Issues with tanking

Hi folks, I started FFXIV again after quitting two weeks after launch. I came back 2 days after the launch of 1.18 and am having a lot more fun this time around, even got a few real life friends to join me. Anyways, my issue seems to be that I am having trouble tanking, at first I had issues right at the start with the healer pulling aggro immediately but after telling him to use Stoneskin really helped a lot.

Now my issue seems to be that my PLG friend and if they are any archers in the party, I simply cannot hold aggro off of them. If we were in a SP grinding party I would let it go because they tend to die quickly enough as it is, but when we go for NMs I find myself having to tell my PLG friend to hold back at certain times because it seems like even a light strike from him pulls aggro off of me. I was wondering if anyone else could give me some tips on holding aggro better?

I mainly pull via Scourge and follow up with Provoke, Light Stab-->Heavy Slash--->Heavy Stab-->Ferocity--->Onion Cut--->Raging Strike--->Shield Bash and they usually works half the time for my opening but 10-15 seconds later usually a PLG/ARC would pull aggro and I would need to Provoke and use Sentinel/Featherfoot and etc.

Thanks in advance

im also wondering what abilites generate the most threat.

Use Disorient, make sure you have Intimidation on, Warmonger is nice for trouble, use Second Wind II with Seasoned Veteran to heal yourself instead of having the mages do it, you could use taunt as well, make sure you are using phalanx every time you block, and consider switching off of shield bash since 30 seconds is too long to wait to dump 500tp. Axemanship and Skull Sunder II is nice for normal monsters since you are using so many MRD abilities anyway. You can also use accomplice to keep a troublesome DD's hate lower.

Thank you I swapped out Shield Bash for Disorient and added Skill Sunder into my rotation and its helping a bit. I am working on leveling my MRD for Skull Sunder II and Defender II (while also getting Warmonger and Intimidation). My PLG is still rather low so Second Wind II and Seasoned Veteran will take a bit to acquire.

i just cant get any threat anywhere. i taunt, phalanx, throw an onion cut, heavy thrust, and ive lost aggro and have no way to get it back. threat in this game seems really imbalanced and dumb.

Its not imbalanced, you just need to know that dmg and healing both give a 1:1 hate ratio.

So if your onion cut only does 200dmg(200hate) and a lancer or rng follows up with a 400dmg(400hate) move.. well you're fucked. Easiest way to catch up on hate since glad's cant out dmg most DoW is throw a cure/second wind to add more hate to yourself.

Also Accomplice(rk30 Pug) is amazing in terms of hate, just accomplice a healer that just drop'd a 500+ heal on you and you'll be just fine.

Check out the following links for enmity information:

• Basic Enmity Tests thread on BG
• Kaeko's live journal (linked from BG thread)

not sure why they got provoke giving such a low number. I'm kinda confused on how they even did the testing to come up with those values. Cuz even accomplice was greater then 20% for me.

Maybe my way of testing is wrong though. Posted it on my blog awhile back. Using cure values to get closer to the value of hate.
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...cicuid=1384450


edit: That post also says
"2. Whatever is used to claim a monster generates 0 enmity. This one's important."

Which is not the case anymore. It used to be pre 1.18

gladiator skills should give a TON more threat than any other damage skill, and slightly more than healing, thats just the way tanking works in games.

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Originally Posted by wind

not sure why they got provoke giving such a low number. I'm kinda confused on how they even did the testing to come up with those values. Cuz even accomplice was greater then 20% for me.

Maybe my way of testing is wrong though. Posted it on my blog awhile back. Using cure values to get closer to the value of hate.
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...cicuid=1384450


edit: That post also says
"2. Whatever is used to claim a monster generates 0 enmity. This one's important."

Which is not the case anymore. It used to be pre 1.18

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I read your post and the reason your numbers are different from Kaeko's ones is:
you say—correct me if I'm wrong—1 cured HP = 1 enmity point,
they say 1 cured HP = 0.75 enmity points.

