This will solve most of the PVP issues.

Making tanks Useful, this is something I often ask myself, when playing PVP, why can't the tanks generate aggro and why isn't there a aggro system for tanks. this would solve a lot of issues and make tanks useful. SE trying to take the easy way out? Here is a small list of things that it could fix, if tanks could generate aggro in PVP.

Caster- will not get interrupted nearly as much and will be able to do their jobs more efficiently.If you have a good tank he/she will be able to keep the aggro off the group ,if you have a good healer they will be able to keep your meat shield alive along with the rest of the group. Healers may still be TOP priority and that is to be expected but this Will lessen the burden that the healer has to carry and split it more evenly. Depending on your skill level this will also change the group makeup for some groups, so instead of having two healers. A skilled group could go in with just a one healer and one tank. would look something like this.

Healer (keeps tank and party alive) > Tank (tries to keep aggro and absorbs the Damage) > Dps (caster will be interrupted less and it would become more fun for the)

why should caster have to kite...
what do you guys think?

You should stick to the carebear content you're familiar with and leave PvP alone.

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Originally Posted by Andriel

You should stick to the carebear content you're familiar with and leave PvP alone.

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Implying PvP isn't carebear in FFXIV?

I don't get this very well, why tank would take aggro on Player who act like they want, actualy you want your tank to put charm debuff on players ?
Pvp is not Pve, mob and boss react to the enmity, the player will not react to enmity and they attack the enemis they want.
Maybe tank should have more protector tools on pvp, but don't think them will be used like you use them in pve.
I play a lot PVP and i do also Pve, i would not say pvp or pve is for carebear.
High End PVE like coil still good challenge.
It is the result of having a so small pvp community you say the pve is just for carebear ?

I'v played many mmos and a lot of them work this way and are way more HC then this game. This seems to work well for them and would not mind seeing some kinda change, to make PVP more balanced. examples of games like this in PVP would be EQ2 and wow, there are lot more. btw Andriel i understand that you like things as they are,and maybe afraid of change. Please don't think that this game is for the HC in any way. If this does not make since to anyone, explain your reasons. not trying to start crap. just putting what i think should happen, does not mean it will. Btw I bet if the mechanics was already the way i explained it, you would be use to it and telling someone else it should not be change do to the fact that you are comfortable the way things are. Change is inevitable for better or worst it will happen.

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Originally Posted by uryu17

...snip...Caters- will not get interrupted nearly as much and will be able to do their jobs more efficiently..snip....

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It's just fast paced. And when they make a mistake it's compounded ten fold. Take my wedding for instance. We wanted the beef stroganoff. They mixed it up and brought up lemon chicken. Simple mistake right? Ya well tell that to my aunt!!

I'm not getting what Tank having Aggro on other players would do? Would it decrease the Damage the Enemy player *EP dose to your Team mates? Will the Tank deal more damage to the EP the more Aggro the Tank has on them? Gotta be some form of stat change in order for Aggro to be of any use in PVP.

Tanks are already very useful **when played well**. You can apply that statement to every class/job...

My first reaction to this thread was a huge /facepalm and thinking to myself "how can people be so clueless?", but after thinking about it, I can understand why you and many others think there are issues. It's not your fault that roughly 90% of said tanks/healers/casters (excluding pre-mades) don't really know how to be useful. You can't even begin to fathom how awesome these 'useless' jobs are because you *might* see one good one every 10 matches or so.

Yes, this is a heavy PVE game, but when it comes to PVP you have to think outside of that box. Certain armor and abilities may serve you well in PVE, but hinder or render you damn near useless in PVP. If more people could start by understanding that concept, the rest should fall into place. Please don't ignore the following thread, it has a lot of great information on gearing up for PVP. I really wish it was sticky'd lol.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...king-gear-sets

Tanks: In PVP, the way you 'defend' your allies is different...reducing damage (Testudo, Thrill of War, etc), preventing them from taking damage (stun-locking, Cover, Holmgang, etc) and by doing as much damage as you can. 'The best defense is a good offense' comes to mind. Lose the VIT and Parry gear, use STR on your right side. If you can, twink your left side so that you have max Determination > Crit > Skill Speed. You want as little accuracy as possible. HP is not a big deal because in groups, you will almost always be the last person to be targeted.

Casters: Make good use of your CC, keep distance. Remember Blizzard 2, Surecast, and Tridisaster? They serve almost no purpose in PVE but you should dust them off, they're super useful in PVP.

