Fountain of Flames on t12

Alright, Static is working on t12 last phase, and I'm debating with one of my friends about who should go in. I personally think that the ranged should go in with OT, and that melee dps should focus boss down. He thinks that All melee should do the fountain, and have the ranged chill out and dps. He say that having the ranged do the Fountain would be too complicated because of Pinion, but for me, I don't see any difference in it.

TL;DR Should Melees do the fountain or the range?

Which one is better and why?

The ranged are far better when dealing with the fountains.

Fountain of Flames can land outside of melee range, making it difficult for the melee to continue dpsing, unless the boss is moved closer to the fountain.
Ranged don't have this problem, and can just continue attacking as normal.

There's also no difference in Pinion, as both melee and ranged can get targeted by it.

It would probably be better to let the ranged handle it as the potential for DPS loss will be lower, but honestly, it can be handled pretty much any way you like. We do Tank > Tank > NIN, BRD > Tank > Tank.

We usually move the boss near fountain so melee can dps during they sit into it. Maybe that pinion mean that ranged can move pinions away from the group, but if they sit into fountain they can not choose anymore. We do tank 3x, bard 2x, scholar 2x, monk 1x usually.

I believe we make our OT take the first 3 stacks, then they tank swap and the other tank goes in for 3 stacks then a melee. Next the other melee goes in first and take 2 stacks, then the tanks get 3 each. We also have our healers do the brand in that phase (well all phases really). I would say use ranged in the fountains instead though, let the melee dps instead. I mean it's usually okay with our first fountain since the tanks go in first anyway so they take the phoenix over, but the second one is more clunky with melee going over first.

We do OT-NIN-DRG(me). We pull the boss to the fountain anyway so the OT can continue dpsing so it made sense for us to have the melee do the fountain so it's less crowded around the boss. Two stacks is about 12 seconds in the fountain for dps so won't be that much of a loss, if you're pushing 4 bennus you can just coast your way to the finish line anyways

Depends on your comp


If you have a BRD and a SMN/BLM it is best to have the range handle the fountains and have the BLM take the last two stacks (Less movement involved).

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

Depends on your comp


If you have a BRD and a SMN/BLM it is best to have the range handle the fountains and have the BLM take the last two stacks (Less movement involved).

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So in your above example would this work?

OT WAR Takes 4 stacks -> SMN Takes 2 -> BRD Takes 2 ? What will happen on the next fountain if this method is used? Will the OT be able to pick up another 4 or will his debuff not allow? A 3rd person (eg. DRG) would need to swap with one of the ranged before the Tank could soak 4 again? Or would you just have the MT PLD Take those 4 ?

Just trying to wrap my head around this since there are so many different strats.

There is a Revelation after each Fountain of Fire; when people say "OT", the tank swap is implicit.

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

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I can't say for certain but I'm pretty positive that the OT will still have his stacks when the second fountain is up meaning he can't take anymore.

We go 2x BRD, 2x WHM, 2x SCH, 2x BLM and the Bards stacks wear off right as the next fountain is spawning. Considering the debuff resets each time you gain a stack the WAR would probably still have 4 stacks when the fountain popped, I could be wrong.

Edit: As someone mentioned, in the 4 OT stacks the tanks tank swap so the new OT would have no stacks.

We never move the boss to be sure we don't have interrupt. As the only melee in the party I hardly take stack in the fountain except when the timing isn't right because of the benou rush AND the fountain is next to the boss. Otherwise we do 3 OT, 2 SMN, 2 BRD, 1 WHM OR 3OT, 1SMN (Benou rush), 2 BLM(DRG if next to the boss), 2 BRD.
Depend the situation.

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

So in your above example would this work?

OT WAR Takes 4 stacks -> SMN Takes 2 -> BRD Takes 2 ? What will happen on the next fountain if this method is used? Will the OT be able to pick up another 4 or will his debuff not allow? A 3rd person (eg. DRG) would need to swap with one of the ranged before the Tank could soak 4 again? Or would you just have the MT PLD Take those 4 ?

Just trying to wrap my head around this since there are so many different strats.

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4 stacks will kill your WAR, or anybody. People use OT on both fountains of the phase because that role will have switched regardless due to the Revelation debuff, he goes Brand > Fountain > Rev at the start of the phase, and then Rebrith > Fountain > Rev in the middle. So you don't really have time for a tank swap right after fountain, most people will switch either after the OT get their stacks, or on Brand if tanks are dealing with Brand. So while you have the OT take the first 3 stacks of each fountain, the OT will have changed from your WAR to your PLD by the second fountain, or vice versa.

The reason people are saying not to use ranged is because then you will have MT, OT, Melee, Melee, Ranged all stacked in a relatively small space. If you have your healers handling brands, they have to deal with brand swaps and pre-heals, and healing 600-1600 point hits from pinions flying through the area near Pheonix.

We have tanks handle Brands, and do this: OT > OT > OT > WHM > WHM (Tank swap w/brand) > BLM > BLM> SCH on the first one, then OT > OT > OT > BRD > BRD (Tank swap w/brand) > DRG > DRG> SCH.

