The Balance

A balance, a scale, the never ending, ever changing line of complaints, nerfs, and buffs. A line so thin and complex that if ever blatantly crossed, it can spell the end of an era for even the greatest mmo games. Something that we as players, Game Companies, General Managers, Graphics designers, Producers and Gods of MMOs know all to well.

Yes, we are talking about what is fair what is going to far, why we cry out OVERPOWERED, weaksauce, or useless and even the in between "meh".

Bias, yes. This word describes a great enemy. And it is a tricky one, creeping up on the unsuspecting. Digging deep into our viewpoints and ideals as to what Roles and Classes should or shouldn't be, what their limitations are. Or how far they can reach to the heavens before crashing back down to the shadows and abysmal depths of complaints and despair.

Our bias views towards are own shinning stars, keep other classes from sharing the same night sky. We are stealing their essence and breaking their body's. We must change this. But, it will take all of us, be sure of this.

But this is not the end, we can defeat this fiend. We can overcome, through trial and error. Through the forging and reforging of swords, ideas not limited to one set class, job or role. By looking into the tantamount abilities and Grand design of all classes, of all roles! This word, the word that can counteract this obstacle is.

Uniqueness

This is one of the driving reasons we play any class at all. It is a force to be reckoned with, especially against our nemesis Bias. With this we can look at ideas that make classes special, what sets them apart. Why one is suited more than another, NAY i say! It defines what one class can CONTRIBUTE to the party! That is Uniqueness.

While we can use this to define and describe the strengths of classes, it works both ways. Weakness, yes i said weakness. This word should be etched in the very being of your class. Carved in the very soul of roles across Eorzea! Scream "We need weakness!" Give other classes a reason to be! A reason to exist!

We want to be able to stretch out our hands to fellow comrades, in our greatest battles and reassure them "Do not fear, we will lend you strength, as you have given purpose." We want to walk with our heads held high and march gloriously towards Titan and shout "It is our given differences Titan, that will crush you very heart!"

So i say, and we should say. "Define our strengths give us weakness, make us unique."

Bring us together, so we might share in our triumphs and revel in our differences. This, my friends is Eorzea...

(I totes was listening to Mitis and Mahi when i was writing this :D)

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Originally Posted by Picchu

Posts like this is why the devs don't listen to the English forums.

On topic, I'd rather not get more unique than everyone already is. That opens up kicking and class discrimination because a person is playing a certain job that isn't "efficient" or "viable" enough for whatever that piece of content is, and one of the reasons I like this game is because I DON'T see that.

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I wasn't looking to segregate the classes but only to hope that they could have roles that would support each other. Hopefully not to the point where 4 BLM or 4 SMN in 8 man parties are not accepted. But that first part of your comment was a little rude.

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Originally Posted by rblyell

Like all the jobs have unique play styles the fact that you, or anyone, does’t see that means you haven't really tried. Focus on learning the benefits of your character and gearing it out running some end game stuff and you will see what I mean. Until then your argument is basely.

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k thanks for you input.

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Originally Posted by Suggestion

Oh in case everyone was wondering why my topic post is so cheesy, its because i wanted people to read it not just the comments below and such.

And on a side note, My post was to convey the idea that when you edit one class we should look to see how it affects another and such. Not to fear change but look at it from a bigger picture. I know that sounds arrogant. SE thinks about it all the time I'm sure ^^

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In FF11 it wasn't like that, people found ways to become stronger than others, it was almost competitive who can do the best damage.

Of course if people found ways to exploit the damage they would patch it, though people always found ways to boost their damage and nobody was ever the same cause everyone had their own play styles.

Here in FFXIV its all the same, gear is the same, weapons do not out damage other weapons by a lot its balanced out so its not unfair.

nothing to set others apart from each other.

I read it.

Through all the flowery prose I think I see your point. This game, while very nicely balanced, can be quite bland. Really it's bland because the developers went to the trouble of devising systems to ensure that classes were all more or less equal in their output and then they basically give everyone equal access to equal equipment.