The current problem with PLD/WAR is that their presence isn't important enough to shift the tide of a fight. Sure they have some niche mechanics, but for the most part other classes have access to those skills in some way. Also since they aren't tanks in pvp, their mitigation abilities go to waste. Being able to force players to attack you is not the solution, it would be disastrous if they made that happen.

The solution in my opinion is bolster PLD/WAR CC abilities, instead of being a "tank" they will be "control" in pvp.

* Defiance, Shield Oath increases the duration of outgoing CC and reduces the duration of incoming CC.
* Glory Slash removes beneficial buffs first instead of useless ones like protection
* Glory Slash CD reduced to 90 secs (traited)
* Cover CD reduced to 60secs, now also transfers magical damage to the caster
* Mythril Tempest CD reduced to 90secs when traited
* Thrill of War CD reduced to 120secs when traited
* Testudo CD reduced to 120 secs when traited
* Storm's eye HP recovery debuff changed to affect outgoing and incoming healing

there is not issue PVE is not PVP that's all,
i don't want to see tank to force players to attack them, we aren't in PVE...
Players have to attack the enemy they want not to be forced to attack tank until he is die
i think a little cc to force player to attack them for some times made with provoke would be nice maybe^^, i am open to CC but not
too much pve mechanics in our pvp, drone is already enough...

And for caster : i play 90 pourcent of the times whm, and what deelo said is right

Pretty much what Deelo said is spot on.

Adding aggro into PvP doesn't even make sense to me, and trying to make that work would ruin the balance SE has been trying to achieve so far.

I understand what some of you are saying and i keep seeing, this is not PVE. that has nothing to do with it, i'm going to assume that this is your first mmo, where you have played PVP. most games have it so that the tank can gain aggro lol. If their healer dies then so does the tank. then the dps if you choose this order. i'm ok with what you guys are saying. But please don't keep saying PVE is not PVP, makes me think you have not played that many MMOS or PVP what so ever. also going to assume most of you casual players. I will just leave things as is if no one agrees. No need for me argue with the masses. You should really go try your hands at some other mmos that have PVP and compare the two.

Off hand here is a list of mmorpgs I've played:

Ragnarok Online
Lineage II
Aion
Age of Conan
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
Guild Wars 2
Champions Online

Out of all of those games, only Lineage II allowed tanks to taunt in pvp. It wasn't like that when the game launched, but was changed in a patch a few years later. Then quickly nerfed because how overpowered it was against other players. People are suggesting to you that you think pvp is like pve, largely because tanking is something only found in pve.

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Originally Posted by uryu17

... i'm going to assume that this is your first mmo, where you have played PVP.

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Originally Posted by uryu17

But please don't keep saying PVE is not PVP

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Assuming people are ignorant and havent played any other pvp mmos is not a very good way to make an argument. Tanks are useful. You cant play your class as if you were in a PvE party if you want to have impact in XIV PvP.

I dont think PvP should be moved toward the PvE style that you are describing (yes you are describing the current XIV PvE mechanic). I am opposed to your suggestion.

clearly, as well i don't wan't that, it sound not like pvp to me

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Originally Posted by uryu17

I understand what some of you are saying and i keep seeing, this is not PVE. that has nothing to do with it, i'm going to assume that this is your first mmo, where you have played PVP. most games have it so that the tank can gain aggro lol. If their healer dies then so does the tank. then the dps if you choose this order. i'm ok with what you guys are saying. But please don't keep saying PVE is not PVP, makes me think you have not played that many MMOS or PVP what so ever. also going to assume most of you casual players. I will just leave things as is if no one agrees. No need for me argue with the masses. You should really go try your hands at some other mmos that have PVP and compare the two.

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So...you're saying SE should jump on the 'monkey see, monkey do' bandwagon? Rather than just learning how to play effectively in this game with the mechanics they created?

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Originally Posted by uryu17

Making tanks Useful, this is something I often ask myself, when playing PVP, why can't the tanks generate aggro and why isn't there a aggro system for tanks. this would solve a lot of issues and make tanks useful. SE trying to take the easy way out? Here is a small list of things that it could fix, if tanks could generate aggro in PVP...

