Savage Coil - Should it be level synced?

If the purpose of Savage Coil is to provide the hardest possible version of a boss the dev team can create then shouldn't that instance be kept on an ilvl limit to prevent people from power levelling past the mechanics?

I've not downed any of the Savage content yet, but I'd like to do it when current endgame dries up. It just seems a bit pointless when people can power gear themselves past it (and they will if they can).

YH I notice teams looking to challenge this NOW.

But as you say, if people do it with massively inflated ilvls or even with crafted 110 melded, nobody will care I guess. The prestige of it has taken a considerable dent.

Yes, I agree. Level sync the savage coil, so the challenge is preserved. That's the entire point in savage coil.

EDIT: And level sync it hard too!

Why are people who never touched savage (and some who didn't even clear T9 before echo... ), talking about savage balance? This isn't the nerfed storymode SCoB, the mechanics are preserved and are still deadly.

The groups that challenge this, can choose to simply wear 2.3 gear if they want to do it with the gear it was tuned at. Or, they can choose to use the new gear to see how much stronger they have become. And if more people start doing it because they feel they have a better chance of success now with more gear, that's a good thing.

Also, another reason ilvl sync is a horrible idea is they already messed it up for the dungeons - i110 with no materia. i90 crafted was pretty important for clearing savage, as well as i115 weapons.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Why are people who never touched savage (and some who didn't even clear T9 before echo... ), talking about savage balance?

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

The groups that challenge this, can choose to simply wear 2.3 gear if they want to do it with the gear it was tuned at. Or, they can choose to use the new gear to see how much stronger they have become.

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There are just so many things wrong with this post.

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Originally Posted by Velox

There are just so many things wrong with this post.

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No everything in my post is correct, and is written by someone who has cleared Savage turns. You didn't clear T5 until echo, you didn't clear T9 until echo, so Savage balance isn't something that is ever going to affect you.

It's fine the way it is now, and if having more gear gets more people to attempt it, that is nothing but a good thing, because then it justifies the development time spent on it and maybe they will add some for Coil 1. I'm going to be very disappointed if there's no Savage mode for Coil 3 added in 2.5, since I've already had all of Coil 3 on farm for a month now.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

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Implying people don't turn echo off in order to deal with a fight properly
Implying people who don't do savage now won't do it in the future when they have the time, thus being affected by any future balances (if any)

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Originally Posted by Velox

Implying people don't turn echo off in order to deal with a fight properly
Implying people who don't do savage now won't do it in the future when they have the time, thus being affected by any future balances (if any)

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There are just so many things wrong with this post.

Sensing a little unnecessary spite, that I don't think this topic needs :/ People who have not touched savage coil will be affected because they will lose the opportunity to experience the challenge.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

The groups that challenge this, can choose to simply wear 2.3 gear if they want to do it with the gear it was tuned at.

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They won't easily find a group willing to do so. Also, isn't there a title awarded for completion of savage coil? The significance and allure of that title will be watered down, which is unfair both to those who beat the content with lesser gear, and to those who don't have the group or play time to achieve the title while it's still hot.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

And if more people start doing it because they feel they have a better chance of success now with more gear, that's a good thing.

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Why? You mean because players are running out of content after normal coil, but not enticed to keep subbing while the next challenge is "out of reach"? I imagine that's a really small percentage of players. The game can cope without those subs, and those players will surely be back each content patch.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Also, another reason ilvl sync is a horrible idea is they already messed it up for the dungeons - i110 with no materia. i90 crafted was pretty important for clearing savage, as well as i115 weapons.

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Improvements would be welcome to fix those level sync issues, but I don't see how level sync would be more terrible that no level sync. The challenge would still be preserved better with iffy level sync than with no level sync at all.

There are players who enjoy a challenge and are capable of meeting one, but that can't or don't want to be racing against the clock. I understand the sense in nerfing content, but I was hoping savage modes could live outside of the standard content recycling pattern. It's tiresome to keep hearing:

Noob: "Yes! We just cleared Turn X!"

Snob: "It's a joke since the patch, IMO"

Savage coil could live outside of this, and always be a respected achievement, even in several years time.

Your post is an extremely accurate case study as to why someone who hasn't set foot in savage coil (have you even done normal coil without echo?) shouldn't be talking about savage balance.

I'm the one with the titles, and I think it would be a good thing for more players to get them. Because they will become better players by making it through the fight.

