[Helper System]Just What We Needed, Nothing That We Wanted

* If there are one to four players in your party replaying a turn, only a single treasure coffer will appear.

This needs adjusting to allow at least 1 'helper' in coil without penalty or else the system is just DOA. I fail to see how penalizing a party for trying to learn a fight by having an experienced vet come in 'helps' anything. I was ready to abandon my alt from gearing up to help our fledgling coil groups but it seems that was just the dream.

Please SE, re-evaluate this so I can help people on my main.

Yeah that seems incredibly excessive, it seems like you're punishing newbies for being new more than anything, it's already established that the veteran can't even get anything so it's not like they're double dipping. If anything it should be something like 3-5 1 Chest, 6-7 None, to prevent people selling runs for loot, but to let people have a half pre made run newbies through.

I was thinking the same. So, if one single person helps them, and they win... they get 1 chest only? .-. How is that even fair?!

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Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

I was thinking the same. So, if one single person helps them, and they win... they get 1 chest only? .-. How is that even fair?!

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I understand their logic. If they didn't, any time you added one person who cleared it, you suddenly not only have help of someone who cleared it, but ALSO better drop rates than everyone else.

So your better off having half the group having got through it.

That's the new cost of learning. This is on par with what I assumed they were doing.

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Originally Posted by Jodou

* If there are one to four players in your party replaying a turn, only a single treasure coffer will appear.

This needs adjusting to allow at least 1 'helper' in coil without penalty or else the system is just DOA. I fail to see how penalizing a party for trying to learn a fight by having an experienced vet come in 'helps' anything. I was ready to abandon my alt from gearing up to help our fledgling coil groups but it seems that was just the dream.

Please SE, re-evaluate this so I can help people on my main.

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one player = no penalty
two to four players = 1 chest
five to seven = no chest

I agree that you need to have one person max before you start taking away loot. With they way it currently is I see no reason to bring in someone who has cleared a turn since you literally penalize us by reducing our odds at loot by 50%.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

I agree that you need to have one person max before you start taking away loot. With they way it currently is I see no reason to bring in someone who has cleared a turn since you literally penalize us by reducing our odds at loot by 50%.

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My biggest concern in all this is WHICH chest goes poof? Is it random? Is it the one with carboncoat/twine?

This needed much better explanation. . .

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Originally Posted by Marxam

one player = no penalty
two to four players = 1 chest
five to seven = no chest

I agree that you need to have one person max before you start taking away loot. With they way it currently is I see no reason to bring in someone who has cleared a turn since you literally penalize us by reducing our odds at loot by 50%.

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They are complaining that you get the penalty the moment you have 1 extra person... unless your suggesting it tweaked to your statement.

But then again, it goes back to... why should one group have better odds than another for drops? 7 people for 2 chests is better odds than 8.

There's really no reason to use this system unless you have half the group being veterans (which is typically how you'd do clear stuff for other content anyhow), or if you were trying to get your win at the last minute and needed to get a ringer.

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Originally Posted by Jodou

My biggest concern in all this is WHICH chest goes poof? Is it random? Is it the one with carboncoat/twine?

This needed much better explanation. . .

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I think one chests holds 1 armor piece + tomestone and the other one holds 1 armor piece + oil. (Yeah, I still call them like that). I also think any of these two can pop...

Just thought of another reason this needs to be addressed: all too often we've had one of our core raiders have to cancel that night, which sends our raid scrambling to fill the slot. Under this system, our options are lose a chest or lose a night of raiding.

Terrible compromise. : \

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Originally Posted by Teppie

it seems like you're punishing newbies for being new more than anything

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Just that, nothing to add here...
Fighting the RNG is already bad enough and now falling behind even more just because getting some "help"?

We have 2 Situations:
a) FC friends coming to help
b) Randoms coming to help

While SE fears too much about first point, with the fight against RNG they force us to only group with friends! I do not see any reason to call for "helpers" because strategy is well known and "one" alone does not help much to survive onshots, "one" alone can not win a coil fight... I will tell you: many groups will write (please not finished this week) in partyfinder!

As long as there is a warning when you zone in that alerts you to how many chests will drop things should be fine.

The 1 to 4 = -1 chest bit is to prevent one-man static jumping from being viable while still rewarding those that help and those getting their first clear for the week with assistance. 5 to 8 = zero is to prevent carries/carriers from farming gear.

A normal "fresh" 8 man static/party finder pug is still the best way to do if you want to gear up.

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Originally Posted by Steady

There's really no reason to use this system unless you have half the group being veterans (which is typically how you'd do clear stuff for other content anyhow), or if you were trying to get your win at the last minute and needed to get a ringer.

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Which is why this system was created the way it was.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

As long as there is a warning when you zone in that alerts you to how many chests will drop things should be fine.

The 1 to 4 = -1 chest bit is to prevent one-man static jumping from being viable while still rewarding those that help and those getting their first clear for the week with assistance. 5 to 8 = zero is to prevent carries/carriers from farming gear.

A normal "fresh" 8 man static/party finder pug is still the best way to do if you want to gear up.



Which is why this system was created the way it was.

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I smell many GM tickets because searching for 1 more player and a "hopping player" joins in. How can you know he finished it this week?
First: as said above - one more does not guarantee a win and it only works on FC hopping to abuse the lootsystem
Secund: there are better ways to aim for hopping abuse if they liked to protect the "weekly loot"

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

I smell many GM tickets because searching for 1 more player and a "hoping player" joins in. How can you know he finished it this week?
First: as said above - one more does not guarantee a win and it only works on FC hopping to abuse the lootsystem
Secund: there are better waiys to aim for hoping abuse if they liked to protect the "weekly loot"

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Which is why there will be a alerts along the lines of "Due to including between 1 and 4 members who have all ready cleared one less chest will be rewarded to upon completion." and "Due to including between 5 and 8 members who have all ready cleared no chests will be rewarded to upon completion." Just as there is an alert for when someone new is attempting a duty.

