A fix for SMN MP problems

Add a mp steal effect to fester ta-da! :o

60%-70% mp stolen per damage done wouldn't be an obscene amount and would not buff scholars.

This is the most stupid thing I've read in any of the 20 "fix summoner" threads currently on the first page of the forum.

Let's make Energy drain useless for SMN yay!

Just make Fester a trait for Energy Drain. SMN now Festers and Energy Drains 100% of the time against single targets. Broken? probably not.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Just make Fester a trait for Energy Drain. SMN now Festers and Energy Drains 100% of the time against single targets. Broken? probably not.

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And thus SMN has one less action than the other 9 jobs.

How about instead of giving us more useless spell speed. Pet crits give us 5 or so seconds of refresh instead?

I also think Fester should have a crit effect like adlo. Maybe 25% chance to restore a aetherflow stack on crit.

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Originally Posted by Delta041

How about instead of giving us more useless spell speed. Pet crits give us 5 or so seconds of refresh instead?

I also think Fester should have a crit effect like adlo. Maybe 25% chance to restore a aetherflow stack on crit.

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The first idea is decent, though it would need to be 6 since MP ticks are on a 3 second clock. The second one though, wouldn't that just make the MP issues even worse by causing you to use Aetherflow less often?

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Originally Posted by point09micron

The second one though, wouldn't that just make the MP issues even worse by causing you to use Aetherflow less often?

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I was thinking more along the line of using the free aetherflow stack for energy drain. Maybe have a fester crit make the next energy drain not use up an aetherflow stack would be more direct.

Yes, stating it that way makes it more clear, and also a good idea. It would be like the synergy between Sacred Soil and Succor.

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Originally Posted by Aurelinaus

Add a mp steal effect to fester ta-da! :o

60%-70% mp stolen per damage done wouldn't be an obscene amount and would not buff scholars.

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I'm not sure that this is a great idea, since it pretty much removes the need for a SMN to ever cast energy drain. I would prefer something like:

Using fester grants a 50% chance to make the next energy drain cost no aetherflow.

This does a few things:
1) Grants the SMN some additional MP to help solve their MP starvation issues
2) Grants the SMN a very minor single target dps buff (which they need anyways)
3) Does not destroy energy drain
4) Keeps the buffs out of SCH hands. SCH does not need a buff at this time.

easiest would be to just lower energy drains potency to 100, while doubling or even tripling it's mp regen. Rise Fester's potency while all 3 dots are up to 400. now in shorter fights smn will be a bit stronger, while in longer fights it remains to the same potency output as it is right now using all stacks for festers, but still keeping your mp high.


on top of that switch contagion with tri disaster, so garuda is more suited for aoe, control and heavy movement fights, while ifrit is for single target, static fights.

(and lower enkindle to 2min timer, this won't break the job but actually close the gap to blm)

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

easiest would be to just lower energy drains potency to 100, while doubling or even tripling it's mp regen. Rise Fester's potency while all 3 dots are up to 400. now in shorter fights smn will be a bit stronger, while in longer fights it remains to the same potency output as it is right now using all stacks for festers, but still keeping your mp high.


on top of that switch contagion with tri disaster, so garuda is more suited for aoe, control and heavy movement fights, while ifrit is for single target, static fights.

(and lower enkindle to 2min timer, this won't break the job but actually close the gap to blm)

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SCH gets Energy Drain as well, and this would break them entirely. Buffing SMN without changing SCH is extremely hard - for example, they get the pet SS buff as well, so any changes to it would need to take SCH into account as well. (Personally I don't think a few seconds of refresh or whatever would break them, but it still needs to be considered.)

I wonder if balance issues are why they're moving away from classes in the expansion. It's a shame, despite the headaches it causes, I like the idea of split classes. All things considered I think SCH/SMN was done pretty good for a first try.

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Originally Posted by Zorzi

I wonder if balance issues are why they're moving away from classes in the expansion. It's a shame, despite the headaches it causes, I like the idea of split classes. All things considered I think SCH/SMN was done pretty good for a first try.

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SE has mentioned on a few accounts that they were unhappy with the way the ACN class worked out, and that they would not be implementing split classes again in the future. It makes sense though, because base classes severely restrict the ability to make jobs unique from one another.
The only difference between SCH and SMN is 5 spells, that's it. Think how much better the classes could be if they did not have to share ACN.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

in regards to the changes you suggested in post#11

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Unfortunately, I think these changes are a bit too strong.
1)The energy drain change would greatly buff SCH, which does not need any buffing at the moment.
2) the fester potency change would add A LOT of dps to the SMN. I agree that SMNM should get a ST damage buff, but this seems heavy handed. I would have to see the numbers to be certain though.
3) the enkindle timer reduction will likely happen in the future, but probably to 3min
4) swapping contagion off of garuda would likely result in the pet never being used in end game scenarios. Contagion is the only reason that garuda is good at AoE DPS (because contagion+bane=love). Tri-disaster is not useful enough for anyone to ever warrant using garuda in anything but solo content. If Contagion will be removed, then Garuda needs to be reworked to not lose its usefulness completely.

