Loosing Customer based on Loot System in Bahamut Coil

Dear SE-Team,

Shortly to my person. I play FF14 already quite long, before I used to play also FF11 and I suggested in FF11 to change the loot system on HNM from tradeable loots to rare/exe loots which are bound to avoid gilselling and frustrating of players. After some month you implemented the idea and I think it was a successful decision to make that game even more better.

However to my suggestion for FF14. I noticed that you lose quite of lots customer, because they are frustrated because the loot system in Coil is fully RNG based. Let me make that clear on an example:

For example you have a group which clear T10-T13 weekly. Some people might be really lucky and get the loots their want, but there are also quite few which was clearing in the last patch over 15 times and did not get their loot. I noticed lots of people which have bad luck are just frustrated and go to other games or totally stop playing.

1000 Systems limit, please read below comment for next page.

To avoid this I suggest to fix it with an little modification. You should leave the system like it is with the RNG and weekly lockout but add one important thing. If a player cleared for example 5 or 10 times 1 turn (for example: T13) than he should get an item, let’s call it Token. With this item he can go to an NPC and trade the Token against the specific item which he wants (the NPC should all Loot of turns).

Player A cleared 8 times Final Coil of Bahamut Turn 13 he unfortunately had no luck that his weapon dropped. He is very frustrated and about to stop playing and find another game. But in 2 more kills of that Boss he know he will get the token and that token he can trade against the weapon he want. That way he stays motivated and keep playing.

I suggest making weapon token after 10 kills and other token, and for other turns after 5 kills. You can also combine the getting of this token with the archiving system.

1000 Systems limit, please read below comment for next page.

That way you keep:

A) the player highly motivated, because they see if they put high effort in and long time playing they will get automatic the item they want.

B) You still have the system you implemented with RNG factor added by an little modification to make it perfect.

C) Even players which already had luck in RNG and have all their items stay motivated to keep playing because they can also gear now other classes. Before there was problems that people who had all their loots just left the group and didn’t raid with them anymore.

I hope I was able to make my point of view clear and I hope you implement it in the near future to the game so they game will grow up even more and keep the player long time motivated in the game and keep them in the game.

If you have further questions, please let me know anytime.

Thanks,

Amanduz

You can edit your post to bypass 1000 char limit. As for this have you looked at the new drexpert dungeons and their drops of "token" gear. I'm guessing this is a bit of a test of such a system for future uses.

This makes loot common. I'm sorry but with the lack of varied gear, nothing is truly rare. People should have to work hard for loot. Making loot easily accessible devalue earning it.

I don't see how this makes it common. You still get the core of your loot as RNG drops but if you week after week after week get nothing then this balances out that bad RNG by giving you one bit of loot in N weeks.

It does make items common. You talk a lot about luck, good luck, bad luck, whatever. The fact is, people get loot regardless of "luck". Rewarding players because RNG doesn't agree with them is not the way to balance a game. Who says balance needs to be achieved by handing out rewards for "participation"? Apply this same argument to the old Atma drop rates, it doesn't work. If you are willing to quit a game because you cannot get a piece of loot then I say that action alone balances out the game. Players shouldn't be able to hold the game hostage because they don't get a piece of loot. Some items should be rare; I don't want to play a game where everyone has the same items. Those with a deep well of patience will get these items, those without, well they will stay without.

EDIT: I understand your frustration and would suggest that instead of a token for a guaranteed item, for every 10 clears without winning an item the player gest a token that either allows a free reroll or a +10 bonus to their current roll.

And finally, when you say SE is losing it's customer base, that is a claim you MUST back up with fact. Numbers and figures are what a company looks into at the end of each financial quarter. If SE determines that they are losing customers because of the RNG system then I guarantee they will look into that system accordingly.

"Those with a deep well of patience will get these items, those without, well they will stay without."

Sorry but RNG is not good game design or balance and certanly not rewarding patience. It's a way to keep people getting just that one more hit at trying it(aka player/sub retention).
And yes I agreed from the start that atma drop rates should have been adjusted OR that there should have been some progression towards getting in to even out the RNG.

