Succor for t13 megaflare?

I recently left my static because I was consistenly getting into it with my healers. We'd been at t13 for 6 weeks and weren't making progress (hadn't seen terraflare). I am a smn with 5975 hp and our blm had about 5950 hp. Sometimes people (even the monk with 6500hp) would randomly die to the stacked megaflare and I told the sch to use a succor. Both healers insisted that everyone needed vit accessories but I know that I can take 2 stacks of flare stack, a succor (not adlo mind you), and survive a rage of bahamut. It's happened 3 times. The succor issue was the straw that broke the camel's back. I just wanna know: Was I being unreasonable to ask for a succor or sacred soil (I prefer they don't waste aetherflow)?

There's this thing about relying on succor for megaflare. If you and the black mage (or anyone else for that matter) have a bit more HP, everyone can survive megaflares (marked one specifically) without any mitigation. This is mainly necessary for the third phase where the megaflares cannot be mitigated aside from succor and sacred soil. Do you really want to bet on that off chance where the scholar may or may not be in time with succor? Really up to you and your group. But this is really demanding from the healers and not just the scholar.

Ideally, you'd want to aim for the following HP minimum:
Healers and casters 6200
Dragoon, Monks and bards 6600 or even 6700

This can be reached by making use of crafted accessories without sacrificing too much damage. This isn't only for the megaflares, though. It's also for the later phases, especially tempest wing and gigaflare.

5950 is plenty for a caster IMO.

T13 is a big healer check once people know mechanics. I've heard of succor not registering due to being cast late during mega/giga etc.

In your parties defense since it is a big healer check, adding HP makes the entire fight easier.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

5950 is plenty for a caster IMO.

T13 is a big healer check once people know mechanics. I've heard of succor not registering due to being cast late during mega/giga etc.

In your parties defense since it is a big healer check, adding HP makes the entire fight easier.

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Is that with all the vitality bonuses applied? I had an occasion where I was left with somewhere between 30 and 40 HP during the megaflare dives and I was marked for it. I was around 6200 HP back then and I'm a white mage (with party bonus and food)

unless your hitting enrage
no reason not to stack hp, except cheapness / laziness.
also no reason not to pre succor, except badness.

So take your pick.

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Originally Posted by gorezilla1

We'd been at t13 for 6 weeks and weren't making progress (hadn't seen terraflare). I am a smn with 5975 hp and our blm had about 5950 hp. Sometimes people (even the monk with 6500hp) would randomly die to the stacked megaflare and I told the sch to use a succor.

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Dragon Kick
Storm's Path
6K on casters, 6.5K on non-casters
Succor
Sacred Soil

You need at least two of these things. 5500 HP on casters and 6K HP on non-casters is fine but you need DK and SP up to consistently survive. People honestly exaggerate how much HP you need in T13 if the debuffs are up and people don't mess up, though more HP definitely keeps it lenient on how topped off people have to be for every Megaflare and other select times (final phase Mega > tower, tether hits, Rage with 2 stacks), though all situations an i110 HP player would die SCH can make sure they won't.

What my static does for Megaflares is just call out they are incoming 3-4% before they do (i.e. 77% for the first) that gives healers and anyone else plenty of time to put up protection and debuff the boss. If that doesn't work out maybe get the i110 accessories ;D

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

You need at least two of these things. 5500 HP on casters and 6K HP on non-casters is fine but you need DK and SP up. People honestly exaggerate how much HP you need in T13 if the debuffs are up and people don't mess up, though more HP definitely keeps it lenient on how topped off people have to be for every Megaflare and other select times (final phase Mega > tower, tether hits, Rage with 2 stacks), though all situations an i110 HP player would die SCH can make sure they won't.

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Aside from making the healer's job easier, it eases up mechanics more. Prime example being Flare Star. Rage of Bahamut hits me, as a white mage, for somewhere between 5900 and 6100 damage with storm's path and dragon kick up if I have two stacks. While you could argue someone shouldn't be getting two stacks, the tank may not make it in time due to the distance or you get hit by one by accident due to the explosion radius. Playing cops&robbers with a flare star as a DPS would also lead to DPS loss. This is an exceptional pain to deal with for the more popular meta where groups bring two melees to meet the DPS check. If no one has the HP to survive a rage with two stacks, it could potentially mean a wipe. Especially if there are two or more with two stacks up as you can't stoneskin or adloquium everyone with two stacks, get the party to a certain health range, have those with two stacks and the tank(s) topped off. There are several things to deal with between after megaflares and rage.

