That's... actually a kind of big translation difference. [2.5 spoilers]

I've been only vaguely aware of people chattering about the differences in Midgardsormr's speech, but today I came across a thread to see it (well, read it) first hand.

I saw Fernehalwe's post too, of course.

Sure, sure, say the dragons and their language has quite a tendency to be vague thanks to their history and culture, and yet...

I can't help but notice the Japanese version nonetheless has quite a bit more content. Namely two things:

1. It's unambiguous that Midgardsormr is trying to help you, in his own way.
2. The dragons aren't beings of pure, unforgiving vengeance; they're going to attack Ishgard because of what they're doing/will do, not just what they did in the past.

It's not just a verbosity thing. To me #2 is a huge difference of characterization, the sort of thing that would determine who's side I was on (if we had a choice anyway).

This isn't the first time this has happened either. Anyone remember how much more informative the Hunts hints were in the Japanese version?

So... what gives?

like many games, the literal translation from Japanese to English (languages in general though) is not always accurate or as forthcoming. Perhaps it may seem more straightforward with someone translating the japanese version for us, but it was just as subtle in theirs. Personally, I always thought Ishgard was a pretty messed up place. Both sides so brutally willing to shed blood. A never ending cycle.
But other than the translation issues, maybe the creators though Western audiences would like it this way.

It was an authorial decision to make Midgardsormr's relationship with the player more ambiguous in the English version, perhaps to set up a more dramatic reveal later. The EN team is no less a part of the lore/story team than any other language, including Japanese. The story in this game is a collaborative effort and the EN team decided to characterize EN Midgardsormr in this way, making him more mysterious, terse, and ambiguously adversarial than his JP characterization. You are free to dislike that authorial choice, but it's no less "correct" than the Japanese version because all people involved are full-fledged "authors" of the work.

I have yet to start on the 2.5 scenario so I can't really say anything on this, but do you happen to have (links too) the text in both languages?


PS: woudn't the Localization subforum have been a better place for this thread?

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

I have yet to start on the 2.5 scenario so I can't really say anything on this, but do you happen to have (links too) the text in both languages?


PS: woudn't the Localization subforum have been a better place for this thread?

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The link to text of both versions is in my original post. And I did consider that forum, but... in a way, this isn't a localization issue. Not precisely.

I don't have a problem with them deciding to stylize/flavor the translation. Like I said, I did read Fernehalwes's post.

It's really not that different at all.

It was pretty obvious Midgardsormr was helping us, even if he wasn't being particularly pleasant about it.

And, I mean, if you need to be told that the dragons are going to attack Ishgard because of what Ishgard is presently doing... you really haven't been paying much attention to what Ishgard is presently doing. Ishgard wants to exterminate every dragon everywhere ever, and they haven't exactly been subtle about this goal.

I've been paying attention just fine, thanks. You seem to be missing the point: The characters' motivation.

On the other hand, as axemtitanium said... they can basically do whatever they want, I guess. This is one case where I wish I'd been on the JP client instead of the EN one, however.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I've been paying attention just fine, thanks. You seem to be missing the point: The characters' motivation.

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So explain how the motivation has changed, exactly?

EN: "They killed us, we kill them."

JP: "They're killing us, we're gonna kill them."

Sure, you could try and argue that the former is simply someone being blindly vengeful and only lashing out due to injuries past, but that completely ignores the actual context of the quote where we know those past offenses are presently ongoing.

That's oversimplifying it a bit, at least in my mind... but it seems I'm the only one that thinks so. I'll just let the topic rest, then. Farewell until next time/patch/etc.

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Originally Posted by axemtitanium

It was an authorial decision to make Midgardsormr's relationship with the player more ambiguous in the English version, perhaps to set up a more dramatic reveal later. The EN team is no less a part of the lore/story team than any other language, including Japanese. The story in this game is a collaborative effort and the EN team decided to characterize EN Midgardsormr in this way, making him more mysterious, terse, and ambiguously adversarial than his JP characterization. You are free to dislike that authorial choice, but it's no less "correct" than the Japanese version because all people involved are full-fledged "authors" of the work.