The RNG drops are akin to dig a random hole somewhere and hope you struck something valuable. Also this is not a drop the token instantly. This is drop a token for those people that have in so and so many runs not gotten a SINGLE drop(yes that happens)(this would replace ONE of the drops in the fight by a token after so and so tries of not getting it). Would it change the balance in any way? No not really. Infact I would argue the token dropped should be specific to those people that can need it so in the end if there are 3 people that have yet to see a drop then those 3 can roll on it. It changes nothing balance wise. Just gives a person a bone to keep going(aka player/sub retention).

And such people are the ones that will leave because not getting a reward for something you are farming is not enjoyable. Especially if you see everyone else around you getting their drops(you wouldn't believe how demoralizing it gets when all your friends already got their atmas 1 month before you manage to get more than 5 for the same or even MORE effort).

"I don't want to play a game where everyone has the same items."

Face it you already are. The builds are mostly cookie cutter with maybe 2 paths depending if you prioritize one secondary over another. The rest is just sugar coating on top.

"You should leave the system like it is with the RNG" If the RNG system is "not good game design" you can't correct it by just adding situational modifiers. Your suggestion is to take a system that is "not good game design" and mutate it to fit your needs. If a player is willing to quit a game because RNG is unfair then I say let them. You say RNG is "akin to dig(ing) a random hole", but that argument is flawed because someone always "digs in the right spot." Like I said, I get your frustration but handing out freebies isn't the way to do it. If you believe the RNG system is flawed then you need to suggest a new system instead of trying to patch the current one.

"And such people are the ones that will leave because not getting a reward for something you are farming is not enjoyable."

Then don't farm it. If you don't find something enjoyable you are not obligated to do it. I can't do Titan Extreme because my Playstation 3's hardware can't keep up with incoming information. That frustrates me but I understand that this is something that is not currently correctable. Just because the game doesn't work the way one player wants it to does not mean the system needs to be changed to cater to them. If they quit, then fine, but them quitting is not reason enough to change key elements and plenty of players ARE getting items.

"I don't want to play a game where everyone has the same items."

I quote myself because you did not understand why I said that. I realize that the builds are "mostly cookie cutter". But at the same time, there is gear that is still seen as "top level" and currently out of reach. I don't want to see players running around with "pity" rewards. If you can't obtain the item through normal mean you should not be handed items because you fail to roll well in RNG. Personally, the problem I see is in instances in general. It devalues gear because and instance can be entered whenever enough players join in a party. Hence why gear binds to you and is unable to be sold on the MB. When I hear players complain about not rolling a good value in RNG it makes me happy. I don't want things to be handed out easily, at all. If I do get gear from the final raids I will consider myself lucky and happy to have something that at that moment, may be considered rare but obtainable gear.

And everyone can get gear, just enter with a preformed group of friends you may have made along the way. If they can't agree to share the loot then maybe you shouldn't count them as friends. And if you don't have friends in the game, make some. This is a social game, a growing game. I guarantee better gear will come along and the gear once though barely attainable will come your way. Don't change the RNG system, get rid of it.

Thanks for your comments I stay to my opinion and suggestion and believe a modification like that will result in an overall performance increase of the game and higher customer statisfication.

However thanks IsaacDamodred for your value comments but as you mentioned yourself you did not clear Titan Extreme yet (which is really old content) which makes you not the right person to judge on current progression content without any experience. I am only talking on the weekly lockout contents which is currently T10,T11,T12 and T13.

The old content without weekly lockouts I dont talk about.

My opinion doesn't matter because I have yet to clear Titan EX? Titan EX has no bearing on End Coil, they are exclusive from one another. As a MMO player, I have every right to judge A GAME I PAY FOR.

Customer satisfaction would go up if you handed out freebies. But it would also lower the satisfaction of paying customers, like myself, who do. not. wish. to. see. progression. even. more. trivialized. Everyone understands the disappointment of not receiving loot, but this is part of any game. I believe that loot should be EVEN HARDER to get. Make something in this game truly rare. You're sense of entitlement goes far.

"The old content without weekly lockouts I dont talk about."