Also, while Sleigh mentioned you to "pick two", you can't have Dragon Kick or Storm's Path up during Megaflare Dives. This limits you to Succor and the health requirement.

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Originally Posted by gorezilla1

I recently left my static because I was consistenly getting into it with my healers. We'd been at t13 for 6 weeks and weren't making progress (hadn't seen terraflare). I am a smn with 5975 hp and our blm had about 5950 hp. Sometimes people (even the monk with 6500hp) would randomly die to the stacked megaflare and I told the sch to use a succor. Both healers insisted that everyone needed vit accessories but I know that I can take 2 stacks of flare stack, a succor (not adlo mind you), and survive a rage of bahamut. It's happened 3 times. The succor issue was the straw that broke the camel's back. I just wanna know: Was I being unreasonable to ask for a succor or sacred soil (I prefer they don't waste aetherflow)?

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Reason why you guys can't pass Teraflare:
1) Healer was stubborn to try out something might work for the group
2) You and your caster mate was stubborn in getting melded VIT accessories

It's pretty simple. If your group overall were that good to pull off a perfect run, then you may of course choose not to spend any gil and sit on your 5.9k HP. With good healers, you can.

But the fact is, your group isn't. Someone can't keep up, someone fucks up somewhere, and there someone's gonna kiss the floor. Let me pull you a quote from the Solitude FC:

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Skimping on HP leads to shitty wipes. A few hundred HP extra works miracles in this fight.

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A lot of people that I knew on my server who have been clearing T13 already still run 6100HP for mages, FYI.

It is the overall raid attitude of your group that pulls everything down, IMHO. For you, it shouldn't be about what you could choose not to, but it should have been what you could have done to bring to the table to help to see things through.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

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Cannot disagree with Ooshima. Do everything you can to help the party then look at who can do more.

Coming from a caster currently working on T13 with 5900+ HP... Everyone else in this thread is right.

In a PERFECT world (with all usual mitigation), I will survive any regular, unavoidable mechanic (that I must eat). But, the world is not perfect. People mess up, people don't get topped off, mistakes are made... and just because you're missing 100-200 hp, you can and will die. And that's not even considering if YOU mess up/lag, because that can happen too.

After working on the mechanic part of this fight (up to adds), my team is MUCH better at the fight, but purposefully gimping your HP unnecessarily reduces the fight's 'forgiveness'. You know why people beat T5 when they get the echo (and T9, and Titan Ex, and Ramuh Ex)? It's usually not because they are failing the hard enrage, but because they are gaining forgiveness. Oh, that fireball accidentally hit 3 people? It's ok, we can survive with the echo. Someone dies? It's okay, we'll be able to kill the conflag, with the echo. Want to be lazy with snakes? It's ok, we can kill the first two immediately and let the 2x stack fall off, because we have the echo and can easily kill the big snake with only 2x stacks at a time. You may be thinking, "But, gear has something to do with that too!" Well, that's another thing... and that's why FC fights get easier with each week that goes by. People get drops and poetics to spend, so their gear gets better, and they earn forgiveness. The first win is always the hardest.

So, why NOT add forgiveness to your team? Adding room for tiny mistakes (or simple RNG and unluckiness -- whether that be a lag spike, or someone messing up) will help your team get better. This is why I'll be purchasing/melding i110 accessories. I've NEVER had to use melded gear before (we progressed through the earlier coils at a slower rate, getting more gear along the way), but I want my team to improve overall... so I will. The reason I haven't yet is because I found out the i110 accessories were coming in this patch around the same time we were working on T13 (and people weren't conquering mechanics yet), so I figured I'd wait for those. Yet now that we are on add phase, and the dreaded final phase is coming... it's time to dump some dough.

Bump your HP up 150-200 so you're not mandating your healers to have to overheal/shield to compensate for DPS cutting in on the very bare minimum HP requirement.