I remade your Accomplice test and considering a 16% enmity transfer you still would keep hate, assuming you have Intimidation.

what i do is -
make sure to get the first hate use provoke or what ever then i aegis boon then phalanx > light stab > phalanx > heavy stab > phalanx buy that time your shield should drop so then > guard and repeat for the weapon skill i use bloodbath + onion cut, cure and keep second wind on cool down.

works for everything sept for archers.
hope that helps

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slipmac

what i do is -
make sure to get the first hate use provoke or what ever then i aegis boon then phalanx > light stab > phalanx > heavy stab > phalanx buy that time your shield should drop so then > guard and repeat for the weapon skill i use bloodbath + onion cut, cure and keep second wind on cool down.

hope that helps

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no it doesnt help. because my provoke causes less threat than one archer light shot. anyone denying the fact that gladaitor tps is way broken is just stupid. those classes never miss and can invest into accuracy and dex all day. gladiator skills give roughly just as much threat as other classes skills. so what seperates you from a lancer or a marauder that both wear plate? a shield, and thats about it.

my question is, what is a HIGHER TPS TP DUMP? NOT HOW TO USE GUARD AND PHALANX. thats completely obvious. i want to know what i have to use to dump tp on to actually hold aggro. red lotus? onion cut? howling vortex? WHICH CAUSES THE MOST TPS?

and how do i not miss? i miss every other attack with a weapon my level and to be frank its completely fucking annoying. that if i miss ONE phalanx on the pull, the other dps gets aggro and i have no way of getting it back.

this is like wow PRE BC tanking without hit / expertise on gear, and its horrible. back when you actually had to let the tank hit the boss for 15 seconds before you touched it because he would just miss attacks.

please dont take this as a flame post, as it is not. i have just asked the same question 3 times and have not gotten an answer, so im being more descriptive this time to elaborate on the problems i am experiencing with gladiator. i am rank 34 with flametongue and a lantern shield, with BIS gear and 4 +1 vit rings.

its just more of a rage post, because i cant hold aggro vs any ranger, and if my skills evade i lose aggro and its not possible to get it back again. i'm not bad, i used to maintank sunwell for my wow guild, i have 44 action points set and use every skill given to me, i also use about 15 macros.

Even if i could use skills, roughly 60% of my auto attacks miss or evade, and i am tp starved every single group im in. why am i missing so much? my 33 lancer could solo 44 efts without missing ONCE. and my gladiator is like blind in 1 eye and has a broken wrist.

Thanks for the responses, I recently picked up Cure II and am working on getting my MRD to 30 (or is it 36?) for Intimidation and Warmonger. Last night using Wardrum + Provoke + Disorient, I was able to hold off two mobs from my party just fine(hey I am trying something new and more might have been a problem since I was needing heals a lot as well). I had to tell the PLG to hold back a little because there was 2 mobs on us but in the end I only lost aggro for a second and a Provoke pulled it back to me.

As for the missing issue, try wearing some Accuracy + rings, I picked up 4 Silver rings for a total of 8 accuracy and am sitting at 50 DEX atm and I rarely miss anymore (for the time being).

Thanks for all the replies, its been very helpful!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sleepy

I read your post and the reason your numbers are different from Kaeko's ones is:
you say—correct me if I'm wrong—1 cured HP = 1 enmity point,
they say 1 cured HP = 0.75 enmity points.

I remade your Accomplice test and considering a 16% enmity transfer you still would keep hate, assuming you have Intimidation.

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Ya noticed that too after I posted. Wonder how they got .75 per healing. Gonna have to test that out when my testing buddy logs in.

If i took all my values and changed it to .75 the numbers are pretty close aside from the accomplice.

I think there is another link where Kaeko goes into detail about his various tests (it should be from that thread or in that thread). My understanding is that he started out with rank 1 DoL for 1 point stone throw vs. marmots and worked from there on various theories.

The early tests were like: stoneskin 2x rank 1 DoL, have one pull a marmot with stone throw. have the other hit it with stone throw until it moves (takes 2 stone throws, missed stone throws have no impact, ...).

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Originally Posted by Fixy

no it doesnt help. because my provoke causes less threat than one archer light shot. anyone denying the fact that gladaitor tps is way broken is just stupid. those classes never miss and can invest into accuracy and dex all day. gladiator skills give roughly just as much threat as other classes skills. so what seperates you from a lancer or a marauder that both wear plate? a shield, and thats about it.

my question is, what is a HIGHER TPS TP DUMP? NOT HOW TO USE GUARD AND PHALANX. thats completely obvious. i want to know what i have to use to dump tp on to actually hold aggro. red lotus? onion cut? howling vortex? WHICH CAUSES THE MOST TPS?