In FFXI and many other MMOs that I'm less experienced with, certain BiS items would come from the absolute most difficult content, while others were crafted, came from older content, or even quested and several levels below the level cap. In this game, everyone's best equipment is the newest tome/raid equipment (with so few exceptions it's not really worth mentioning and more of a fluke) and everyone has exactly the same skills and abilities. There's basically the optimal setup (all appropriate CC skills and best equipment) and everyone else working toward the optimal setup. No branching or differentiation at all.

I hope that they try to remedy this in Heavensward a bit, but it would be dangerous to be overly ambitious considering the balance they have currently. Trying to add more freedom often results in simply creating several 'wrong' ways of playing that eventually nobody will use.

I like that you used the word "freedom" Nutz..which is exactly what this game has none of.

Its because of the Tank/Heal/DPS setup that this game enforces so harshly that all the jobs are expected to perform the same. If you can break away from it then you allow yourself to make classes/jobs more varied (such as having true support roles instead of lolbrd).
Also, in my opinion, a strong PvP system helps with balancing much more than people believe it to.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

In FF11 it wasn't like that, people found ways to become stronger than others, it was almost competitive who can do the best damage.

Of course if people found ways to exploit the damage they would patch it, though people always found ways to boost their damage and nobody was ever the same cause everyone had their own play styles.

Here in FFXIV its all the same, gear is the same, weapons do not out damage other weapons by a lot its balanced out so its not unfair.

nothing to set others apart from each other.

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Whereas in FFXIV all jobs are viable for content as opposed to FFXI due to the system they set up this way being much easier to balance, again, compared to FFXI. I prefer it continues like this than it ending up like FFXI where so many jobs where not wanted.

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Originally Posted by KitanaiKoneko

Its because of the Tank/Heal/DPS setup that this game enforces so harshly that all the jobs are expected to perform the same. If you can break away from it then you allow yourself to make classes/jobs more varied (such as having true support roles instead of lolbrd).

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They could still use the archetype setup and allow us to have freedom to build/gear our jobs to do more extra duties outside of that role. Take EQ2 for example, tanks were able to dish out more damage than the dedicated dps jobs if they were geared using the right gear and skill trees to augment their dps. I'm sure they could allow the same thing to be done here if they'd just stop riding WoW's coattails and start by injecting some more unique gear and horizontal progression. Giving more choice to the players to pick and choose abilities would be a decent start as well. Stop babying us and allow us to have some say over how our character grows.

Asymmetric balancing seems to be getting more and more popular. I wonder how they could approach it here.

I'm just hoping to inspire peoples desire to have there classes more defined and feel needed. And that players who play their class well feel a better sense of accomplishment. But not have have such a huge gap that casual players feel useless because, that is most of the player base id assume.

But do continue i like reading opinions :D

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Originally Posted by KitanaiKoneko

Also, in my opinion, a strong PvP system helps with balancing much more than people believe it to.

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No, no no no no just no.

For reference check how GW2 ended up. Balancing PVE via PVP is one of worst designer ideas in MMOs of ALL TIME. In MMORPG balancing those two perfectly is just not possible. I think SE realizes that and this is why we have PVP skills for PVP only. Also why PVP in this game is bit on sidelines (compared to PVE).

Posts like this is why the devs don't listen to the English forums.

On topic, I'd rather not get more unique than everyone already is. That opens up kicking and class discrimination because a person is playing a certain job that isn't "efficient" or "viable" enough for whatever that piece of content is, and one of the reasons I like this game is because I DON'T see that.

I'll accept a cry for more unique as soon as BRD's 'unique' ability to make melee DPS last more than 4 minutes stops dominating the raid comp meta.

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Originally Posted by Aselia_Xenoheart

No, no no no no just no...snip.... I think SE realizes that and this is why we have PVP skills for PVP only. Also why PVP in this game is bit on sidelines (compared to PVE).

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That's not what they said, at all.

Games that have a well developed pvp system integrated into a primarily pve game tend to have access to testing and player experiments. For instance, if you could duel in FF ARR baselines for all kinds of things could be researched, developed, and experimented with.