Always pull pheonix to the fountain so that your OT can hit pheonix while taking stacks - PLD in SwOa can be doing 270+ dps and a good WAR can be doing 260-300.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

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This is awesome thanks for the tips thats exactly what i was looking for! I have one question using this method, out of the 2 tanks which would be better suited to do the Brand passing (movement)? OT seems like the logical bet but will that change depending on who has phoenix at a given time? Or will the OT (Whoever isnt tanking boss) always be able to be the passer (meaning both of us have to pay attention to brand castbar)?

Unless the fountain spawns next to the boss it's probably best to just let all ranged handle it. We personally do BRD > BLM > SCH > WHM because the Revelation comes out early in the cycle so we let healers stay immobile for that - not that it's actually an issue anymore, that's just the reasoning behind the order. A more DPS friendly method would probably be BRD > WHM > SCH > BLM.

My group does tank 4, healer 2, bard 2 on odd fountains and other tank 4, other healer 2, BLM 2 on even sets. We let melee wail on Phoenix because making them move and adjusting for it is pointless really. Never have a problem with this setup.

The theory behind NOT having the ranged handle the mechanic is if the fountain spawns next to the boss that's 6-7 players in a very small area, meaning people will get hit by pinions they would otherwise not have to.

We move the boss and do OT (3 stacks) -> melee (2) -> melee (2) -> healer (1). Tank moves after Revelation just for safety, which means we lose a little OT dps (a few GCD at most) but the DPS check is very lax at that point. Otherwise it has no negative effect on our overall DPS since the boss is positioned in such a way that you can keep getting both rear and flank positionals from inside the fountain.

Works just fine for us, but I know plenty of groups that don't move the boss and have ranged deal with the fountain. Do what works for your group.

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Originally Posted by Best-MNK-NA

The theory behind NOT having the ranged handle the mechanic is if the fountain spawns next to the boss that's 6-7 players in a very small area, meaning people will get hit by pinions they would otherwise not have to.

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It's a bad theory if all your ranged all clustering near the fountain when it's not their turn.

With my group's composition we do brd>sch>blm>whm, 2 stacks each every fountain. Never had an issue with bird overlaps. Having all ranged dealing with it means no pulling the boss near the fountain either to compensate for needing an OT or melee in it to share the stacks.

Ok, so far there are two kind of methods involved in this and each has their two variations.

Methods would be:
Move phoenix to the fountain
or
Keep phoenix where it is

While moving phoenix may seem better as it creates consistency, please don't forget that Revelation comes shortly after the fountain is placed (give or take 3 seconds). Depending on the tank's timing, this may or may not get people killed. Don't forget: Revelation deals area damage. You could wait for it to go out and move phoenix after this, however.
So what about keeping Phoenix where it is? There's no real issue here, imo. You could easily shift the fountain duty order around that would minimize DPS loss or simply makes things easier. But this may or may not complicate things if you include melees and/or tanks within the fountain rotation.

So in a list of advantages and disadvantages:
Moving Phoenix
Advantage - Slightly more consistency concerning fountain location vs phoenix's position and tanks can contribute towards the fountain rotation.
Disadvantage - Moving phoenix may be dangerous or may cause melee dps loss. Tanks may or may not accidentally transfer the brand as well if they happen to bump into a melee by accident.

Keeping Phoenix where it is
Advantage - Minimal DPS loss group-wide. Less likely for accidental brand derps.
Disadvantage - Can't include melees and/or tanks or group loses some DPS

If it helps giving you (the OP) an idea, here is how my group handles things:
Order is White Mage, Bard, Summoner, Black Mage. Scholar has full-time healing duty on the tanks (although you can easily switch scholar and white mage around)
White Mage can pop sprint before the fountain pops. Bards can't do this and casters can just keep doing their thing till it's their turn.
Doesn't really matter whether bard or summoner goes 2nd or 3rd.
Black Mage goes last so he/she can just aetherial towards the 3rd one (summoner in this case) and does not need to move out of the fountain.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

White Mage can pop sprint before the fountain pops. Bards can't

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You have plenty of time to run into the fountain when it first appears. Don't need a sprint for it.

You usually want a healers taking fountain during stacks 3-4, 5-7ish also as pinions spawn during them, as it's easier to keep yourself topped off for stack dmg+bird with healers innate m.def.

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Originally Posted by Kaisha

You have plenty of time to run into the fountain when it first appears. Don't need a sprint for it.

You usually want a healers taking fountain during stacks 3-4, 5-7ish also as pinions spawn during them, as it's easier to keep yourself topped off for stack dmg+bird with healers innate m.def.

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I did use the word "can", not "must".

My group does the OT (to 4 stacks)>> Bard (to 2 stacks)>> BLM (to 2 stacks) and with the Nin as a sub if someone were to die.

Mahes: we also do that.
Nevertheless, we already noticed that sometimes, the BLM and I (I am BRD) still have debuff stacks when it is our turn to soak the fountain. We have to calculate our timing to be sure the boss won't get a buff and we won't get a new debuff with still a part of the previous one. Usually it works. Sometimes it's really tight.