Well I'm sorry but you started this thread and if a player with opposing views chooses to use content of their choice to argue their point, it is up to you to show burden of proof. You repeatedly have refused to even ADDRESS key points in my argument.

Get a group of Coil players whom you trust to agree on loot before entering a raid. If they don't play by the rules boot them. It is the community who polices these things, it is not the job of SE to see that players remain fair and true to their word. This is your solution. If you can't acknowledge this point then you are obviously not really seeking a fair and balanced solution.

Short status update the first people already start to quitting and going to WoW. Based on experience from this patch I can report following:

There is a group which cleared 4 times 3rd Coil. They got 2x WHM cane and 2x nin Dagger (they dont have nin). This means they cleared 4 weeks and put lots of hours in to make this possible. Only person who got loot was the WHM. The other 7 people are already frustated.

Two of them quit already and going to play WoW.

This is just a report from one group. The later it becomes the more people will get to get to the same stage.

I seriously hoping SE is realizing the importance on the loot system which should be balanced.

I also agree on very rare loots which only should get some people but I think the mount drop rate cover this aspect real good.

Thats it from my side I hope I was able to make the problem clear and was able to give a good suggestion to improve in future.

See you around!

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Originally Posted by IsaacDamodred

This makes loot common. I'm sorry but with the lack of varied gear, nothing is truly rare. People should have to work hard for loot. Making loot easily accessible devalue earning it.

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Please make up your mind. Do you want people to "work hard" and "earn" the loot, or do you want them to have enough luck? RNG does not reward effort, it rewards only luck. Did a person who cleared something once and get their drop put in more hard work and effort than a person who cleared it 10 or 20 times and got nothing?

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Originally Posted by IsaacDamodred

It does make items common. You talk a lot about luck, good luck, bad luck, whatever. The fact is, people get loot regardless of "luck".

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No, they do not. If you're unlucky enough, RNG will screw you over repeatedly, and it has the potential to keep doing so indefinitely, as there is no safeguard installed.

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Originally Posted by IsaacDamodred

EDIT: I understand your frustration and would suggest that instead of a token for a guaranteed item, for every 10 clears without winning an item the player gest a token that either allows a free reroll or a +10 bonus to their current roll.

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And screw the other people who put in hard work and effort out of their loot?


Personally, I support a token system similar to what the OP suggested. Considering the multiclassing in this game, there is enough loot people can be interested in to keep running content after gearing their main class. Especially with systems like Allagan Oil and Sand.
Only runs without any drop should yield a token; if you don't walk away entirely empty-handed, no token that run.

People seem to be confusing what the OP was talking about (or I am, perhaps). They want a token system for the event that you clear a turn 10 times and nothing even drops that you need (a bit vague on this bit -- not sure if this is intended to mean any item for your job or any item that you don't have for your job). 10 clears of weekly locked out content without a drop is a very long time already. This system wouldn't even kick in for the majority of players. There's really only enough time for it to potentially kick in twice between the release of raid tiers (6 months). Obviously this won't make FCoB (or whatever) loot 'more common' -- the increase is an absolute maximum of 5%, but more realistically about 1%. Personally I think that as a consolation to relieve frustration this proposed system does very little.

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Originally Posted by Riepah

Please make up your mind. Do you want people to "work hard" and "earn" the loot, or do you want them to have enough luck? RNG does not reward effort, it rewards only luck. Did a person who cleared something once and get their drop put in more hard work and effort than a person who cleared it 10 or 20 times and got nothing?



No, they do not. If you're unlucky enough, RNG will screw you over repeatedly, and it has the potential to keep doing so indefinitely, as there is no safeguard installed.

And screw the other people who put in hard work and effort out of their loot?


Personally, I support a token system similar to what the OP suggested. Considering the multiclassing in this game, there is enough loot people can be interested in to keep running content after gearing their main class. Especially with systems like Allagan Oil and Sand.
Only runs without any drop should yield a token; if you don't walk away entirely empty-handed, no token that run.

