So I was looking at the PvP action Testudo, and my immediate thought was "this is better than the tank level 1 and 2 LB..." It has a 180 second recast which can be reduced. It has a 15 second duration which is just as long as the tank LB and can be enhanced to 20 seconds. And the initial effect is 15% damage reduction for all party members, tank LB1 is 10% and can be enhanced to 25%, tank LB2 is 20%.
So in PvP PLDs have an ability that can be used regardless of party size, with a fairly short recast and is stronger than their limit break... Am I misunderstanding the concept of breaking limits here? Or does this not put into perspective how utterly bad the tank LB is that SE can make a PvP ability that is stronger than it...
Tesudo, SE inadvertently admitting the tank LB is worthless?
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11-25-2014, 09:14 AMCabalabobTesudo, SE inadvertently admitting the tank LB is worthless?
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11-25-2014, 09:17 AMSove92
Tank LB is situational, just like the heal LB. Tank LB is common in Ultima HM and T13 for example and some people use it for T11's 100% crit Nerve Cloud as well.
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11-25-2014, 09:21 AMPrototype909It was useful in Ultima HM because people didn't deal with the orbs well originally, there was no precedent for a mechanic like that. It's used in Coil because people have yet to overgear that content. While it's fair to say it's useful in Coil for that specific instance due to it basically being required for progression, by the time the majority of the playerbase gets there that strategy will probably be defunct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sove92
For 99% of the playerbase the only LB ever worth using is going to be a DPS one. -
11-25-2014, 09:31 AMAirget
Yea each has their own usefulness.
DD=Smooth Duty attempt
Magic=AOE to eliminate adds or overcome a one hit KO gimmick that involves multiple targets
Tank=Recovery against fallen allies and need to give healers room to breath while they recover
Healer=Quick Recovery (lv 3) to open opportunity to win when odds of a wipe are high. -
11-25-2014, 09:50 AMRiceisNice
Tank and Healer (archer/bard) LBs have always been extremely situational since it's implementation, would love it to be changed up a bit.
The tank values are incredibly low for 1 and 2 (10% and 20%), while LB3 has very few situations where it'd actually save you (primal ultimate do upwards of 15k that it's a wipe no matter what)
Healer has the same problem, 25% and 60% hp is very miniscule if you consider the immense outgoing damage on some encounters, even worse when you consider the animation lock. LB3 isn't any better because no one gets revived with invincibility frames (making it more situational than it already is with some fights) and the caster them self is animation locked for seven seconds, its a sacrificial LB. -
11-25-2014, 12:35 PMEmpressiaWhat tat nerve cloud only need virus + DK + SP + SS, such nub peeps!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sove92
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11-26-2014, 10:12 AMCabalabobI feel like you missed the point here, if DRG or WHM got their level 1 or 2 LB as a PvP skill for free on a 3 min cooldown there would be outcries of how overpowered it is (as it should be). PLD gets the tank LB for free and no one bats an eyelid. This is not the reaction one would expect from someone getting something STRONGER than their level 2 LB for free. The tank LB should be made into something that can be considered something better than a 3 min recast PvP ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sove92
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11-26-2014, 10:31 AMSleighDivine Seal Medica 2 is stronger than healer LB2 and you can use that every minute, and no one's complaining about either Medica 2 or Healer LB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cabalabob
Just gotta accept DPS Limit Break is the ideal one in all but situations where you're undergeared, messed up, or eating the big attack in T13. -
11-26-2014, 10:53 AMHakuroDKPretty much this. I don't even bother slotting LB on any of my hotbars (and I use a lot of hotbars) except on my MNK. Unless they increase the time on the buff to something actually worth it like 60s, no one will ever use that buff outside of things like Ultima HM and T13.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prototype909
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11-26-2014, 10:54 AMHakuroDKMost don't complain about Healer LB because Healer LB3 is a mass Revive. That's what healers use. Agreed that Healer LBs 1 and 2 are pretty silly considering the strength of some of their skill combos, but at least they have LB3. Tanks have zero universally helpful LBs that aren't an utter waste.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
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11-26-2014, 04:01 PMLusavari
Well... You also might argue that it's a PVP ability, and can't be used outside of PVP. In Front Lines, you'll never see more than a 2 bar limit break, and because killing everyone at an out-post or 1-shotting a healer is infinitely more useful than a healer or tank LB in there, it's not exactly over powered to give Paladin a superior action. If you look at the PVP actions, a LOT of them would be insanely useful and powerful outside of PVP like Skewer and it's -40% Int reduction, or Impulse Rush waiving flank requirements or Axe Kick granting instant 3 Stacks of GL or 50% Instant MP restoration from Manadraw or +25% HP and healing from Thrill of War as an AoE version of Thrill of Battle. A PVP action isn't really something to think too hard on. These are actions meant to grant an edge in battles against other players by effectively neutering their powers compared to yours for a short period.