I'm pretty sure that's all they meant.

its trail and error people... you open up the doors to complete freedom and customization. then watch what the people do and see what becomes the normal/most powerful/most sought after. THEN instead of nerfing those to be on par with the jobs no one wants to play... you look at how you can make up for the short falls of those weak jobs. AND YOU DONT DO THAT BY INCREASING THEIR POTENCY. you actually make changes to the abilities and make them more fun to play. like giving drg the chance to dodge while jumping (like ever freakin other FF in history) or giving the PLD the ability to raise in battle or actually push out decent heals while another healer is being raised (to take the safe slow route to ensure victory)... or making the war dps respectable enough for a 1 tank situation be a balls to the walls crazy kill fest that could just as easily find defeat (going the NOT safe route lol)

Just like all of the Final Fantasy's in the past... having a particular job in your team gives you both benefits and drawbacks (like using all drgs with dragon lances to defeat neo-shinryu or not being stupid and brining blms to the Omega MKII fight in FF3) the devs just needs to figure out how to have BOTH the benefits and drawbacks not outweigh each other in awesomeness.

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Originally Posted by Picchu

Posts like this is why the devs don't listen to the English forums.

On topic, I'd rather not get more unique than everyone already is. That opens up kicking and class discrimination because a person is playing a certain job that isn't "efficient" or "viable" enough for whatever that piece of content is, and one of the reasons I like this game is because I DON'T see that.

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I wasn't looking to segregate the classes but only to hope that they could have roles that would support each other. Hopefully not to the point where 4 BLM or 4 SMN in 8 man parties are not accepted. But that first part of your comment was a little rude.

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Originally Posted by Picchu

Posts like this is why the devs don't listen to the English forums.

On topic, I'd rather not get more unique than everyone already is. That opens up kicking and class discrimination because a person is playing a certain job that isn't "efficient" or "viable" enough for whatever that piece of content is, and one of the reasons I like this game is because I DON'T see that.

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This is already happening, and i don't think a well balanced freedom to build our characters would make it worse, of course if you come here with cliche fears nothing will be done, perhaps we should remove gear, if ones have better gear than others this could cause segregation, as you see being scared only makes the game less fun by limiting it.

Ugh, this topic is terrible.

Uniqueness is a lie, this day in gaming it is far to common to simply look up the math and experiments that someone else performed and optimize based on those results just like every other player.

The only thing you get from overly complicated and elaborate systems is a development team struggling to fill the needs of the players crying that they are mathematically inferior to fellow counterparts.

Just call for more elaborate content that stress different play styles to succeed at, but please don't request for continuous character modifications forced upon all players to constantly (and unnecessarily) review how to play the game.

Over Balance leads to bland classes where everything is more or less the same 1,2,3 + 4,5,6 spam over and over and over with different animations.

Balance is very important or it leads to classes that no one wants, but extreme overbalancing can lead to over simplification which is horrible. Aka the removal of the elemental wheel, mob resistances, breaking weapons and part of the mobs and such. These were all good things in 1.X that should of been brought over. Being unique and more complex especially at endgame I see as more important then perfect balance. Sure maby X class if better in this 1 encounter... who cares it is 1 encounter if it leads to a more rich endgame.

Only thing perfect balance is important in is PvP.

I'm not on board with creating content just to create content. I think that will eventually stagnate. I would think that expanding on ideas already in play would also be beneficial to a game to keep it interesting. And i came here from GW2 and they are still focusing on pumping out new story instead of fine tuning their already existing content (which of course is something SE is doing a much better job with). But hey i don't know how to run a game ^^

Oh in case everyone was wondering why my topic post is so cheesy, its because i wanted people to read it not just the comments below and such.

And on a side note, My post was to convey the idea that when you edit one class we should look to see how it affects another and such. Not to fear change but look at it from a bigger picture. I know that sounds arrogant. SE thinks about it all the time I'm sure ^^

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Originally Posted by Suggestion

I'm just hoping to inspire peoples desire to have there classes more defined and feel needed. And that players who play their class well feel a better sense of accomplishment. But not have have such a huge gap that casual players feel useless because, that is most of the player base id assume.