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Luck? I never spoke of luck as a deciding factor. Luck this, luck that, luck is bullshit, quit holding onto an imaginary feel-good. Before you tell me to "MAKE UP MY MIND" do me a favor and reread my arguments. There is no reason for me to make up my mind as I NEVER ADVOCATED LUCK IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM! /facepalm

I pay for this game and I say NO FREE ITEMS. How hard is that to understand? You want to throw a wrecking ball at loot all because you cannot get an item in the End Coil? Well, wait for the weekly lockouts to be removed. Patience, it's a virtue, XD.

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Originally Posted by IsaacDamodred

Luck? I never spoke of luck as a deciding factor. Luck this, luck that, luck is bullshit, quit holding onto an imaginary feel-good. Before you tell me to "MAKE UP MY MIND" do me a favor and reread my arguments. There is no reason for me to make up my mind as I NEVER ADVOCATED LUCK IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM! /facepalm

I pay for this game and I say NO FREE ITEMS. How hard is that to understand? You want to throw a wrecking ball at loot all because you cannot get an item in the End Coil? Well, wait for the weekly lockouts to be removed. Patience, it's a virtue, XD.

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Some people may never see a piece of loot for their character at all, not just one item. I can't vouch for anyone like this, but like someone mentioned before there is no safeguard against such a thing happening.

If you really played FFXI idk why your complaining about this loot system atleast something is guaranteed to drop. I'll take rng over 1% droprates anyday.

I feel the biggest issue is the loot pool was diluted enough, and Ninja only exacerbated this problem.

A couple of points about this issue.
Firstly, in 2.0, all myth gear was job specific. I feel this is a GOOD thing and should probably have returned in 2.4.
Casters, healers, and tank are currently sharing their tomestone gear with each other, despite having in some cases (casters) significantly differing stat requirements.
I think it would be in everyone's best interest to save up their "free" tokens to gear up their job of choice specifically.

Secondly, I don't see ANY logical reason to have class loot in coil separated despite sharing the same stats.
There is no legitimate reason that a Bard and Ninja should not share the same boots/belts/head pieces etc, other than visual differentiation. This is simply diluting the already thin loot pool.
Same fact goes for Dragoon and Monk. Given that they should very reasonably share defense stats anyways, both classes could feasibly share left side raid loot also, as they already do with accessories.

This will still drive the player base to collect a mixed set of coil loot and tomestone loot, and have less gear going to waste, especially since there are at a minimum 2 classes each group does not bring to each instance.

Weapons from T13 however, you're still looking at a 1/10 chance, unless they eventually (and most definitely should given even more job in expansion) add a third loot chest for specific turns.

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Originally Posted by Whiston

I feel the biggest issue is the loot pool was diluted enough, and Ninja only exacerbated this problem.

A couple of points about this issue.
Firstly, in 2.0, all myth gear was job specific. I feel this is a GOOD thing and should probably have returned in 2.4.
Casters, healers, and tank are currently sharing their tomestone gear with each other, despite having in some cases (casters) significantly differing stat requirements.
I think it would be in everyone's best interest to save up their "free" tokens to gear up their job of choice specifically.

Secondly, I don't see ANY logical reason to have class loot in coil separated despite sharing the same stats.
There is no legitimate reason that a Bard and Ninja should not share the same boots/belts/head pieces etc, other than visual differentiation. This is simply diluting the already thin loot pool.
Same fact goes for Dragoon and Monk. Given that they should very reasonably share defense stats anyways, both classes could feasibly share left side raid loot also, as they already do with accessories.

This will still drive the player base to collect a mixed set of coil loot and tomestone loot, and have less gear going to waste, especially since there are at a minimum 2 classes each group does not bring to each instance.

Weapons from T13 however, you're still looking at a 1/10 chance, unless they eventually (and most definitely should given even more job in expansion) add a third loot chest for specific turns.

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I disagree with the ideas you are presenting, but I do agree with your point. Because the loot pool is so wide it's making it difficult for you to obtain the specific drops you may need. However, I do not agree with sharing left side. Monks benefit from skill speed, Dragoons do not. Ninjas benefit from Skill Speed, Bards do not. Shrinking the loot pool would only make it harder to get needed stats for your class. This is currently an issue for summoners at the moment. Summoners do not benefit from spell speed and currently there is a ton of it on the gear shared between casters. I actually feel like the loot between these classes should be split instead of grouped.