Doesn't cost an arm and a leg to meld a single i90 accessory (probably i110 now with this new update) with VIT + DPS-appropriate materia. Worst case you respec some VIT from your 30 points allocation for a small loss in DPS.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Also, while Sleigh mentioned you to "pick two", you can't have Dragon Kick or Storm's Path up during Megaflare Dives. This limits you to Succor and the health requirement.

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Soil and Succor make it do-able in i110.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Especially if there are two or more with two stacks up as you can't stoneskin or adloquium everyone with two stacks, get the party to a certain health range, have those with two stacks and the tank(s) topped off. There are several things to deal with between after megaflares and rage.

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Two non-tanks with 2 stacks for Rage is quite easy to handle, between PLD SS, WHM SS, Succor, and Adlo, regardless of max HP. 3 or more people getting 2 stacks, IMO that group deserves to wipe that pull.

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Originally Posted by gorezilla1

Was I being unreasonable

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Yes. No reason not to stack VIT. If your group can get up those extra few hp it makes handling flare star and other mechanics much easier. Melee with no stacks can stay on the boss while I eat two. Casters can dps rather than dragging them to be picked up so the VIT was actually a dps gain for our BLM as he has more time to just freecast.

With lower VIT, even with succor/sacred soil both up, we could not survive 2 stacks flare star without adlo or stoneskin. The timing was really tight to get those up and if more than two people had two stacks I'd be forced to use Fey Covenant rather than saving it for gigaflare.

During megaflare, the range of my succor seemed to miss a melee and created a lot more movement preventing me from dpsing as I had to run in to cast it. Not to mention the mana sink in aoe heals and the extra adlos/stoneskin on melee who pop b4b forcing our bard to ballad more. With just a sacred soil I can place it in the middle of my dps rotation and reapply all my dots helping push phases much faster.

I'm sure my group could have made it work but it makes the fight so much more forgiving to have that extra buffer. Prevents a lot of derp wipes to stuff like DK not getting up in time, range issues on aoe mitigation, poor positioning with flare stars, blood for blood not getting clicked off, and on and on. This sped up our progression and gave people more time to get used to the bigger mechanics as one person's derp mistake didn't necessarily mean wipe, start over.

My group decided we'd stack VIT for progression purposes and drop VIT if it meant a dps gain if we failed to meet those checks. That would have been a fair compromise to get you to just put on a tank ring.

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Originally Posted by gorezilla1

I recently left my static because I was consistenly getting into it with my healers.

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You have no idea how intense this fight is, especially for healers...
Every single guide on the interwebz, coming from 'professional' players, recommands having more HP than what you usually have after beating turn 12 (6200-6600 depending on your class). Yet you refuse to add some more HP, and come here to complain...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you are still learning the fight, which means that you do not have any DPS issue YET, you need to learn the mechanics and react properly (megaflare, rage of bahamut, earthshaker...). If that is the case, your DPS is irrelevant, just survive and get more VIT.

One final thought : as you left a static because 'your healers are bad' while you are not even close to perfection (and even did not try to have more VIT), I feel like you are just arrogant and have no idea how pleased your healers were when you left.

+1 to you getting a vit accessory.

i go from i129 to i126 just to make things a bit easier on the healers, which makes eveyrthing easier for the group.

To emphasise what's already been stated:

When I first entered T13 I was coming as SCH, the group didn't have nearly enough HP and as such, it was honestly the most intensive thing I've ever healed, if I took my eye of the ball for a single GCD for whatever reason, someone was probably going to die. A DPS taking needless damage, a tank dipping lower than expected, having to throw out a raise usually snowballed into a wipe if it was within a few GCDs of a megaflare or transition.

Getting our HP up made a world of difference and made things much more tolerable.

So yes, whilst it's doable with 6k, you will dramatically reduce the occurrence of comical deaths to silly stuff by pumping your up HP (Not to mention, it'll do wonders for your healer's sanity). We settled on 6.4-6.6k and it clearly paid off imo.

Haven't beat the fight yet but OUR SMN and BLM have 5.9 to 6.1. Mega flare isn't really a problem . For everyone Megaflare i put succor and a Sacred soil up (1st phase) and they survive with about 1.8 to 2.6 health, melee included.

It is Gigaflare that is the problem. For the 1st one I put succor, virus and sacred soil. Also the war does storms path, no Dragon kicks though. We survive that with about 70 to 1.2 health. Also if virus is down I use EOS 20% magic defense boost when I know the next super big attack is comimg or 20% more heal for bigger shield.

