enemies and call it a dungeon, just for players like you.

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They'll feel right at home in the last leg of AK HM.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

I killed last boss in Keeper of the Lake as a WAR from 30% till dead since my party wiped. Not really that hard. What was really irritating and why I'm probably not going to run these at all if I can help it is the huge amount of forced stops in them, again. 3 mobs and a gate? Then another 3 and a gate? Really?

I enjoyed the challenge of speedruns in ye olde WP. That was fun. These now? They suck since they are so completely controlled that the player is unable to do anything other than exactly what the devs want them to do.

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As someone that detests speed runs I like this, I mean sure I will change my mind maybe when I am running these dungeons nonstop, but have you tried tanking with 10 mobs shooting AoEs at your face? If not then you have no idea how stressful and irritating it is to try avoiding it all. I am sure the melee don't appreciate speeds runs either.

I would say 2.5's dungeons are easier than 2.4's. Some of the 2.4 bosses, like Sabotender Emperatriz, were hard wipes if everyone wasn't dialed in on mechanics. Some dudes, like Captain Madison, gave undergeared (or just unfocused) parties some trouble.

I think 2.5's bosses would also cause issues if 2 or more members didn't know the mechanics, but I had a pretty easy time going through them figuring out the mechanics from scratch. I think the moves and how you're supposed to handle them are telegraphed much more obviously this time around.

That said, I like every one of 2.5's dungeons more than 2.4's. Lots of interesting trash pulls and change-ups to boss fights. Nothing feels familiar or similar to past fights! The atmosphere, music, and visuals are a big improvement, as well.

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Originally Posted by RayneBoemir

As someone that detests speed runs I like this, I mean sure I will change my mind maybe when I am running these dungeons nonstop, but have you tried tanking with 10 mobs shooting AoEs at your face? If not then you have no idea how stressful and irritating it is to try avoiding it all. I am sure the melee don't appreciate speeds runs either.

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Yea I have, and it's fun. Players should be able to play at their own pace - not a pace dictated by forced gates to be the slowest possible one.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Yea I have, and it's fun. Players should be able to play at their own pace - not a pace dictated by forced gates to be the slowest possible one.

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except it's not. For the keeper, you can do 1, 2, 1, all, 2 then 2 packs. Not the "full pull" you may want but still fast enough

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

except it's not. For the keeper, you can do 1, 2, 1, all, 2 then 2 packs. Not the "full pull" you may want but still fast enough

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I did Keeper once. It had a ridiculous number of forced stops.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

I did Keeper once. It had a ridiculous number of forced stops.

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I did keeper a fair amount of times. I never felt stopped as I have a keen knowledge of what I know I can handle when healers/dps are bad, and the pace the dungeon is having is just perfect for me.

To each their own, I suppose you love doing your weekly T10 trash the way they're intended (ie, killing them without wiping or sacrificing anyone or sneaking behind). I don't. But I love the new dungeons. And you don't. Everyone has their favored content.

I can't agree with you. The dungeons don't bring anymore difficulty than ignorance, which is present with each new dungeon pack.

Regarding the discussion about speedrunning and limitations etc. etc., I would like to present an idea:

Unlockable gates with which the player could interact with and then move on to the next zone (instead of them magically opening after the monsters die), the catch and the mechanics on this would be:

- Some gates would take longer to open (tank would take damage, healer would run out of mp, better option would be to either kill the mobs or deal with the consequences of trying to speedrun)

- Some monsters would get increased aggro over time on players trying to open gates

- Some gates would require 2 or more players to open a lever or something like that

- Some gates would be trapped and explode in a big area AoE that would deal a fair ammount of damage/stun/paralysis/or even sleep.

Wanna speed run? Get gud or get back home.
Wanna play at your own pace? Well... Go ahead(?) it's just slower

Or we could just leave it as it is now. The dungeons are bland. Speedruns make them bearable.

I disagree, still too easy.

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Originally Posted by Skeith-Adeline

I can't agree with you. The dungeons don't bring anymore difficulty than ignorance, which is present with each new dungeon pack.

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And once everyone knows how everything works, it's all the same tank and spank deal we've been getting since 2.2 (though we might have to change targets every so often).

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

I did Keeper once. It had a ridiculous number of forced stops.

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http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/54...ffc0_50x50.jpg
Forced stops! omg!



Boo hoo.

That's how the dungeons are designed. SE obviously doesn't want people just blasting through everything alla Brayflox HM. You don't like them? Fine. But don't put more weight in your opinion then needed. Players should run the dungeons as they are designed otherwise the pace becomes "Speedrun or kick".

You don't need to run them again, and you've already stated you aren't going to. The dungeons are designed the way they are, deal with it (not that you need to anymore since you're already done them) and stop complaining about them.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Players should be able to play at their own pace

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I totally agree with this.

Challenging with a full DF group but easy with people who know what they're doing.

Recently saw a trend of ~i90 dps alts joining these, obviously prolonging the run due to their lack of experience with the class they're currently on, in hopes for some i100 gear.

Speedrunning is fine. I agree that there should be no pure walls stopping you from pulling everything on content you have to run many, many times.

I think speedrunning being challenging is laughable, though. Maybe if this content wasn't tuned for casual players, but it's literally just pull all the things -> Hallowed -> AOE rotation. That's as easy as taking it slowly, it's just different. Different doesn't necessarily mean more challenging, especially in this case.

I did enjoy the 2.5 dungeons. It seems the devs have resorted to giving us AOE hell instead of actually making challenging mechanics, which is kind of disappointing. That said, they were still a lot of fun, especially AK HM.