No I haven't even completed T7 even with echo. Right now, I'm in a casual FC, and play with my friend and girlfriend. The FC raid between 8-9:30 each evening IF we have enough players on. There's no static as such - for locked content (if we are up to it) we rotate playing into the group each week, and if those players aren't all on, we do something else, like a primal or ST. I work and I have kids, so it's the way I prefer to play right now. I'm not saying that the others in my FC are less skilled or holding me back, but simply that we don't dedicate much time at all to raiding in comparison to hardcore FC's, and that the group being non-static is a major obstacle to progression too.

That said, I do love hyper difficult challenges in games, and in single player games where I can play at my own pace, I'll dig into the harder extra content. Whether I'm capable of completing a challenge like Savage CoB neither you nor I can say. In future I might like to be part of a more serious static group and be able to come back and see what I missed from Savage CoB. If I'm honest, I think it's unlikely to happen any time soon, if ever, but it's still something I would really desire (just not enough to ditch my friends and out of game commitments for).

I can accept that my opinion isn't as informed as yours might be, but I think you're being narrow minded to exclude anyone from the conversation who's not actually experienced Savage yet. Also, congrats on the titles (sincerely), but instead of throwing your weight around why not put your energy into providing a better argument for allowing Savage CoB to become easier and easier each patch. I'm not convinced that every player who's completed Savage CoB would share your sentiment, or even that the opinions of those players is necessarily the most important if they already got what they want.

I haven't set foot in Savage, but I can say that I think an ilvl sync would be unnecessary. Unlike the current SCoB, Savage retains all of it's mechanics at their intended difficulty (well, y'know, for Savage). Having higher ilvl gear is essentially the same as having the Echo buff, which will help people meet DPS checks easier/more survivability for the tanks/higher healing potency for the healers ~BUT~ they'll still need to learn every mechanic of each fight before they'll be able to beat it. So things will be a bit easier for higher geared players but the learning process will remain intact. Personally that's fine with me.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Your post is an extremely accurate case study as to why someone who hasn't set foot in savage coil (have you even done normal coil without echo?) shouldn't be talking about savage balance.

I'm the one with the titles, and I think it would be a good thing for more players to get them. Because they will become better players by making it through the fight.

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So I'm confused... as you're someone with those Savage Titles, WHY is it a good thing that they will become easier to get over time? Why would you want people to be able to out-gear this type of challenge? Putting an iLvl Sync in for the max level of gear at the time Savage was introduced seems a no-brainer for me (i110 or i90 penta-melded). That way future people who clear the content won't have the advantage of greater heals, higher defensive levels, higher damage output, than those who cleared it originally. Sure OHKs should still be OHKs in the future, and they will need to learn the mechanics... but why allow them the advantages better gear gives in the first place?

There's no "balance" in what you're advocating, only gradual easement of difficulty through higher gear levels.

I cleared T9 before echo and did try savage with my static and plan to clear with them once we clear FCoB. I'm totally against the idea of a level sync nerf. While I appreciate the wishful thinking of clearing content early for the great achievement of always experiencing the content the way it was first cleared by the best groups, and can relate in wishing my group could have gotten to the content sooner, you must understand why this is simply not feasible.

An item level synced player has all materia properties removed from their gear. I don't hold on to old gear so I would be forced into an item level sync. The i90 pentamelded jewelry I equip for VIT would be useless and I would be unable to obtain over 5.2k health. If you've looked at these turns you'd see the damage is incredibly high and early groups equipped a full side of crafted jewelry melded with VIT to survive. The item level sync would make these turns nearly impossible to clear by removing these materia properties players used to gain the vitality needed to survive unavoidable mechanics.

Rest assured though: the challenge of these turns is not in dps or in outgearing the content; it is in executing mechanics and group coordination. As a previous post mentioned, clearing savage is still quite an achievement and will make you a better player. None of the current bis gear will help with the myriad of one shot mechanics you will face in savage. If you go in with your i120-130 gear you will still find your group banging their heads against a wall in frustration and a great sense of pride when you finally clear. I can assure you "outgearing" savage will not take that away.

Savage mechanics are still going to stomp players unless they put in time to learn, much more than normal coil turns. You also always have the option, if your group reaches consensus, to wear Patch 2.3 gear if you want to do the fight at the gear it was tuned at.

The driving force to challenge Savage is simply that - a challenge. Titles are cool, but that isn't why you do it in the first place. If more players feel that they want to give it a go now with a bit of a gear edge, that's fine. It may lead to more doing the content, challenging it, and becoming a better player in the process.

Is it easier now if you go in at i120 with i130/135 weapons? Of course it is, DPS challenges are much easier and you're probably going to be able to push at places and skip some attack patterns as well as recover from mistakes that was impossible to do before. But the bosses still aren't just going to fall over and die and are still going to require higher mechanical precision and teamwork than T10~13.