and how do i not miss? i miss every other attack with a weapon my level and to be frank its completely fucking annoying. that if i miss ONE phalanx on the pull, the other dps gets aggro and i have no way of getting it back.

this is like wow PRE BC tanking without hit / expertise on gear, and its horrible. back when you actually had to let the tank hit the boss for 15 seconds before you touched it because he would just miss attacks.

please dont take this as a flame post, as it is not. i have just asked the same question 3 times and have not gotten an answer, so im being more descriptive this time to elaborate on the problems i am experiencing with gladiator. i am rank 34 with flametongue and a lantern shield, with BIS gear and 4 +1 vit rings.

its just more of a rage post, because i cant hold aggro vs any ranger, and if my skills evade i lose aggro and its not possible to get it back again. i'm not bad, i used to maintank sunwell for my wow guild, i have 44 action points set and use every skill given to me, i also use about 15 macros.

Even if i could use skills, roughly 60% of my auto attacks miss or evade, and i am tp starved every single group im in. why am i missing so much? my 33 lancer could solo 44 efts without missing ONCE. and my gladiator is like blind in 1 eye and has a broken wrist.

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you quoted my post but deleted
"WORKS FOR EVERYTHING SEPT FOR ARCHERS."

If you cant hit then you need acc rings not vit rings. thats pretty cut and dry.
and if anyone says they can keep hate off a full blown archer same rank i would say stfu or post the video.

"Anyone denying the fact that gladaitor tps is way broken is just stupid."
i never said it wasnt i only posted what i do.

dont take your nerd rage out on me

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Originally Posted by slipmac

you quoted my post but deleted
"WORKS FOR EVERYTHING SEPT FOR ARCHERS."

If you cant hit then you need acc rings not vit rings. thats pretty cut and dry.
and if anyone says they can keep hate off a full blown archer same rank i would say stfu or post the video.

"Anyone denying the fact that gladaitor tps is way broken is just stupid."
i never said it wasnt i only posted what i do.

dont take your nerd rage out on me

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LOL. Tanking truly does take some work. Communication with party members is key. I'm a Rank 31 Glad, and it wasnt until I got the trait "Wardrum" did holding hate get marginally better. Wipe those thoughts from your mind regarding Rangers and enmity. When rangers get going it's extremely tough to pull the mob back from them. Simply start unleahing to finish the mob off or throw him a Sacrifice or Cure. For what it's worth, i lead the fight off with "Disorient", its fast and seems more effective than an initial "Provoke." I wade into the group tih a light stab to a "Wardrum", followed up by a few Phalanx's for more enmity. If a mage somehow manages to pull from this set up, I'll quickly throw out a "Taunt" which brings the mob back to you for a brief few moments. The mob should be dead by this time frame from your damage dealers. I dont have "Intimidate" as of yet, but i'm sure it'll greatly help with holding aggro. My only gripe so far is this innate enmity that all mages have in FFXIV. An example of what I mean is, my Glad finds a paper of the "Necrologos." Hmmm, ive found a page...what the hel?! Something unexpectedly appears and bolts past me for my buddy the mage peaking from behind that rock! It's almost as if Mages walk around with a base 200 point radius effect enimity cloud at all times. Quite frustrating..

Mobs that pop up during leves always go after the leve starter. Don't have your mages start leves if you don't want that happening.

use obsess I or II, Provoke I or II, Taunt I or II, war drum, warmonger, and mix in attacks there is nothing wrong with tanking, myself and many others can tank any HNM, NM or Grind mob and never loose hate. get accomplish also and when a dd or mage hits yellow/red hate then use it and steal their hate. sentinel and rampart help to reduce the damage you take, defender is amazing to help with that too. i can use accomplish on a mage with red hate and pull them down to green hate and increasing my hate.

if your a GLA or MRD loosing hate its not the system is the user.

you need to balance the spamming of hate control moves - provoke, taunt, war drum, warmonger, accomplish

attacking moves

and defensive moves

self healing to some extent helps a TON also. get Cure and Sacrifice II or III and second wind I or II



if your archer is pulling hate then they are doing it wrong lol,

archer -> raging strike II + ferocity II + trifuricate + collusion = your tank now has all the hate that would generate if you do it from behind the tank like a good DD would.


Tanks get Intimidation + axemenship

DD's/Mages get Out of Sight + Bowmenship

mix a party with all that and your golden.

Sighs... Guess ill put in my words.

Heres how I usually start. Well, for this example ill use Ogre.

