Ironworks gear (all left side only)
Total parry: 133
Total acc: 141
And Im talking about the i120 stuff here, not the upgraded i130. This is more parry than you can meld on the i110 crafted Wootz gear. Then there is the obvious bonus in higher vit, acc and (mag)defense that it provides over the crafted gear and the leftover crit and det.
So obviously we are missing something here. Crafted gear is usually way better than i120, some even compete for BiSi130 set ups.
My theory is that DEX has become viable, for a long time now. But the community just hasnt caught up with it yet. Now before people go apeshit and start with the "but but but crit, det"...let me assure you that crit and det are c tier stats for tanks, moreso for pld. If you want dps increase, you go strength, you don't go with c tiers.
First of all, the max caps for crit and det on the wootz gear are too high for you to ever reach, especially considering you also have to try maxing parry and some acc aswell. Second of all, no amount of crit and det can ever match 60+ strength which is a PRIMARY stat.
So this leaves the question. What do we meld on the Wootz to make it i125+. Well, strength is obviously out of the question. But DEX is a full option.
Now I know what people will say. Everytime this debate comes up, people go apeshit over it claiming how DEX is useless and how it doesnt increase effective health blah blah blah.
The problem with this is several.
1) the most obvious one that the sceptics base this claim on http://valk.dancing-mad.com/tables/block-and-parry/
This is downright the most stupid argument always used against DEX believers. The results from that website are 18 months old, based on i70 gear when i70 was the highest ilevel in game and titan hardmode was the hardest dungeon in game. We all know stat weights change with every patch. But somehow, improperly tested results based on extremely irrelevant gear from 18 months ago, is still held as the single best proof that DEX is useless. To say that this stuff is outdated is putting it softly.
2) melding DEX is not new. It has been done. Ive done it. And others have done it.
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...hest_question/
That is actual testing of DEX on t13. As usual, sceptics will try to argue how DEX is useless based on ancient outdated data that itself is based on i70 gear (from the website valkdancing). The problem is that there is no actual real properly tests done with real relevant gear using high DEX. So everytime this debate comes up, it is just theorycrafting.
However, just from the crafting perspective, I know one thing. Penta melded crafted gear has never been worse than any soldiery/poetics and it isnt now. The fact that ironworks of fending gives more parry, acc and vit than crafted gear doesn't make it better than crafted gear. It means we are missing something. And I think the answer is DEX.
Revisiting DEX
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12-21-2014, 07:50 PMTruedragonRevisiting DEX
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12-22-2014, 01:12 AMSirTaint
No it's bad.
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12-22-2014, 01:23 AMJudge_Xero
World firsts on FCOB used DEX melded i110 crafted gear. I think it gave around 44% Block Rate with the HA Shield.
But they were looking for every ounce of mitigation possible with the given gear.
I think it gave 2% mitigation overall vs not using it. -
12-22-2014, 01:32 AMSirTaintWorld 3rd PLD melded DEX and stated it was for extreme progression and he wouldn't use it otherwise. Obviously he understands its value.Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge_Xero
World first and second did not use DEX builds.
It takes 40 points of dex to increase block/parry rate by 1%. And most consider parry stacking to be useless beyond progression. -
12-22-2014, 04:49 AMRuddi
Hi my WAR is AVG 109.
I got the 6 pieces of woots, fully overmelded. Total on set is parry 555 critical hit rate 512. The parry come in nice and my WAR parry allot, the critical really helps on holding enmity, if I put on all STR I can easy hold enmity from a AVG 120 WAR (VIT) but it is hard if I go all VIT. -
12-23-2014, 09:34 PMTruedragonThats your opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
Thing is, you can quite easily get 40 DEX. Just the wootz cuirass alone probably. The cap for parry, acc, crit is 41 on the chest alone which means DEX shouldnt be too far off.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
Blocking and parry are 2 different things. Increasing blocking AND parry by 1% means they both go up. Blocking is also stronger than parry and is checked first. If they both went up by 1%, then that means in total, it is 2% up. And only for 40 DEX points? You can probably meld 35 just from the chest.