The important factors to consider while brainstorming for ways to buff SMN are these:

1) The buffs can not increase SCH in any way. That class is already very strong.
2) The buffs should affect SMN single target dps mostly. Stay away from buffing Bane or their AoE potential. We already have a class that specializes in AoE
3) The ideal place for SMN single target DPS is about 2-3% ahead of BLM. This would give them the boost they need to be considered in FCoB

Using this list is how I came up with the idea I mentioned earlier in this thread:

Give fester a 50% chance to make the next energy drain cost no aetherflow.
This change would marginally buff SMN single target damage while also helping to resolve some of their MP management issues. Simple and effective

I suggest something like Sublimation from FFXI (and no, I don't want this game to be XI):
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Sublimation
Gradually creates an MP pool while your health slowly drains. Recasting it stops the effect and applies the stored MP to you. It's sort of like the DoT version of Convert, which fits Arcanist's theme.

Or if you want to help Summoner without affecting Scholar, then the Egis are the best way to achieve that. I would suggest that when an Egi de-spawns, a portion of its remaining health is transferred to the Summoner's MP. It wouldn't really be able to be abused under normal circumstances due to Egi summon cast times. Swiftcast would allow you to re-summon your Egi for a quick MP boost.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

I suggest something like Sublimation from FFXI (and no, I don't want this game to be XI):
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Sublimation
Gradually creates an MP pool while your health slowly drains. Recasting it stops the effect and applies the stored MP to you. It's sort of like the DoT version of Convert, which fits Arcanist's theme. I would suggest that when an Egi de-spawns, a portion of its remaining health is transferred to the Summoner's MP. It wouldn't really be able to be abused under normal circumstances due to Egi summon cast times. Swiftcast would allow you to re-summon your Egi for a quick MP boost.

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I like the sublimation idea a lot, however, I would like to see it be usable with all egi's so that we are not forced to use garuda every time we want to recover MP. And the MP boost on summon is a cool idea, but it kind of devalues our combat res because we have to use our swiftcast to get it.

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

I like the sublimation idea a lot, however, I would like to see it be usable with all egi's so that we are not forced to use garuda every time we want to recover MP. And the MP boost on summon is a cool idea, but it kind of devalues our combat res because we have to use our swiftcast to get it.

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I'm not sure I said anything that referred to Garuda being necessary for any of this... Sublimation would be an ability on the Summoner, not the Egi. Maybe I am misunderstanding your response.

As for Swiftcast, tell people to quit being dead so that you can manage your MP :-P.

What about a job action that works like FFXI's Elemental Siphon. It was a summoner ability that drained MP from the pet to the SMN. Pets don't have MP in this FFXIV, but maybe something that drains pet HP to restore player MP, the opposite of Sustain. Or better yet, to give it some opportunity cost, have an ability that resets all the pet's CDs to restore some MP to the player.

I think the big issue is that summoner needs a consistent increase in MP regen and not something that is proc'd or RNG based. Because you are guaranteed to run out of MP; and not being able to DPS because of bad luck is bad indeed.

Easiest fix I think is simply an enhanced energy drain for summoner only with an increased potency and mp refresh in addition to making ruin cost less mana. Its more in line with the way SE commonly buffs thing and wouldn't buff SCH in anyway.

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

SE has mentioned on a few accounts that they were unhappy with the way the ACN class worked out, and that they would not be implementing split classes again in the future.

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I really wonder what this means for the future of SMN and SCH. Is this going to limit their growth in the future? I mean I'm assuming that going forward they aren't going to add any new class abilities and that only new job abilities will be obtained from 51-60. I hope that they comment on this soon.

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Originally Posted by ShiroSteve

Easiest fix I think is simply an enhanced energy drain for summoner only with an increased potency and mp refresh in addition to making ruin cost less mana. Its more in line with the way SE commonly buffs thing and wouldn't buff SCH in anyway.

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Outright replacing a skill with a better version of itself is a really boring way to balance classes. I'd rather see other skills be buffed to be actually useful. Tri-Disaster is a perfect candidate for this. It's too MP expensive for the highly niche utility it provides. I'd like to see it re-purposed into something that restores MP.

What's the argument against using crafted gear with PIE on it again? HP loss for MP gain, some pieces can be a damage increase.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

I'm not sure I said anything that referred to Garuda being necessary for any of this... Sublimation would be an ability on the Summoner, not the Egi. Maybe I am misunderstanding your response.

As for Swiftcast, tell people to quit being dead so that you can manage your MP :-P.

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haha ya i read "gragually" as garuda lol oops

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Originally Posted by ShiroSteve

I think the big issue is that summoner needs a consistent increase in MP regen and not something that is proc'd or RNG based. Because you are guaranteed to run out of MP; and not being able to DPS because of bad luck is bad indeed.