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Target swapping is one of the most important strategies in PvP. As a Healer, when you notice someone is focused (lets say a tank), you will spam heal them and do nothing else, especially if they are meat shielding for you and you cant get interrupted. PvP would be boring as hell with that implemented. I like how tanks get some survival moves for the group, like holmgang to hold someone down if needed, aoe grp hp buff, aoe grp shield buff from pld. Tanks are fine for group assistance in my opinion...

jesus what is this
tanks are insanely useful when played correctly especially paladins both offensively and defensively a skilled paladin is the most important player in the alliance next to healers

most of this stems from that only maybe 5% of the people who que for frontlines are actually skilled especially regarding the intricacies of this games pvp
because of the structure of this games pvp its actually very chess-matic and becomes an abysmal mess when you throw in button spamming retards
its both fast paced and very slow paced at the same time and mistakes are easily exploited by great players

Heres a thought: How about let tanks have an ability (or modify a current one) to "shield" 1 ally. This ability will only tether to one ally and can only be active when ally is not more than X amount of yalms away. It will split the damage 50/50 of the ally with the tank.

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Originally Posted by Domira

Off hand here is a list of mmorpgs I've played:

Ragnarok Online
Lineage II
Aion
Age of Conan
World of Warcraft
Guild Wars
Guild Wars 2
Champions Online

Out of all of those games, only Lineage II allowed tanks to taunt in pvp. It wasn't like that when the game launched, but was changed in a patch a few years later. Then quickly nerfed because how overpowered it was against other players. People are suggesting to you that you think pvp is like pve, largely because tanking is something only found in pve.

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SWTOR allowed tanks to taunt in PVP. Even the DPS specs could taunt. Taunt reduced the outgoing damage of anyone afflicted to anyone they hit except you.

I think tanks could be more viable if a emnity vs damage mechanic was introduced.

It would also forces healers to not just spam medicas and medica 2 all the time as keeping emnity down would be in their favour.

The higher up on the aggro chart you are for a specific player the more of the full damage you take

How about no. Again this isn't PvE, so stop trying to make it such.

Dee Loe already said everything I would have wanted to say. As it stands, tanks protecting their party is more tactical and good timing while forcing them to be aggressive during the rest of the time. A tank with defensive cooldowns is great for overextending and making crowds waste their precious cooldowns on you, just in case those whining here wanted to actually feel like a tank.

Now, if you wanted to take the FFXI approach and give Provoke this weird (and very brief) pacification/silence type thing, then that's great. Running around spamming Flash or Overpower for this concept of "enmity in PvP", no thanks. I'll go do FATEs instead.

This is another one of those threads that bases its claims and desires off of your average pug player. Stop it.

As a HC pvp'er, who plays marauder/warrior more than any other class, tanks are useful as they are. I agree adding an aggro would be dumb and pointless. The tanks role is to either survive/CC in the flag(FL) while the other tank guards the healers with their CC. you don't need additional mechanics added, you just need to learn that FFXIV is a group play pvp and you have a role as is and learn to play it. All BRDs know theyre caster killers, just like melee are healer killers. Just look at the pvp abilities you unlock to get the idea.

Maelstorm! Till sea swallows all!

[QUOTE=Domira;2700813]The current problem with PLD/WAR is that their presence isn't important enough to shift the tide of a fight. Sure they have some niche mechanics, but for the most part other classes have access to those skills in some way. Also since they aren't tanks in pvp, their mitigation abilities go to waste. Being able to force players to attack you is not the solution, it would be disastrous if they made that happen.

The solution in my opinion is bolster PLD/WAR CC abilities, instead of being a "tank" they will be "control" in pvp.

PLD and WAR/Mar are control classes. No need to alter proven abilities. I've played with PLds that pull 40k+ dmg per FL and do their job too. Tanks are for holding down the flag and/or protecting the healers(ie picking off that DRg with a burst when hes way out of his healers range)

MRDs not so bad, but PLD really dont do too much.

Do you have an alt ?

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

MRDs not so bad, but PLD really dont do too much.

Do you have an alt ?

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Again, you're playing with PLDs that don't know what they're doing. No alts, but I do PVP on my BLK sporadically, more or less if im on B team

Cool, just wondered how you can discuss other classes or even think you have a full perspective on pvp when you only have WAR/BLM.

No PLDs are bad in pvp regardless, they are easy to deal with and pose no dps threat. Yes they can soak damage, but you can just as easily ignore them. My point is beyond the occasionally buff GLDs dont bring a great deal.

anyways im bored of discussing with a scrub. Enjoy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Cool, just wondered how you can discuss other classes or even think you have a full perspective on pvp when you only have WAR/BLM.

No PLDs are bad in pvp regardless, they are easy to deal with and pose no dps threat. Yes they can soak damage, but you can just as easily ignore them. My point is beyond the occasionally buff GLDs dont bring a great deal.

anyways im bored of discussing with a scrub. Enjoy.