Thing is, if you also meld DEX on your novus/ nexus, you can quite easily get massive boost. The alternative as I said before is using CRIT or DET, which are C tier stats for Paladin. If 40 points split between CRIT and DET will give you 2% extra dps (a big assumption) than as a paladin you went from 100-150 dps to 102-153 dps. That is hilarious by any measurement. As I said before, if you want to increase pld and war dps, you go with strength, you dont go with C tier stats like CRIT and DET. A warrior wielding full strength can do 300 dps which is quite nice. But do keep in mind that monk, drgs and ninja's can do over 550 dps now. A paladin wouldnt even get 200 dps even with full strength gear most likely, let alone a NON strength but with CRIT and DET build. Thats a paper tiger build.
People often use the claim that it makes the tank "hold hate easier". Problem with that assumption is that you have trouble holding hate in the first place. Paladin hate meter scales extremely well and gets increased every so often patch. That 2 dps increase is what you are talking about going DET and CRIT while sacrificing VIT, DEF and MAG DEF. That is a hilarious trade off. If you trade off against VIT, it has to be parry and blocking. -
12-23-2014, 09:49 PMReynhartIt's totally not how you calculate probabilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Truedragon
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12-23-2014, 09:52 PMTruedragonUnderstood. I just simplified it by adding it both up. I know it is less than 2% if both blocking and parry goes up by 1% which is probably an error of his account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
However, if 40 points of DEX increases both blocking and parry, than it is not as bad as he makes it out to be. 40 points is pretty easily gotten.
The chest and pants probably around 30~35. So getting 80 from the whole set isn't that hard. And if you are really freaky and want to experiment, add another 40 from the novus. -
12-23-2014, 10:11 PMTruedragon
You know what I think. I think it might actually work.
That is IF 40 DEX increases your blocking by 1% (and possibly parry aswell). And if you get 120+, thats 3% more blocking. Now if both blocking and parry goes up by that amount, this means a total mitigation of 5.91% which by itself is already pretty huge. But what Im more excited about, is that effectively it might be worth more than even 6%. Because blocking is stronger than parrying and the health loss from blocking is lower than parrying.
So you having 5.91 mitigation total split between blocking and parrying is gonna save more health than someone with 6% total mitigation but from parrying only.
Now for the trade off. What are we missing? We are missing 27 VIT from using penta melded gear vs ironworks (i120). That is only 392 hp. -
12-23-2014, 10:46 PMReynhartYou can easily test the impact of DEX.Quote:
Originally Posted by Truedragon
Take your MNK, equip gear pre 2.4 and look at what a high STR and DEX do to your mitigation via parry.
This could indeed be interesting. -
12-23-2014, 11:17 PMPWilsonWell, I agree with you there!Quote:
Originally Posted by Truedragon
But I do likes me some theorycrafting, too... -
12-24-2014, 12:23 AMSpookyGhost
Stacking any stat other than your 2 main stats (VIT and STR) will result in either a minimal increase in mitigation or a minimal increase in DPS output. Both are completely inconsequential outside of min/max world first attempts. You guys are really putting too much thought into a game that has been simplified to it's absolute bare bones. The tank that melded full DEX isn't really any better off than the tank that melded full Det, and vice versa.
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12-24-2014, 12:42 AMAlistaire
Takes about 2.6 DEX to equal 1 parry. Takes about 15 parry to equal 1% rate. And parry is a bad tank stat as is. The defense boost from 120 alone makes this a very bad idea.
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12-24-2014, 05:35 AMTruedragon1) I would like to see a source to back up your claims.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistaire
2) Even if we - for now - assume that your claims are correct, it seems that people speak without getting get their facts straight. We do not meld DEX for parry. The bonus DEX gives to parry is exactly that, a bonus. We meld DEX for blocking. Blocking and parry are 2 different things. Get your facts straight before talking.
3) If we assume you are correct that 15 parry = approximately 1% parry, then how the hell does that make it a bad stat. If you could meld 120 parry which we cant, but lets say we could, that is an 8% parry rate. How on earth is 8% parry rate compared to a loss of 392 hp a bad trade off?
Do you people even know what you are talking about. -
12-24-2014, 06:02 AMSirTaintQuote:
Originally Posted by Truedragon
How about prove him wrong?
I have parry closer to 13 points = 1% and DEX is 40 points per %.