If you zone in and get an alert that you were not expecting you have reason to quit the duty and kick out the offending party.

Haha here it is, despite all the people saying that they don't care about loot they just want to see the story, when SE actually does this here are the people who actually want loot after all. Is it the same people or are people just being dishonest about how badly they want to get carried?

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

I smell many GM tickets because searching for 1 more player and a "hopping player" joins in. How can you know he finished it this week?

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Try reading the patch notes.

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Prior to entering the Final Coil of Bahamut, a dialog prompt will indicate both the number of players in your party who have completed the turn, and the number of treasure coffers available upon completion.

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Originally Posted by Yukiko

I smell many GM tickets because searching for 1 more player and a "hopping player" joins in.

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Have a day work in a support center or helpdesk center and you know what i mean, just warned you :)

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Haha here it is, despite all the people saying that they don't care about loot they just want to see the story, when SE actually does this here are the people who actually want loot after all. Is it the same people or are people just being dishonest about how badly they want to get carried?

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And the mask comes off! They just want more loots and don't care that they can play with their friends and fc at all!

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Originally Posted by Namasu

And the mask comes off! They just want more loots and don't care that they can play with their friends and fc at all!

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Well obviously because this system lets them do that so I don't know what the problem is? If you have a problem with this you care more about loot than most complaints let on.

One thing is I'd love to help people this way. Other thing is if it means they lose an extra chest I'd then rather not. I mean you can't get loot either way if you got your clear. I think 1 = 2 chest; 2-4 = 1 chest and 5+=0 chest would be fine. 5+ stops loot selling, 2-4 can mean helping the 4-6 people in your FC that want to do it but can't find a group and 1 can be I cleared it with my static and that other static is looking for someone to do it this week because their other person is busy or whatever else.

This is pretty dumb. Because once the members of the party clears the turn, they are locked out of the loot for that turn till next week. So only 1 person out of the 7 others (excluding the 1 vet) get an item.. Bah did they even think to ask the community before implementing this? Tired of these changes that come out of the blue.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Well obviously because this system lets them do that so I don't know what the problem is? If you have a problem with this you care more about loot than most complaints let on.

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Because bringing a SINGLE person equals the same impact as 2 or 4 so the penalty is justified right? One person can totally carry entire FCOB oh wait...
So me trying to say help the other static in FC royally screws 7 other people. Food for thought if youd want to carry then bring 4 people experienced with clear to turn with 4 others who havent cleared this way you get better chances for 4 people and possiblity of kill since penalty is about same lol.

The only situation this system has any potential use if your group gets screwed up with schedule and cannot raid anymore in a week lockout cycle then youd consider brining replacements and try salvage something out of it and that doesnt happen that often.

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Originally Posted by Vagdal

Because bringing a SINGLE person equals the same impact as 2 or 4 so the penalty is justified right? One person can totally carry entire FCOB oh wait...
So me trying to say help the other static in FC royally screws 7 other people. Food for thought if youd want to carry then bring 4 people experienced with clear to turn with 4 others who havent cleared this way you get better chances for 4 people and possiblity of kill since penalty is about same lol.

The only situation this system has any potential use if your group gets screwed up with schedule and cannot raid anymore in a week lockout cycle then youd consider brining replacements and try salvage something out of it and that doesnt happen that often.

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This is for people who wanted to see the story and practice it, not for you.

I have a question: if we take some person who already cleared that turn and we don't have a kill (but have some practice), and next day we go as full statics group without helpers - how many chests will we have if we clear it on that next day?

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Originally Posted by Teppie

Yeah that seems incredibly excessive, it seems like you're punishing newbies for being new more than anything, it's already established that the veteran can't even get anything so it's not like they're double dipping. If anything it should be something like 3-5 1 Chest, 6-7 None, to prevent people selling runs for loot, but to let people have a half pre made run newbies through.

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They are trying to combat win-selling (as you noted). I'm not saying 'this is how you do that' but that's their main reasoning. I don't know that I agree with 1-2 ppl negating 2 chests dropping...but they probably wanted to make people still feel compelled to fully 8-man static this content (because that is, for better or worse, how SE intended we play it). So therefore, in their eyes, they only wish to fully reward those playing as intended.

The over 4 ppl is an obvious 'to keep you from selling runs' approach. And I'm actually more than okay with that...some people just want to see the story/don't have statics and feel left out. This is a nice way to let them go back....furthermore, it lets FC's (even full statics I think) re-challenge it and work on little things those elite statics like to work on like 'speed kills' 'odd setups' etc. So it might even potentially have ppl playing it more for funzies even after they get their 'clear' for the week. Time will tell.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

I have a question: if we take some person who already cleared that turn and we don't have a kill (but have some practice), and next day we go as full statics group without helpers - how many chests will we have if we clear it on that next day?

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If you took in 'helpers' to show you, but wiped it out before the kill...then re-entered with 8 people who haven't cleared it for the week, you'd get 2 chests. It only counts if you win it.

I think this change is going to be a big help.

Sure, its not ideal to bring just 1 or 2 people with the clear, but the penalty for bringing 4 is much lighter than I expected. The 4 without the clear would still get 1 drop between them, meaning that each person has no less chance of getting loot than 8 people would've with 2 boxes.

And besides, even 1 experienced person can be a massive help to a group that's still learning a fight. They may get less loot if they win that week, but once the group has learnt what to do, they should be able to get full loot next time!