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Pretty much this. The EN and JP lore master work side by side so it's not the simple read, translate, paste. Its a direct decision to change the wording to make it more appealing to the audience and the general tone of the context is true in both versions. The motivation the same in both version, to test the player in the upcoming conflict.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

The link to text of both versions is in my original post. And I did consider that forum, but... in a way, this isn't a localization issue. Not precisely.

I don't have a problem with them deciding to stylize/flavor the translation. Like I said, I did read Fernehalwes's post.

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Ah, sorry I missed the links.
It sounds exactly like a localization issue to me, though. It is about the difference between the text in both versions, that sounds a lot more to localization than lore to me. Issue doesn't exactly have to mean problem, mind you. But now that the thread is posted here it doesn't really matter.

But the way I see it, it is still unambiguous that Middy want to help you in the English version, just with a lot less words. In the English version he outright states that he will not harm you, while the Japanese only states that he promised Hydaelyn not to kill you... if anything the English one is a bit more precise here (not killing someone doesn't mean you don't harm them). Neither version outright states that he will help you, while both versions state that he will "watch over you".

The second point you state is valid, the English version does not state that Ishgard is still doing something right now. (Though perhaps you could argue the war is an ongoing thing. It started way back when and Ishgard is still fighting, and over time they may have forgotten the origins of the war). This really is a difference. Still, with the little info we have I find it hard to say what it would do to my character's reaction to this. I personally started doubting Ishgard ever since I met Iceheart and heard her speak Hydaelyns words. To me this meeting with Middy, whichever language you pick, only confirms that doubt.

There is no need to withdraw your opinion. You felt there was a large difference between the two languages, and there is nothing wrong with feeling that way. Everyone has different preferences for translation.

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

But the way I see it, it is still unambiguous that Middy want to help you in the English version, just with a lot less words. In the English version he outright states that he will not harm you, while the Japanese only states that he promised Hydaelyn not to kill you... if anything the English one is a bit more precise here (not killing someone doesn't mean you don't harm them). Neither version outright states that he will help you, while both versions state that he will "watch over you".

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I am puzzled how several people in this thread thinks the big dragon wants to help us. I certainly hope there is an explanation coming but removing the blessing of light, which apparently had been keeping the Ascians away, and letting them come after us and killing my favorite scion... that kind of "help" I could have done without. In my mind, not killing us is not equal to helping us...

the one thing that pisses me off the most is that in English version Middy doesn't mention that Ishgard is plotting something very dangerous, *AGAIN*. It's not the great migration first explained during DRG storyline that triggered the enmity; it was something that Ishgardians once did and will do again, that the dravanians want to stop.

This completely robs us of any opportunity to gain an insight into Ishgardian situation viewed from dravanian side of the things.

'oh but the dragons are so old and so ambiguous'? You devs denied people access to critical information just because you wanted to play around, waiting for a 'big reveal' that won't make any kind of sense and will feel completely out of place.

Fix this devs or you will have more trouble on your hands in the future than you expect.

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Originally Posted by Thistledown

the one thing that pisses me off the most is that in English version Middy doesn't mention that Ishgard is plotting something very dangerous, *AGAIN*
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I've reread the translation several times, and I don't see any mention of Ishgard plotting something again. Which line is that?

I prefer English Midgardsormr, do you really think he's the sort to play all his cards at once? He's not likely to tell you everything just because Hydaelyn chose you, he'd want you to prove your worth first.

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Originally Posted by Grayve

I've reread the translation several times, and I don't see any mention of Ishgard plotting something again. Which line is that?

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これは報復よ。イシュガルドの民は、己が罪から目を背けた。その罪こそが、尽きることない戦の火種。
そればかりか、あの者どもは今、再び罪を犯そうとしておる。故に、我が一族は咆哮をとどろかせたのであろう。

This is retribution! The people of Ishgard are blind to their sins. Their sins demand battle without end.
And yet more, they want to sin again. This is why my kin roars.