Neither are saving you beyond world first turn4 progression scenarios.
If you take 140 hits in a turn, 120+ of those are auto attacks which are not concerning to you or your healers. The other 20 can't be blocked/parried or you'll have a CD ready for them.
Take 13 for example. A good DPS group will see 4-5 Flattens (tank killer moves) and 2 death sentences. You'll have CDs up for all of them. The rest of the fight doesn't need CDs or can't be blocked/parried.
Turn 12 I get hit around 120 times. Maybe 4 Revelations on me and 4 on the OT? The bennus hit hard but nothing a minor CD can't handle.
Turn 11 I'm in sword oath 50% of the fight, besides head its not a big damage fight.
Turn 10 I could probably do in full STR gear instead of i90 with proper CD usage. I know some tanks Sword oath between Rips. -
12-24-2014, 06:16 AMTruedragonWell I cannot prove him wrong since most of the data are either obsolete or not tested. Just look for instance at this thread. The two of you, basically saying the same thing, but with completely different values.Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTaint
And look at something like valking mad which is based on data obtained from like 18 months ago from i70 gear when we all know that stats weight change with each patch.
We cannot meld 120 parry even if we wanted to. The point I am making however is that we can actually meld 120 DEX. And Im looking at the alternatives which is 1) parry, 2) c tier stat crit, and 3) c tier stat det. We cannot meld 120 crit or det anyway, and the boost from these c tier stats are so miniscule that we can basically write it off as insignificant. However, tests on DEX does not exist. -
12-24-2014, 09:11 AMEllatrix
Melding DEX on tanks is about as useful as melding Parry on BLM or wearing DEX accessories on DRG 'because it has crit and det!!'.
Just. Stop. -
12-24-2014, 11:16 PMAlistaireWell, it's various sources from being interested in the possibility myself, as a tank and as a crafter, mostly from reddit. http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...yo/parry_stat/ was the first I could find just glancing thru things, I'll admit I have a low need to satisfy people like you so I don't really feel like going thru all the research I looked into.Quote:
Originally Posted by Truedragon
And yes DEX affects block rates as well, because I didn't mention that part I don't have my facts straight? lol Anyway, it had slipped my mind to mention it because it's as little an impact as the parry rate increase.
And parry and block rate boosts are bad because the content is such that you cannot rely on them. They do not reliably increase your eHP. And you sound like someone who doesn't even know what that is, go google it. "Do you people even know what you are talking about." Thanks, was a good laugh reading that. -
12-25-2014, 12:46 AMGangalooThis isn't true at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellatrix
What is true is that DEX melding being argued over after the first week of content release is pointless. The stat boost on ilvl 120 gear and above far out weigh any benefit you get from Dex melds and parry stacking.
Also, during the first week of progression, a tank deciding to Dex meld is really dependent on group composition. For my group, we were running 2x BRD which is inferior to 2x MNK for fights like T13. Right off the bat you're suffering from a lower DPS comp despite being able to double battle voice foes your BLM.
My group really had 2 options with its current gear level and composition. Try to smooth out tank damage as much as possible to make it less spikey so our SCH can full time DPS in P1 and P2, or be presented with a situation where we didn't have the DPS to meet the enrage timer. Putting DPS stats into the PLD gear would produce a very nominal increase at best that was far out weighed by allowing the SCH to DPS instead of forcing him to come out of Clerics and heal.
Dex melding + parry rate has very little to do with increasing tank eHP and lowering average damage taken over time. It has more to do with attempting to minimize tank spike damage as much as possible.
Let's be real here... when you're in full i110 gear and didn't get a single FCoB tank drop (or healer loot for that matter), 2k auto attacks from Bahamut are nothing to scoff at.
I'll restate though, melding Dex after first week progression is completely pointless. 120 and 130 gear far out shines Dex melds, and it's far more beneficial go to full tank DPS. Especially when your healer gets a new weapon. -
12-25-2014, 05:18 AMTruedragonYoure telling me I dont know what Im talking about but youre posting hearsay from over a year ago. That is as useless as the stuff I just washed down the toilet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alistaire
Seriously, I need facts. That means math. Not your opinion. If you put DEX on something, you do it for the block rate. Not for the parry rate. The parry rate has its own materia called parrying.