I do however feel like there needs to be a way for people to get the drops they need because running coil indefinitely with the hopes of getting gear is no fun.
I do not play this game to gamble, I play this game to progress so I can move onto other challenges so that I can challenge myself and have fun. My group had to run T9 somewhere around 80 times before the tank coat dropped. Pre 2.4, Pre-echo, and echo combined. This is an absurd amount of time wasted trying to get 1 piece of loot and even had we been clearing week 1 we wouldn't have been able to get it before 2.4.

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Originally Posted by IsaacDamodred

Luck? I never spoke of luck as a deciding factor. Luck this, luck that, luck is bullshit, quit holding onto an imaginary feel-good. Before you tell me to "MAKE UP MY MIND" do me a favor and reread my arguments. There is no reason for me to make up my mind as I NEVER ADVOCATED LUCK IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM! /facepalm

I pay for this game and I say NO FREE ITEMS. How hard is that to understand? You want to throw a wrecking ball at loot all because you cannot get an item in the End Coil? Well, wait for the weekly lockouts to be removed. Patience, it's a virtue, XD.

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"It's not luck damn it, it's random chance!"

That's your entire, pedantic argument summed up in one sentence.

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Originally Posted by Amanduz

Thanks for your comments I stay to my opinion and suggestion and believe a modification like that will result in an overall performance increase of the game and higher customer statisfication.

However thanks IsaacDamodred for your value comments but as you mentioned yourself you did not clear Titan Extreme yet (which is really old content) which makes you not the right person to judge on current progression content without any experience. I am only talking on the weekly lockout contents which is currently T10,T11,T12 and T13.

The old content without weekly lockouts I dont talk about.

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I agree with Issac. Only because it's RNG it's luck. Either you have it or don't. It's not unfair or fair. It's just luck. Why make it better to your needs. Like Issac said, it wouldn't be rare anymore or legenedary if you prefer. It would just be a common drop if it were a token if you ran it 5 times. That would make gear like how poetics are. Just a simple grind.

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Originally Posted by LazyMemories

I agree with Issac. Only because it's RNG it's luck. Either you have it or don't. It's not unfair or fair. It's just luck. Why make it better to your needs. Like Issac said, it wouldn't be rare anymore or legenedary if you prefer. It would just be a common drop if it were a token if you ran it 5 times. That would make gear like how poetics are. Just a simple grind.

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So you want to feel special and don't want the other people running exactly the same content as you to reap the same rewards. It's not special, you didn't get that gear because you accomplished something they didn't. You got the item because a random number generator picked a random number. You're not special, your gear isn't special, and you're no better than anyone else who has cleared the same content.

If a token system was added, here's what I would do: Every X clears you automatically earn a token. Your counter resets when you either earn a token, or earn a drop directly. RNG is still in effect, but not as harsh to those with less luck.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

So you want to feel special and don't want the other people running exactly the same content as you to reap the same rewards. It's not special, you didn't get that gear because you accomplished something they didn't. You got the item because a random number generator picked a random number. You're not special, your gear isn't special, and you're no better than anyone else who has cleared the same content.

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Doesn't mean I not going throw a fit if some gear I want I don't get. I'm fine waiting a week for another try or for whenever the Devs decide to make coil playable everyday like how people are farming high allagan.
I for one can wait. If the RNG gods decide to bless me so be it.

I'm actually in favour of a "Token" system being put in place... why? Well because it does favour people that DO run the content on a regular basis and because it does show that the person earns their gear through a degree of skill rather than luck, which is not an indicative of a person's skill or lack thereof.

I had to do a total of 48 runs to get my High Allagan Healing Coat to drop and it was, hands down some of the most frustrating times I've had with the game, I reached a point where I flat out wanted to quit the game, and it's not because the game's not fun or that the content is unrewarding... but rather because it feels exceedingly unfair because you're stuck having to solely depend on random factors, while other people do less work than you, to get more content (sometimes less to, I'm not forgetting the nature of RNG).