I personally think way too much significance is being given to that particular line by people with a bone to pick with the translators. It could very easily just be referring to how Ishgard continues to perpetuate its war against the Dravanians and their sympathizers.

You're also completely ignoring that your own translation even confirms that the dragons fight Ishgard for sins committed in the past just as much as the ones to be committed in the future.

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Originally Posted by Alice_89th

But the way I see it, it is still unambiguous that Middy want to help you in the English version, just with a lot less words. In the English version he outright states that he will not harm you, while the Japanese only states that he promised Hydaelyn not to kill you... if anything the English one is a bit more precise here (not killing someone doesn't mean you don't harm them). Neither version outright states that he will help you, while both versions state that he will "watch over you".

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Midgardsormr was about to kill us, but he couldn't because we were not 'gifted' but 'chosen'. Most likely similarly to what happens in World of Darkness at the end, with Cloud of Darkness unable to kill a certain someone, especially considering that there was a Covenant between CoD and Xande, and there's another between Midgardsormr and Hydaelyn, from his dialogue.

Right after telling he's about to kill you, and seeing his spell fail :

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Hmph. Trichery is thy shield. This frail, ignoble creature is not gifted, but chosen...
Hearken to me, Hydaelyn! I remember...and I consent.
Fear not, mortal... O shall not harm thee...

*laser of doom + cutscene with the 6 crystals fading happens*

Heh heh heh. Mayhap thou thinkest me an oathbreaker?
Thou art mistaken. If thou comest to harm, it shall be by another's hand, not mine.
I did but strip thee of thy mistress's feeble blessing.
Thou didst profit much by Her grace, but no more.

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To me, it clearly means "I can't actually kill you, but I can strip you from your protection so someone will eventually do the job for me".

I guess people are so used to the direction of how some FF stories go that they can already see how things are going to play out with Midgardsormr. I just tend to take the story at face value, and as of right now I haven't seen anything Middy do be to my benefit. I mean yeah, an Ascian died at the end of it all, but did it have to come at the expense that it did?

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Originally Posted by Thistledown

the one thing that pisses me off the most is that in English version Middy doesn't mention that Ishgard is plotting something very dangerous, *AGAIN*. It's not the great migration first explained during DRG storyline that triggered the enmity; it was something that Ishgardians once did and will do again, that the dravanians want to stop.

This completely robs us of any opportunity to gain an insight into Ishgardian situation viewed from dravanian side of the things.

'oh but the dragons are so old and so ambiguous'? You devs denied people access to critical information just because you wanted to play around, waiting for a 'big reveal' that won't make any kind of sense and will feel completely out of place.

Fix this devs or you will have more trouble on your hands in the future than you expect.

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I don't see any reference to Ishgard plotting just a vague statement of them "sinning"

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Originally Posted by Thistledown

これは報復よ。イシュガルドの民は、己が罪から目を背けた。その罪こそが、尽きることない戦の火種。
そればかりか、あの者どもは今、再び罪を犯そうとしておる。故に、我が一族は咆哮をとどろかせたのであろう。

This is retribution! The people of Ishgard are blind to their sins. Their sins demand battle without end.
And yet more, they want to sin again. This is why my kin roars.

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Ehhhh, I have some major issues with that translation of those lines. First of all, the 己が罪から目を背けた ("The people of Ishgard are blind to their sins") line is past tense, indicating that the sins Midgardsormr is speaking of are things that occurred in the past. "Their sins demand battle without end" is not an accurate translation of the next line at all. A better translation would be "Those sins are the coals which have lit the ceaseless fighting." In other words, the fighting that's happening now is still over stuff that took place a long time ago.

The line after that says nothing about Ishgard plotting or "wanting" to do anything, just that they are trying to sin again. There's nothing in the Japanese to indicate that they are doing so purposefully or with knowledge of what they are doing.

I would take that translation with a grain of salt, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Alenore

To me, it clearly means "I can't actually kill you, but I can strip you from your protection so someone will eventually do the job for me".

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"Hearken to me, Hydaelyn! I remember...and I consent."