The elephant in the room that people are forgetting is that if the ilevel sync was applied like it was in those dungeons it would actually be harder than the challenge originally presented, as melds on crafted items do not work with ilevel sync.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

The elephant in the room that people are forgetting is that if the ilevel sync was applied like it was in those dungeons it would actually be harder than the challenge originally presented, as melds on crafted items do not work with ilevel sync.

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I'm pretty sure this is why they removed the iLevel sync temporarily - so they can reinstate it later with it working properly.

Anyway, depending on how Heavensward pans out with post-50 progression and what happens to the current content, I really wouldn't be surprised if it ends up having a level 52 sync and locked to iLvl 135 or whatever becomes equivalent for that level range.

As Ellatrix is trying to get at 130 gear will not really help people beat Savage Coil that couldn't beat it before 2.4.

Many to nearly all mechanics will retain their similar "skill check" that the did in 2.3. Having 1k more HP actually isn't going to help on many of them.

People might be able to cheese Savage Rafflesia and it might be possible to skip a wave in ST8 but I'd wager those 2 cases where 130 gear will matter will still only be possible for people that have cleared them before 2.4 anyways.

When it really comes down to it, the Savage turns are still too technical for an increase in ilvl gear to really help people that couldn't beat them before.

How much difference is there really between clearing savage on an ilvl cap of 110 and 130? Recently as more people have been taking an interest in Savage, I've been seeing those who cleared it in 110 saying that a 130 kill doesn't count as the handicap given is high enough to not really merit the prestige.

Even MrHappy said on his stream yesterday that ilvl130 kills "don't count" (outside of system achievements)

Another example:
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen..._clear/cpu0edk

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

People might be able to cheese Savage Rafflesia and it might be possible to skip a wave in ST8 but I'd wager those 2 cases where 130 gear will matter will still only be possible for people that have cleared them before 2.4 anyways.

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I suspect it is for reasons like this that are causing people to dismiss the prestige of a 130 kill.

I haven't cleared Savage yet (currently working on it), but honestly I don't give a damn hows it cleared. I think its a cool achievement to strive for, and if I see someone running around with the savage title, I don't for a second check their gear to decide if I should dismiss their title or not. Its an accomplishment anyway you put it, and I don't care what gear was worn when it was cleared. Regardless, it takes a good team, with good communication and skill. I think anyone who clears it should be proud of themselves and their team, no matter what gear they were wearing.

If they were going to ilevel lock it they would most likely have done it before now. But I could see locking it at i130. Which would be interesting too, it would show they wanted a larger audience while still maintaining some degree of difficulty.

However, it also makes sense for SE not to, it cost development time to design and balance the encounters and hardly anyone attempted it when we were at 110. Leaving it open widens the amount of people who will attempt it, and make SE money. I would guarantee you it would alienate far less people than it occupies.

Furthermore the Savages and progression 10-13 had a much larger problem. The vast resources it took to beat them as quickly as possible. Primarily two resources although they are related, TIME and GIL. Time should be controlled, and Penta melded IVs (i90 for both and left side 110 for 10-13) should not have helped as much as they did. If you truly wanted progression to highlight player and team skill, two changes would have to be made going forward. First crafted gear should come out months after content is beaten (to help new &less hardcore people), and it shouldn't allow for better stats or multiple primary stats. Second each lockout week should be attempt capped. For example you get X attempts at coil each week. This would make the week anyone beat it far more meaningful, and reduce the time required to be at the top by orders of magnitude. It could still be circumvented by alts, I am aware, but it would still make the gear&time gaps far closer together. Basically increasing the meaning of player skill and group coordination vs time. (Although all 3 still relevant).

Hell it might even make a nice little EVE style boss strategy espionage relevant.

I know everyone won't agree, I also know they are unlikely to do it.
But I can dream right?

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Originally Posted by Velo_Vandore

No I haven't even completed T7 even with echo. Right now, I'm in a casual FC, and play with my friend and girlfriend. The FC raid between 8-9:30 each evening IF we have enough players on. There's no static as such - for locked content (if we are up to it) we rotate playing into the group each week, and if those players aren't all on, we do something else, like a primal or ST. I work and I have kids, so it's the way I prefer to play right now. I'm not saying that the others in my FC are less skilled or holding me back, but simply that we don't dedicate much time at all to raiding in comparison to hardcore FC's, and that the group being non-static is a major obstacle to progression too.

That said, I do love hyper difficult challenges in games, and in single player games where I can play at my own pace, I'll dig into the harder extra content. Whether I'm capable of completing a challenge like Savage CoB neither you nor I can say. In future I might like to be part of a more serious static group and be able to come back and see what I missed from Savage CoB. If I'm honest, I think it's unlikely to happen any time soon, if ever, but it's still something I would really desire (just not enough to ditch my friends and out of game commitments for).