I hit up Feather Foot II, Invigorate II, *yes I have Pikemanship up* run up to him. I use Warmonger first. Why? It causes a Enmity increase buff. I then Taunt II run him in place, by now I probably taken some damage so I use Second Wind II *I have seasoned veteran and Prime conditioning up so I get healed alot* for threat. I then hit any one of my three strikes, Provoke II, Disorient II, Wardrum, my other two strikes, I then use Diversion, I throw Accomplice immediately onto my highest DPSer, usually an archer and then I rotate from there.

Depending on BR situation ill either be spamming Skull Sunder II for hate *yes I have axemanship up* or Luminous Spire since I only keep two weaponskills up at any time, the second slot always taken up by Circle Slash II. Skull Sunder II I use due to the DoT effect and Spire I use due to accuracy, plus the M.def down is nice for Mage burst BR. Ill also toss Cure IIs on myself now and then. I dont use Cure IIIs, too much MP.

Saying all this, as of right now until any serious changes happens to the class system, being a gladiator tank has more class requirements then anything else. If you can do this rotation your honestly good to go. Another thing you can do if you ever lose aggro to hopefully a melee on an NM, or an archer who knows hes got aggro and immediately runs up to the NM, is to immediately accomplice him and toss a Cure on him. This can get you hate back immediately but you have to be quick about it.

All this information is really helpful but why does being a Tank in this game has to be so complicated?

I'm normally a good tanker and never had any problems with tanking on all the MMOs I've played but in here, it just... I don't know, I'm still kinda new to the class and I'm still doing tests with skills but tanking shouldn't be so complicated in my opinion.

I seem to recall seeing a video by Doctor Mog about Taunt and Provoke. I'm not sure if it's still relevant, but those moves don't actually generate a lot of enmity on their own. They actually just put you at the top of the enmity table by a very small margin. I.E. if the person at the top is at 200 enmity, no matter what your actual value is, Taunt/Provoke will put you at 201-210. As such, those moves should be followed up by all the hate you can put behind it while whoever pulled aggro cools it for a few seconds to give you some margin to work with.

Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. If it still holds true, though, it could explain why once an Archer pulls aggro, tanks have a hard time getting it back.

Accuracy definitely seems to be a big gear consideration for Gladiators, though. Of all the classes, it's the one I have the most trouble landing hits with.

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Originally Posted by Krin

I seem to recall seeing a video by Doctor Mog about Taunt and Provoke. I'm not sure if it's still relevant, but those moves don't actually generate a lot of enmity on their own. They actually just put you at the top of the enmity table by a very small margin. I.E. if the person at the top is at 200 enmity, no matter what your actual value is, Taunt/Provoke will put you at 201-210. As such, those moves should be followed up by all the hate you can put behind it while whoever pulled aggro cools it for a few seconds to give you some margin to work with.

Again, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. If it still holds true, though, it could explain why once an Archer pulls aggro, tanks have a hard time getting it back.

Accuracy definitely seems to be a big gear consideration for Gladiators, though. Of all the classes, it's the one I have the most trouble landing hits with.

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This is how enmity works now:

http://kanican.livejournal.com/54094.html

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

This is how enmity works now:

http://kanican.livejournal.com/54094.html

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I is corrected-ezzzzzz. :-P

My biggest problem as a tank since the patch (and only with the ogre) is damage mitigation. I have skills like Rampart II, Sentinel, Deflection, Obsess II etc... and the ogre still eats through my health like crazy.

I thought maybe it was the Ghosts that, I heard, do more damage than before. I'm usually staring right into the Orge's tummy so I've never noticed.

If it's not my gear, and it's not my rotation, than is it the ogre doing more damage or those ghosts?

Q.Q for a sad tank.

Reading the enmity table located here http://kanican.livejournal.com/54373.html what does the Lv 1 vs Lv 50 enmity mean. Does this mean at level 50 if I use Provoke II I gain 442 enmity but if I used Provoke II as a level 1 I would only incur 101 enmity?

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Originally Posted by Bahn

Reading the enmity table located here http://kanican.livejournal.com/54373.html what does the Lv 1 vs Lv 50 enmity mean. Does this mean at level 50 if I use Provoke II I gain 442 enmity but if I used Provoke II as a level 1 I would only incur 101 enmity?

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Correct. This would be a large part of why lower level characters have issues tanking.