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That escalated quickly.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

No PLDs are bad in pvp regardless, they are easy to deal with and pose no dps threat.

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http://i.imgur.com/CzSQOnt.png

A good paladin averages 70k per match and can hit 100k+.

Not to mention the support

- +25% party-wide defense bonus
- Cover
- Best stuns in the game on GCD
- Gives VIT party bonus, roughly +200 hp to everyone

Just because most people don't play paladin effectively doesn't mean paladins are bad, this applies to every job in pvp, they're all fairly balanced if played correctly.

when we say the best stun GCD is well used, pld lock out any player if other dps choose to be coordinate with this PLD it can mean instant dead to the player
by exemple you focus a healer you stun, silence, stun, an stun again with all the dps behind you burst the same target, this healer can be down without be able to do anything.

And also
cover (you may usualy use it on healer in difficulty, you don't just take the damage, you
prevent for some times you healer to be decast and he is able to cast free till the end of the cover)
and the 25% defense party -wide
and pld is able to do good damage anyway... he have some burst skill and dot, with dps accesories he can deal good damage, it's not as high than the mrd can do by bursting but mrd don't have the best stun GCD, cover, can't silence
(pvp is also about how good your group is and how them will coordinate, and it's true you need to be coordinate to take advantage of the control in pvp)

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Originally Posted by Blubbers

snip

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It's no use. We're scrubs. We know nothing of PvP and WE WILL NEVER BE USEFUL EVER.

qq

Mmm at first you can think tant tank are not useeful in PvP because in PvE they don't do so much damage and their main role is to keep enemies on them, but in PvP they lost their main role.
By the way they have both a powerfull buff to enhace their DPS (Berserk is a +50% STR buff) and they don't have to think to the damage reduction caused by Defiance or Shield Oath, so their DPS in not so bad for a Melee class (Am I wrong or they even gave a little DPS buff to tank in pvp?), but they got other roles in PvP that cannot be ignored:

PALADIN:
Stunlock, I don't know if you saw ina a party of 2 healers how it could be painful, if you stunlock one and focus fire the other, with a little cohordination you can bunr a team.
Stun Limit break, I played with a PLD that in the B party ALWAYS tried to interrupt the cast of LB, he did it a lot of time with sun and glory slash and it make enemies lost 1/2 LB bar, that is really a crappy thing for an entire party.
Glory slash against buffed enemies.
Cover and Tetsudo the one that need protection.
and they can also Stoneskin for emergency situation and give a STR debuff to players.

WARRIORS:
HP healing debuff
A fast stun (even if not able for stunlock)
Mythril Tempest can stop Melee LB on Node or clear melee from a chased healer or even push down people from stairs.
Ehehe my favorite skill Holmgang, that is really POWERFUL in PvP when someone try to flee, because if you cas behind a target, he won't even be able to turn and face you for attack you.
Also they can support party with Thrill of War, that if traited is really a good skill and I rarely saw WAR using it for the party and not only for themself.
also they can spam Overpower when caster and healer try to camp on a flag interrupting a lot of cast.

Both the "new" tank role in PvP are fine up to me, I tried them and I really enjoyed it feeling that I was useful anyway for a party.
Also a balanced party composition will make the LB charge faster, and I don't know if you saw how it's ahard to build LB for a B party with 7 DPS and 1 Healer.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

Cool, just wondered how you can discuss other classes or even think you have a full perspective on pvp when you only have WAR/BLM.

No PLDs are bad in pvp regardless, they are easy to deal with and pose no dps threat. Yes they can soak damage, but you can just as easily ignore them. My point is beyond the occasionally buff GLDs dont bring a great deal.

anyways im bored of discussing with a scrub. Enjoy.

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Scrub lmao
hypocritical statement coming from a goldsmith/summoner but sure

players just want to find issue than try to learn to play the actual game and be better that's all (sorry to be a little rude)

Well tanks were decent in WD.
Remember the days of pre cover from plds?
They had to add a tether visual cuz it was just too hard for ppl to guess the cover range.
After tht ppl started to get used to cover etc = pld becoming more useful. Wars just stacked dmg cuz they knew tht dmg > being an un aggro meat shield.
So yea unless they get more in depth about the individual classes, u better get used to the shallow customization in pvp lol.
Tanks r just meaty dps who can stun ppl?
Who knows, they might revamp the design in 3.0.

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Originally Posted by kensatsu

players just want to find issue than try to learn to play the actual game and be better that's all (sorry to be a little rude)

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There's nothing rude about it, it's the truth.