Easiest fix I think is simply an enhanced energy drain for summoner only with an increased potency and mp refresh in addition to making ruin cost less mana. Its more in line with the way SE commonly buffs thing and wouldn't buff SCH in anyway.

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SE has never given passive traits (IE passive abilities that strengthen other abilities) to jobs. All passive traits are part of the class. So if they continue this, you could not buff energy drain for SMN without also buffing it for SCH

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

What's the argument against using crafted gear with PIE on it again? HP loss for MP gain, some pieces can be a damage increase.

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The main argument is just that piety only prolongs the inevitable. The root of the problem is that the MP regeneration over time is not good enough. Piety would only mean that SMN would run out of MP at 5-6 minutes instead of 4-5 minutes. That doesn't matter wsince all FCoB fights are designed to be 10+ minutes long. Also, trading HP for something is not viable in final coil, especially for SMN/BLM due to their already low natural HP pools. All DPS need to have 6k+ health for T13 in order to make surviving AoE damage realistic.

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Originally Posted by Delta041

Outright replacing a skill with a better version of itself is a really boring way to balance classes. I'd rather see other skills be buffed to be actually useful. Tri-Disaster is a perfect candidate for this. It's too MP expensive for the highly niche utility it provides. I'd like to see it re-purposed into something that restores MP.

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Tri-Disaster is definitely a candidate for upgrade; however, it is still useful in its current form, just not very often lol.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

What's the argument against using crafted gear with PIE on it again? HP loss for MP gain, some pieces can be a damage increase.

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I cheaped out on my relic and spent the last 20 points on Piety. got about 140 MP out of it. VIT aside I think the lost of Int from using i90 accessories just isn't worth it. Once we get i110 crafted accessories it might be worth looking into.

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Originally Posted by Delta041

I cheaped out on my relic and spent the last 20 points on Piety. got about 140 MP out of it. VIT aside I think the lost of Int from using i90 accessories just isn't worth it. Once we get i110 crafted accessories it might be worth looking into.

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There's also the left side pieces, belt would be 5 INT/5 VIT for up to 80 MP, hands/head/feet are 7 INT/7 VIT for up to 104 MP (although 96 is more realistic). That's compared to 130 pieces.

People were able to take out coil week 1 in all 110 gear, but it's not viable now to do it in mixed 110/130 gear due to HP concerns?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

People were able to take out coil week 1 in all 110 gear, but it's not viable now to do it in mixed 110/130 gear due to HP concerns?

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i110 and i90 crafted jewelry; one Vitality-melded accessory gives a bigger HP boost than changing from an i110 body/legs to i130. My left side is 2 i120 and 4 i130 with an i135 weapon. I still have to use one i90 crafted accessory for HP on T13; I'm just barely under what's safe for no Dragon Kick without it.

Then dump some piety on the vit accessory, or put it on relic weapon, or use melded pants/belt/whatever piece you don't like and a 2nd vit/pie accessory. 70 Piety will get you an extra 500+ max MP, and 300+MP/minute. That's enough to stretch your MP from 4-5 minutes to 8-10 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Zorzi

SCH gets Energy Drain as well, and this would break them entirely. Buffing SMN without changing SCH is extremely hard - for example, they get the pet SS buff as well, so any changes to it would need to take SCH into account as well. (Personally I don't think a few seconds of refresh or whatever would break them, but it still needs to be considered.)

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I doubt a direct buff to energy drain's mp return would effect sch much at all. right now no sch would use it in raid content to get back a few mp, cause what most ppl would say anyway 'sch has no real mp issues'. they are mostly limited by aetherflow usage.

I posed this in another thread at some point(not like there aren't 4578 SMN threads) but one thing I thought of was to maybe give fester a chance to proc a free energy drain. This would leave SCH unchanged, and if given a high enough chance(I was thinking maybe as high as 50%) would both help a bit with MP and increase DPS slightly. I think there needs to be slightly more done than just that, but it could be a start.

Separate caster gear like all other dps class, drop our spell speed stats and add piety.
Change the effect of Energy Drain from a set number to a return based on how much damage it does.
Add to Spur: 75% of Egi Damage dealt is returned to Summoner as MP.

Would dropping Ruin MP cost by 10-15 help any? It's quite low already, but isn't it your most used spell? I doubt that would have much of an effect on SCH either.

Do pets suffer from the -15% attribute loss at time of summoning from res sickness? If so, are their stats snapshotted with these lowered attributes, persisting until resummoning once res sickness wears off, or do pet's lose the debuff too overtime like their master?

I think SMN should have a trait which has a refresh affect.

I'd say 1/4 or 1/3 the strength of SoS at 3 stacks and you stack/maintain it by having Bio, Miasma, BioII active on a target, it also forces SMNs to maintain DOTs.
-Bio provides 1 stack etc maxing at 3 regardless how many are affective

Yes I know this would affect SCH as well but more MP to a class that has no MP issues is hardly game breaking

They shouldn't as that would effectively be no different to a food buff or pot.