The tank LB is meant to be the most situational of all four, and can allow a group at minimum gear levels to go beyond high damage unavoidable signature moves like Aetheric Boom or Terraflare that require the highest gear levels to otherwise survive. Tank LBs are meant to PROTECT. You PROTECT people when the odds are stacked against you. That means Tank LBs are most useful when content is first released, and its usefulness becomes mitigated in early content as people become stronger, and gain CONTROL of the battles. However... There are methods of always keeping a tank LB useful like item level caps, which effectively prevents overgearing. -
11-26-2014, 07:15 PMKyrosActually this is the bad way of doing it. Tank LB2 is far superior than having your WHM waste 2600 MP on stoneskin. It's not like you need DPS LB on T11 to get pass anything anyways; its DPS requirements are pretty lax.Quote:
Originally Posted by Empressia
Also, I have used Tank LB3 to save us from an accidental mine-on-allagan-field during T8. And uh, we used Healer LB3 to win a Shiva once, I guess. -
11-26-2014, 07:59 PMRadacciwell you know, you must do it the pro way, or quit the game. tank/healer LB are obviously not meant to be used...cause pro ppl say so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyros
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11-26-2014, 09:07 PMSleighHe didn't mean Stoneskin, he meant Sacred Soil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyros
No, using tank LB in T11 is a terrible idea (if you have a MNK). Huge waste of DPS. No one would trade a Virus and Aetherflow stack for a 2 bars of LB. -
11-26-2014, 09:30 PMShneibel
tank lb, what is it again ? tank have lb ?
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11-26-2014, 11:05 PMFyce
At least the tank LB3 looks super cool...
Besides, there's one use that wasn't mentionned: after a wipe, you often have a LB2 to use just before starting the battle again.
It's not a really big deal in most cases, but it's still nice to have. -
11-27-2014, 12:03 AMEhayte
I think the main point is that it would be awesome if they buffed the Tank and Healer LBs to make them actually matter in some kind of content. Tank and Healer LB1s are so laughably weak that the only time you would ever use them at level 50 would be to troll your friends.
Something liiiike:
Heal1 - Party-wide 1/2 potency regen on party (stacks with other regens) - Healing Gust
Heal2 - Party wide full potency regen on party (stacks with other regens) - Healing Wind
Heal3 - Party-wide immunity to Magic Damage for 5 seconds - Lunatic High
Tank1 - 30 second 15% buff to mDefense for entire party - Shellaga
Tank2 - 30 second 15% buff to pDefense and mDefense for party - Wall
Tank3 - 5 second immunity to physical damage for party - Shield All
In which case the best option is usually to use the Caster DPS LBQuote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
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11-27-2014, 01:33 AMHakuroDKHere's the problem, though. You're talking about wasting a full 3-bar Limit Break--a limit break meter that the whole party shares, mind you--for something that only lasts for five seconds. If it lasted 60 or even 30 seconds, it would be much more lucrative to use and be more on-par with things like DPS LBs. Because think about it. What would you rather use, realistically, in a boss fight: Last Bastion (50% damage reduction for 12 seconds) or Final Heaven (Inflict damage with a potency of 9000 to one enemy)? Pretty sure most people would go with the one that actually has a permanent lasting effect on the fight than the one that only lasts for 12 seconds in a fight that usually lasts anywhere between 12 and 20 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
Also, Healer's LB3 is fine as-is. Mass Revive is a beautiful thing. It's just LB1 and LB2 that need reworking. Also, an option to use LB1 and LB2 when LB2 and LB3 are active, respectively, would be fantastic. -
11-27-2014, 01:41 AMEhayteYou are correct, 5 seconds is too short, however I have run out of motivation to continue to discuss this. lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by HakuroDK
BUT I will say that mass revive is total garbage because if you need to use it you are going to be unrecoverable anyways because it likely means your tank is dead and the boss is going to wreck everybody before anything can get accomplished. It would be an exceptional circumstance where healer LB3 was useful.
I'm more talking about making a healer or tank LB3 as trialing a part of the major raid battles as the DPS limit breaks are currently. Of course, there is something to be said for making melee or caster dps desirable in certain fights, as healers and tanks are already required. -
11-27-2014, 01:53 AMHakuroDKI know people who have won after a Healer's LB3 saved the party from a wipe. Don't be dissing Pulse of Life. It's a really really good LB3 in a pinch! I mean, admittedly, there should be no weakness after use, but that's the only drawback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
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11-27-2014, 02:23 AMEhayteYeah, I mean anecdotally it can work and you can still get a clear, but DPS limit break is built INTO almost all coil encounters, whereas the tank and healer break are long-shot save-your-butt moves that work about 10% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by HakuroDK
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11-27-2014, 02:59 AMHakuroDKEasy remedy for Pulse of Life. Mass Revival, 100% HP/MP/TP Recovery, no Weakness. It's something that can only ever be used once, so why not make it count?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
As for Last Bastion, that needs to last a hell of a lot longer than 12 seconds and have more of an effect besides 50% damage mitigation.