The key word here is "consent." Basically, Midgardsormr got permission from Hydaelyn to remove the shield she put up. Why? If Hydaelyn granted Midgardsormr that power and authority then she must have had a reason. Hydaelyn knew her power was waning. She gave her chosen one a way to stave off the Ascian threat because YOU (the adventurer) were new and inexperienced, having only recently been awoken. Hydaelyn herself knew that you would be fated to cross paths with Midgardsormr. She knew that, by that time, you should learn to rely on your own power rather than the power she lent to you. However, although we don't know her exact fate as of yet, it's obvious she knew she would not be able to remove it herself (perhaps many eons ago she foresaw her own demise and entrusted Midgardsormr to fulfill her final wishes). This is part of the reason why Midgardsormr won't kill you. Once you beat his spirit, he realizes that YOU were the one Hydaelyn prophesied about all those years ago. He knew it was time to fulfill the promise/charge he was given and strip the Blessing of Light from you. He elects to watch over you (in the small form) to guide your path. He blatantly tells you his children heard the call and will attack, which he is admitting he cannot stop (and probably wouldn't if he could, he is still a dragon and still sides with his own kind). He is essentially telling you, "You can stop it if you can prove yourself by standing on your own two feet for once instead of relying on borrowed power." He WANTS you to succeed in stopping the endless bloodshed between his and your own people and instead unite them, something that had never been done before. He just knows you will need help doing it.

Hydaelyn taught you how to ride a bike with training wheels (gets you from point A to B, but requires little skill). Midgardsormr is there to rip them off and force you to learn without their help (gets you from point A to B, but makes you work harder for it).

The way Midgurdsormer kept going on about "Keeping his covenant" I think we were SUPOSE to visit him earlier than we did. After all it all most seemed like (From what I heared in the EN Dub) he was suppose to help us achieve out next level of power. We still have the Echo, the fact we understood Nebralius not long after was proof of that, but it seems like he took the power we got from the 6 elemental crystals (From what I remember of the Sylph Elder's dialog in the MS I think they're connected to the primals in come way) and gave us something else in return. Heck the way he made a "Mini-Me" avatar to follow us around in almost seems like he'll be fighting along side US in 3.0. (There is also the subtle hints from the 3.0 Dragon Mount Teaser. "We can't reveal the name yet but he will serve an important roll in the plot.")

So I have no doubt he's not our enemy. But whether or not he's our friend and not just a begrudging allie remains to be seen.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

The way Midgurdsormer kept going on about "Keeping his covenant" I think we were SUPOSE to visit him earlier than we did.

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I don't think this covenant is directly related to us, but is a pact between Hydealyn and Midgardsormr to protect the world against the darkness or something like that, and since we are Hydealyn's chosen one he wants to help us even if he has doubts on our skills, because he trusts her.

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Originally Posted by lololink

I don't think this covenant is directly related to us, but is a pact between Hydealyn and Midgardsormr to protect the world against the darkness or something like that, and since we are Hydealyn's chosen one he wants to help us even if he has doubts on our skills, because he trusts her.

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That's a valid point. We as the Player Character might not have played any significance in the Covenant it's self being as he's a combination of Surprised, Disgusted, and Amused that he can't out right kill us due to being Hydealyn's "Chosen One".

So that seems to add more to the idea that he's begrudgingly helping us rather than actually caring about our well being him self. After all think of what the Allagain did to the Myeracidians and imagine the fact that Ishgaud and Garlemauld would be more than happy to do the same to the Dravanians. It seems to Dragon-Kin and the Humanoid races haven't exactly been known to have good relations with each other.

I can't understand why this is such a huge debate, its obvious in both translations that Midgardsormr is going to help us, or at the very least see for himself if we are even /worth/ helping, why should he spoon feed us any information he hasn't already?

Midgardsormr is ancient, godlike, and has every reason in the world to hate humanity, we are 20-something adventures who in his eyes have been handed undeserved power we barely understand..

He doesn't need to hold up a sign that says I'm on your side for that to be obvious, him deciding to let you /live/ should make that self explanatory