What I gathered from the thread were pretty much 2 things:

1) Make it so a player that clears the content X amount of times gets a token, which is tradeable at a specific location for one piece of loot - and to prevent this from being abused - make tokens obtainable/tradeable weekly and of course, rolling and winning a drop will also lock you out of said token for the week. This way, gears aren't cappable too fast in any Raid content and still makes players have to work to get them.

2) Make it so that after you clear "x" or "y" content, and don't get any drops - you earn one token and are able to trade a number of them at a specific location. Say x15 or so tokens for a chest or leg piece and maybe x8 or so for gloves, boots, helm and maybe slightly less for accessories - but have said "store" locked out after you do make a purchase for a week.

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Originally Posted by Risecchi

I'm actually in favour of a "Token" system being put in place... why? Well because it does favour people that DO run the content on a regular basis and because it does show that the person earns their gear through a degree of skill rather than luck, which is not an indicative of a person's skill or lack thereof.

I had to do a total of 48 runs to get my High Allagan Healing Coat to drop and it was, hands down some of the most frustrating times I've had with the game, I reached a point where I flat out wanted to quit the game, and it's not because the game's not fun or that the content is unrewarding... but rather because it feels exceedingly unfair because you're stuck having to solely depend on random factors, while other people do less work than you, to get more content (sometimes less to, I'm not forgetting the nature of RNG).

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Totally can agree to this. Took us 40+ clears to get T8 shield and BRD ring, and don't even get me started on the T9 coat. We've already seen two repeat drops in FCOB and just yesterday we got three pieces of DRG gear in our T10 - T12 runs and lo and behold, we don't have a DRG.


At some point you lose patience and just want the gear to drop so you can move onto something else. With RNG, it's quite possible you will never see needed loot while the content is relevant. So even if you cleared T13 the first week, your weapon may not drop till the week before expansion in which case, that mad dash to get that loot week one would be largely wasted. If there's any reason I'll quit this game it'll be because of the RNG. A token system would've been a godsend for these three pieces of loot so we did not have to do a nearly combined total of nearly 200 clears to get just three pieces of gear.

http://i.imgur.com/h8oAdT2.png

See this? It's an achievement item for clearing it once. How hard would it be to add a token item to the 10 clear achievement that could be exchanged for any choice of dreadwyrm gear including weapon? It covers that one piece that just doesn't want to drop, it doesn't break the overall loot distribution of an rng loot system, and it adds merit to clearing stuff early.

For normal gear there is an token system alternative to make sure that people aren't RNG'd out of gearing but for weapon there is no alternative, it is a higher ilevel than the token alternative.

Tomes are the only "token" system we need.

Aiming Bracelet...drops..THREE times.. in a Row.. In T7...
THREE...TIMES..
This might be my frustration speaking but.. I would LOVE some kind of Loot system where you get SOME sort of Tome or Token or whatever to exchange for a gear piece. People could gear up twice as fast for coil, it would be less frustrating, just something better than constantly relying on the RNG! I usually don't let the RNG get to me but..being in a farm party where I had a chance to win something only to be denied when the High Allagan Bracelet of Aiming to show up literally three times instead of something else has really annoyed me.
The stupid healing choker dropped twice too..

Just wish there was something. The RNG is frustrating.

*/semi-vent over*

I think their problem is to keep the Data low for servers!
To add the counter on already existing things like achivements is possible but only works once.
I think they are searching for a method that can be used more frequently than just "once"...

A very interesting way is the Antique gear we can get from new dungeons and i think thats a big step into the right direction. However, it is not perfect and still uses a bit much server space...

SE already has plans for a token system, but they're not going to be implementing it until 3.0
/themanythreadslikethis

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Originally Posted by Amanduz

There is a group which cleared 4 times 3rd Coil. They got 2x WHM cane and 2x nin Dagger (they dont have nin). This means they cleared 4 weeks and put lots of hours in to make this possible. Only person who got loot was the WHM. The other 7 people are already frustated.

Two of them quit already and going to play WoW.

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Off Peak have 2 persons quitting?