Limit Breaks are supposed to be those otherwise gamebreaking abilities that you can only use once, maybe twice in a single run of anything. Final Heaven and Meteor do a great job of that. But Pulse of Life is kinda lacking a bit and Last Bastion is obscenely situational. -
11-27-2014, 03:16 AMRiceisNiceWhy not caster LB2 for extra damage on pull? The 20% defense buff will hardly mean anything for the first 5 seconds of the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
The fact it is LB3 makes it incredibly situational to have (far into a fight), on top of that, there's no invincibility frames for those that get revived (making timing very particular, esp when they are coming up with weakness/BoD) and a 7 second animation lock for the user (which more or less is a death sentence for most encounters). Even for a fight like Shiva this can lead to trouble with either mistiming it or just not being able to time it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by HakuroDK
It already revives you with 100% hp, mp and tp. The problem is the lack of invincbility frames topped from that ressurection, coupled with weakness, and the caster having an animation lock of 7 seconds. No one can reliably avoid AoE damage that spells death the moment you get caught in it, or puts you in a very awkward spot to dance (such as landslides for the former, or reverse-titan bomb pattern on shiva in latter, esp since its very easy to overlap those AoEs and die.)Quote:
Originally Posted by HakuroDK
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11-27-2014, 04:08 AMJayCommonQuote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
I don't feel like everyone being raised should get the invincibility frames, but that is just my opinion. I feel like the person who just saved the ass of (up to) 7 more players should be the one that is invincible inside of the animation lock. Like already stated, 90% of the time you use a Healer LB3 all it does is prolong the inevitable wipe. In over a year of maining Bard through all endgame while it is relevant, I can count on both hands the amount of times this has saved the raid and actually produced a win. But it's fine the way it is, because every extra second of time you get into a fight you are learning is beneficial when in progression. 7 people who died shouldn't be granted with invincibility, especially when the raise is almost instant with no pop-ups notifications to click. They should just be aware of it happening and be ready to continue to fight.
But every time I saved the group for a win, I died for doing it. It's not that big of a deal, but it feels like a punishment to save everyone. I don't like dying just as much as anyone else, and the fact that it's going to happen when I use it doesn't stop me from doing it when the situation calls for it, but it still sucks no matter what spin you put on it.
*sorry for the long segway...*
But this gets me to the actual point I would like to see changed with the LB3. The 100% HP/MP/TP refill. It's awesome. However why does it not refill the MP/TP of people that are actually still alive when the LB3 is used? This makes no sense to me. This is a very situational thing, but it matters nonetheless.
Example: Shiva EX. When we were learning we had a SMN with us in a group I was in. Multiple DPS were dying to random dumb things (because....learning) and I had to keep ballad up for a lot of the fight to help the WHM. The WHM/SCH ended up both getting killed (I think to a Glacier Bash) and the SMN/MT and I were the only ones alive. PLD popped HG and I used LB3. SMN swiftcast raise the WHM right before I was able to get LB3 off and the WHM accepts it, and takes the raise. WHM is revived with low HP/MP while everyone else gets the full benefit of the LB3. Almost directly after all of this we got the triple stack of Absolute Zero. I couldn't even put up a Ballad for that WHM because I don't get MP refilled while I'm still alive, and I'm skirting around sub-100 TP for minutes because I never had the chance to Paeon for 30 seconds or so. By the time that triple AZ was over, everyone that got revived by the LB was dead again because the WHM just didn't have enough MP for potent AOE heals. Succor can only do so much when 5 weakness characters are eating 2k damage 3 times....And basically the SMN kind of screwed up the run because he was playing good and doing what he should have been doing, reacting quickly to a deteriorating situation.
TL ; DR: Healer LB3 should fully apply to everyone in the party regardless if they are alive or dead. MP/TP refills don't apply to people that are alive when LB3 is cast. This makes absolutely no sense. -
11-27-2014, 04:25 AMRiceisNiceThe thing is that when you do ressurect them with LB3, more often than not the location they have resurrected on will be less than ideal, and they will die to an incoming mechanic that they cannot move out of the way fast enough because of the lack of mercy-invincibility frames.Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCommon
Back to Shiva example, I was the bard about 30% in. We had a near total party wipe save for me and the warrior tank, with perma frost going right into bow phase. The tank's used up holmygang and is going to die to the perma frost DoT if he doesn't get a heal. I can top him off with LB3 and resurrect the entire party, but they're all scattered in less than ideal locations that they cannot avoid the 270* bow AoE, nor could the tank preemptively move her because this followed up immediately after permafrost. I cant delay LB3 for it to be more ideal because the tank would've died to the DoT
I mean ideally, we should've never been in that situation to begin with to make LB3 not an option, but that's also part of the reason why it so bleh and incredibly situational for encounters, whether it be farm or progression. -
11-27-2014, 04:42 AMJayCommonQuote:
Originally Posted by RiceisNice
I can definitely see your point. I wasn't really trying to argue your point about the invincibility frames I guess, maybe should have worded that differently.
What I was trying to get at, is the LB3 is a healer LB, and currently it's a better idea for a healer to sac their self and let the BRD do it because me having no MP is a much better idea than one healer maybe having none when he uses it. I just can't see any reasoning for why alive players can't benefit from the whole LB3.