I can accept that my opinion isn't as informed as yours might be, but I think you're being narrow minded to exclude anyone from the conversation who's not actually experienced Savage yet. Also, congrats on the titles (sincerely), but instead of throwing your weight around why not put your energy into providing a better argument for allowing Savage CoB to become easier and easier each patch. I'm not convinced that every player who's completed Savage CoB would share your sentiment, or even that the opinions of those players is necessarily the most important if they already got what they want.

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When Scob was getting it's teeth ripped out the argument of you casuals in general was "If you want a challenge go to savage where you belong. gtfo you hardcore elitists"

Cheesing it with gear pretty much defeats the purpose of making it difficult in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Aurelinaus

When Scob was getting it's teeth ripped out the argument of you casuals in general was "If you want a challenge go to savage where you belong. gtfo you hardcore elitists"

Cheesing it with gear pretty much defeats the purpose of making it difficult in the first place.

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Its 9 months old at this point and even in i170 gear 99% of the player base couldn't complete it. More and more people doing savage will lead to SE considering it again.

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Originally Posted by NovaUltimatum

Even MrHappy said on his stream yesterday that ilvl130 kills "don't count"

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Oh wow even MrHappy said this. so it must be true then right? I mean he´s the Law..... -.- lol. (Nothing against MrHappy personally, but this post is just dumb)

130 kills do count. ilvl 900 kills will count and so on. As long as the System gives the Achievment it counts. Period.

If you are freaking butthurt if some less "Hardcore" Players will challenge nerfed Content, or overgeared, later on with the same rewards when it was "hard", then fu**** stop playing MMO´s. because that´s how MMO´s work!

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Originally Posted by Electrowitch

Oh wow even MrHappy said this. so it must be true then right? I mean he´s the Law..... -.- lol. (Nothing against MrHappy personally, but this post is just dumb)

130 kills do count. ilvl 900 kills will count and so on. As long as the System gives the Achievment it counts. Period.

If you are freaking butthurt if some less "Hardcore" Players will challenge nerfed Content, or overgeared, later on with the same rewards when it was "hard", then fu**** stop playing MMO´s. because that´s how MMO´s work!

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I'm not saying I agree with him. I do want to understand why some people have this point of view though. Still, I thank you for your post, it actually gives some feedback from the other perspective.

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Originally Posted by Staris

If they were going to ilevel lock it they would most likely have done it before now. But I could see locking it at i130. Which would be interesting too, it would show they wanted a larger audience while still maintaining some degree of difficulty.

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Why? The tuning is already broken in i130 gear. t9 and t6 is significantly gimped, t8 to a lesser degree. The only title that maintains close to the difficulty it had is t7s and there's a conspicuous lack of people chasing that achievement.

I don't care how much people want to back pat people who are gear stomping it the jury is out to anyone who did savage progression in 2.3, the tuning is completely broken and it isn't the same challenge anymore. There's nothing stopping players doing it in i110 so it's not like it's a problem with SE, it's a player problem and it's telling how defensive they get when you tell them that they're gear stomping.

I hear both sides of the argument and sympathize (I yet still remain without a static, and cannot rely on my near-allergic-to-coil FC). Personally, I'd love to challenge it, highly geared or not, and that's simply for the love of Coil. BUT! It is worth noting that more than likely it WILL get level synced once Heavensward hits. So it's really more a matter of when, not if.

Has anyone now tried 2nd Coil Savage with a full group at level 60? I would be interested to know how different it feels.

Really? Can they be challenged unsynced now? That's just retarded.

I think giving titles to people downing T13 unsynced is already bad enough, but if people down even the Savage Coils unsynced, it's a damn joke. So much time wasted by people who actually did it properly, only to see your Average Joe get the same shinies for no investment of any sort.

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Originally Posted by ShaneDawn

Really? Can they be challenged unsynced now? That's just retarded.

I think giving titles to people downing T13 unsynced is already bad enough, but if people down even the Savage Coils unsynced, it's a damn joke. So much time wasted by people who actually did it properly, only to see your Average Joe get the same shinies for no investment of any sort.

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Personally, I've only tested entering as level 60 with an incomplete group. Although I've heard from friends that 8-man still allows level 60 there. I agree that it pretty much defeats the purpose of the fight design.

OK, just tested it and level 60 does work for a full 8-man group in 2nd coil savage.

well thats what happens when people say YES to level cap raise. it renders old content obsolete mostly. hence why level raises in general are bad design and plain lazy. but thats just me it seems.