But do continue i like reading opinions :D

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Like all the jobs have unique play styles the fact that you, or anyone, does’t see that means you haven't really tried. Focus on learning the benefits of your character and gearing it out running some end game stuff and you will see what I mean. Until then your argument is basely.

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Originally Posted by rblyell

Like all the jobs have unique play styles the fact that you, or anyone, does’t see that means you haven't really tried. Focus on learning the benefits of your character and gearing it out running some end game stuff and you will see what I mean. Until then your argument is basely.

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k thanks for you input.

This is just an example but i have a friend who played Bard religiously and now he feels that bard is unnecessary. This is HIS opinion doesn't make it anymore right than another persons. One of his reasons is the fact that he doesn't get to use his songs that much. His raid group is well versed in managing there tp and mp. Along with the fact that most endgame content is played by better than the average players who are also good and managing theirs.

And i main SMN, I love it. And we all know about SMN mp issues, but srs if you can just get the hang of it you really wont have that many problems to be honest. But i take this as a challenge and be sure to conserve my mp while outputting the most damage. But hey, im not perfect. So everyone once in awhile i wish i could get a song. And boom there is suddenly a reason to use songs on bard :D

Lame example i know :D

I think there should be more of these examples so that classes can interact better and have their unique skills used.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Whereas in FFXIV all jobs are viable for content as opposed to FFXI due to the system they set up this way being much easier to balance, again, compared to FFXI. I prefer it continues like this than it ending up like FFXI where so many jobs where not wanted.

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I think what you mean to say is that FFXIV is over designed and forces every job to fit into a role and to be in demand. FFXI on the other hand left most of its challenges up to the player and emergent gameplay. FFXIV would definitely benefit from allowing players to be more creative with jobs center combat challenges around that rather than orange circles and tank swapping.

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Originally Posted by Stihllodeing

That's not what they said, at all.

Games that have a well developed pvp system integrated into a primarily pve game tend to have access to testing and player experiments. For instance, if you could duel in FF ARR baselines for all kinds of things could be researched, developed, and experimented with.

I'm pretty sure that's all they meant.

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For PvP and PvE to work flawlessly it needs to be built from the ground with that in mind, balance the classes against each other in PvP then balance the mobs to the players. Also the greater variety in builds etc makes it more difficult to maintain balance due to the nicreased number of variables.

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Originally Posted by Catsby

I think what you mean to say is that FFXIV is over designed and forces every job to fit into a role and to be in demand. FFXI on the other hand left most of its challenges up to the player and emergent gameplay. FFXIV would definitely benefit from allowing players to be more creative with jobs center combat challenges around that rather than orange circles and tank swapping.

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That "emergent gameplay" you speak of was players finding optimum party set up for certain content and everyone else following along with it.

Interestingly, one of the first things Yoshi did when he took over in 1.0 was class diversity. Giving classes some unique feeling and individuality!
Back then there were no differences between a Conjurer and a Thaumaturge. Both had sufficient nukes, both had sufficient heals. Doesn't that sound crazy?
Why would you not have one tank and 7 casters?

It was giving each class a purpose that helped to interest people in each of the classes we have today!

I'm very much for it, people struggle to choose what to main between Paladin and Warrior currently because they both essentially get the same job done. You can push and shove about it all day!
Paladin has Stoneskin, Warrior has self heals, Paladin has shield blocks, Warrior has Inner Beast but at the end of the day, the jobs do the same thing and interact with other players the same way.

Surely it is the way that Bard is defined that we don't have parties lined with them instead of other DPS, especially with the way it interacts with Dragoon! Adding unique qualities to classes does not mean they will be stacked.

More definition can be dangerous but I believe the game has space for more.

Ugh Fadigre I'm trying really hard but i can't stop reading your post without a sarcastic voice in my head >.<