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Originally Posted by EdgeFayth

Mahes: we also do that.
Nevertheless, we already noticed that sometimes, the BLM and I (I am BRD) still have debuff stacks when it is our turn to soak the fountain. We have to calculate our timing to be sure the boss won't get a buff and we won't get a new debuff with still a part of the previous one. Usually it works. Sometimes it's really tight.

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Yeah I bard for my group as well, and I have noticed mine always falls off right before I get the stack. However I still haven't seen the stacks not falling off, but that could just mean my group has been lucky! ^.^

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Originally Posted by EdgeFayth

Mahes: we also do that.
Nevertheless, we already noticed that sometimes, the BLM and I (I am BRD) still have debuff stacks when it is our turn to soak the fountain. We have to calculate our timing to be sure the boss won't get a buff and we won't get a new debuff with still a part of the previous one. Usually it works. Sometimes it's really tight.

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Probably first fountain, first person went in late, 2nd fountain first person went in too early.

I've never seen anything like that during all my T12 clears D:

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

Probably first fountain, first person went in late, 2nd fountain first person went in too early.

I've never seen anything like that during all my T12 clears D:

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We had this happen to us the first time we got to final phase. I'm pretty sure that's the cause. We actually have our DRG and SMN alternate being the 3rd person to avoid this (since it killed the DRG when it happened), but I'm sure it must have been the first fountain being triggered too late and the second one being triggered earlier/on time.

Thank you for all the answers guys! I'll make sure to take them into account when talking with the static!

How do you guys deal with multiple pinions in the last phase? My smn gets 2 shot by them and routinely gets hit by 2 (his own plus 1 of someone elses). Are they tough to dodge? Is there some sort of strategy you use to avoid people getting hit by someone else's pinion?

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Originally Posted by PROBOUND

This is awesome thanks for the tips thats exactly what i was looking for! I have one question using this method, out of the 2 tanks which would be better suited to do the Brand passing (movement)? OT seems like the logical bet but will that change depending on who has phoenix at a given time? Or will the OT (Whoever isnt tanking boss) always be able to be the passer (meaning both of us have to pay attention to brand castbar)?

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I can only speak to what our group does, does this is how it plays out:

Rebirth
Brand > OT takes brand from whomever gets it to start
Fountain (with OT in it) > MT moves Pheonix to Fountain
Rev (Taken by PLD)
OT is done in Fountain, WHM steps in
Flames of Unforgiveness > OT (now in tank stance) stacks on MT and hits provoke - Brand is passed, MT moves away (now with brand, and now the OT), now the OT and MT and switched as the same time the brand holder as switched

As with any raid, communication is key - talk talk talk in your VOIP.

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Originally Posted by stoxastic

How do you guys deal with multiple pinions in the last phase? My smn gets 2 shot by them and routinely gets hit by 2 (his own plus 1 of someone elses). Are they tough to dodge? Is there some sort of strategy you use to avoid people getting hit by someone else's pinion?

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Raid awareness is important. My static had an off night last night with DCs and derps, and I was killed as the OT with 8700 hp (in more vit gear than I usually am) not in defiance by 3 stacks > my pinion > DPS pinion without a heal. I tried to dodge but with Flames of Unfogiveness coming I couldn't go too far away and one of our DPS rammed with me with an extra pinion that killed me.

The best way to deal with pinions is to have DPS try to run them off the side of the map. So if they get a pinion, they should move so that their tether will only travel along the rim of the circle, as opposed to any angle through the circle. You may have your OT moving around, your ranged dps or healers moving around, and its hard to predict where they will go. The ranged should become adept at pushing those pinions off the rim. The melee can't do much, so if they get tethered in a shitty way they need to call out in your VOIP where its headed and for your ranged and tanks to be heads up. Your healers will have to take special care to pre-heal anyone expecting to get 2 pinions.

Everyone says the last phase is a faceroll, but its only true if you get lucky with pinion or if your group has good raid awareness and good communication.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Everyone says the last phase is a faceroll, but its only true if you get lucky with pinion or if your group has good raid awareness and good communication.

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It is a faceroll. It is the hardest phase to wipe, technically. Because it has the least things that could go wrong. Most groups derp in Phase 2 with crappy brand passing, blue-red fire handing, derp healing on OT (bennu tanking), OT pulls bennu away too late and becomes too close to a dead one, etc.

If people are still slapping you with pinons here and there, like every single time, it's time to tell them "git gud or git rekt'd"

T11's Nanospore Jet tether mechanics probably demands more chemistry and coordination than your T12 pinons. If you can deal with T11, I don't see what's so difficult about T12 pinons.

My group has the OT take 3 stacks, The DRG take 2 stack, MNK takes 2 stacks, and the BRD takes the last stack. The MT brings phoenix next to the fountain so melee can still dps the boss at all times. Some positional may not be met but we never have a dps problem and this keeps up time on the boss at all times. We have our healers handle brand mechanics in last phase instead of Tanks