Having more health is great if you have a good group that derps to often. Unless your group doesn't make mistakes often get more health.

My point is that you SCH is bad lol he should stay in an area where succor will hit everyone or ask you guys to come a little closer. negating 6000 to 900 damage is big.

a SCH that doesn't want to put AoE protection for a big AoE attack?
hum... that's the whole reason a SCH is here in the first place...

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Originally Posted by melflomil

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If you're running it monkless, 5900 to 6100 is on the low side for sure. It's doable if you guys play spot on, but Megaflare combos in p4 can be quite nasty when there's a tower in the stacked Megaflare group.

Also, for what you said about Gigaflares: you have to Succor really early for its shield to take effect. If you Succor people up just as Gigaflare is about to cast and even if it takes another 3-4 seconds for Gigaflare cast to finish with everyone having Galvanize up - the shield won't register for the impact. You will gain the heal from Succor but you will notice that everyone's Galvanize is still up even after the Gigaflare. Basically, you will need to cast Succor before the Gigaflare even starts channeling.

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Originally Posted by Tranquil

Also, for what you said about Gigaflares: you have to Succor really early for its shield to take effect. If you Succor people up just as Gigaflare is about to cast and even if it takes another 3-4 seconds for Gigaflare cast to finish with everyone having Galvanize up - the shield won't register for the impact. You will gain the heal from Succor but you will notice that everyone's Galvanize is still up even after the Gigaflare. Basically, you will need to cast Succor before the Gigaflare even starts channeling.

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This is so true. I will succor before gigaflare, see it proc before the animation damage, and galvanize is left intact. In the final phase I save my virus for Akh Morn and our Ninja seems to survive with less than 100 hp with b4b up. He is wearing VIT accessories. It's really hard to get this up when tank is low from flatten in p2, or group just had a third rage of bahamut knock off any mitigation. I gave up trying to precast it in p1-2. I never sacred soil the gigaflare in the first two phases either. First one my soil is on CD and the second one I save soil for p3 megaflare since the stack group survives with 200 hp (with succor and soil both up).

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

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Wait, you let people have b4b up for mechanics? Only mechanic we have it up for is earthshakers, except if we get tempest wing haven't dared that one yet.
Might be a little bit us being scared from dying a few times and everyone knowing I only ballad once in t13 unless people die in last phase.

But I do think a vit piece wouldn't hurt you, at the same time until everyone's comfortable and people have more hp the sch should succor in my opinion. We have a war who pays attention to the rotations and calls out before mega and giga so our sch gets a good warning to succor. (Also I held my group back not being able to afford a vit piece so I was barely at 6.2k I believe, had to have my tank pay for a ring even so I barely lived the DB mega with 23 hp. And we still have a db mega deal 6.6k every now and then, so get a vit piece)

Both were unreasonable, u most keep it safe, maybe everyone has 6k plus hp, but just in case, sch should try to mitigate on time the damage, just to prevent, play it safe, and also we sch mitigate damage, big aoe and sacred soil walk together

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Originally Posted by Elkya95

Wait, you let people have b4b up for mechanics?

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I don't actually let them have it up. They just pop it whenever and laugh at my reaction. It makes things stressful. Your static is much nicer than mine if they adjust their rotation for mechanics.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

I don't actually let them have it up. They just pop it whenever and laugh at my reaction. It makes things stressful. Your static is much nicer than mine if they adjust their rotation for mechanics.

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Ouch. Mine tend to pop B4B during the gaps between Megaflares and Earthshakers, and then pray they don't get targeted by the shakers. If they do, they cancel it since it'll be wearing off shortly after they're done placing the puddles anyhow.

I'm fine with B4B on phase 1 earth shakers, (They typically have it on the second set), phase 4 is a big nono though as I can't always get them topped for the twister.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

I don't actually let them have it up. They just pop it whenever and laugh at my reaction. It makes things stressful. Your static is much nicer than mine if they adjust their rotation for mechanics.

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Hmmm, you should try teaching them the hard way to not use it, let them die. I've taken a mega to the face with b4b a few times, you could take a sec after the person dies to write <3 in party chat. Works wonders really.