Skill / Spell Speed Weight Balancing

This is a Suggestion, not a study or a quarry.

This isn't meant to revamp any of the jobs in particular (i.e. DRG and SMN) as to innately make better use of Skill / Spell Speed. I intend only to at least not make it a wasted stat for any class/job.

Current Issue:

As it stands, crit rating affects everything that has damage and the capacity to crit. Determination further affects any ability which will auto-crit, i.e Bootshine, [60s] Life Surge, or [120s] Kassatsu, (though on average it will have less weight than crit in a job without auto-crits).
In comparison, Speed affects only direct damage done by GCD abilities. Not just only direct damage done; it affects neither auto-attacks or oGCDs. GCD direct damage only. No effect on DoTs, no effect on damage CDs, no AA... It affects durational (buff) CDs only in plateaus, by allowing an extra ability to be used, or, more often, making up for mistakes in oGCD usage during the duration). Its only unique advantage is in that Fey Light/Glow is a multiplier, not a flat addition, to the Skill/Spell Speed stat.

Further:

Because of the change in rotation, Speed is decent enough for Monk, especially at a couple plateaus, and BLM, which has neither oGCD damage nor AAs, loves the stuff. Speed-BLM sacrifices only some of the burst/dynamics of its proc damage, and in exchange pulls out higher average dps and can deal better with some of its mobility limitations.
However, DRG would require close to 700 skill speed in order to adjust its rotations, and the stat weight lost in crit and det (even if only reaching that speed and adjusting the rotation during a Fey Light period) in order to support that adjustment would cost much more than it would gain. In the meantime it serves only to ensure full B4B usage and otherwise desyncs important CDs from their ideal places in rotation. The situation with SMN, give or take the issue with buff desync, is even worse. Spell speed can allow you perhaps another Ruin (rather than Ruin II) during the burst rotation without losing part of the buff window to oGCD casts (where avoidable via Ruin II), and maybe allow another ruin per minute. All other damage is unaffected.

Suggestion:
Allow Speed to affect roughly the same amount of elements of damage-dealing as Critical Strike. What parts it cannot affect, Speed will make up for in different ways, tending slightly towards utility rather than average dps. It will end up truly useless for no job, though further preferred by jobs already preferring it. In plain notes:
- Allow Speed to affect auto-attacks. (Including pet AAs)
- Allow Speed to affect "output" cooldowns. (See below)
- Allow Speed to affect animation times.

Speed still will have no effect on DoT damage. However, it will now have an equal effect on auto-attacks and direct damage cooldowns, and, in a sense, a faintly doubled effect on durational cooldowns (half analog, half plateau-ed as before). In place of Critical Strike's affects on damage-over-time, these "output cooldowns" will not only effect the cooldowns that Critical strike may affect directly or indirectly (from Jump to Presence of Mind), but also cooldowns that are less directly offensive / "output-changing" like Invigorate, Infuriate, and Aetherflow, providing a slight utility bonus to the stat.

Note: Survival and defensive cooldowns will not be affected, since Critical Strike and/or Determination will have no effect on them, with the exemption of Second Wind. I have still decided to skip any effects on Second Wind, too, simply for categorical reasons (as it neither affects healing 'output' nor offense).

>> Example list, might not be quite complete:

Jump, Spineshatter Dive, Dragonfire Dive, Life Surge, Power Surge, Leg Sweep, Blood for Blood; Internal Release, Perfect Balance, Steel Peak, Shoulder Tackle; Raging Strikes, Quelling Strikes, Hawk's Eye, Barrage, Flaming Arrow, Blunt Arrow, Repelling Shot; Goad, Ninjutsu, Kassatsu, Shukuchi, Ten, Chi, Jin; Swiftcast, Surecast, Aetherial Manipulation, Convert; Cleric Stance, Presence of Mind, Divine Seal, Shroud of Saints, Fluid Aura; Aetherflow, Energy Drain, Sacred Soil, Rouse, Whispering Dawn, Fey Illumination, Embrace, <all offensive Carbuncle abilities>; Fester, Bane, Enkindle, Spur, <all offensive pet abilities>; Fight or Flight; Berserk.

:: Why the animation speed increase? > To prevent dps loss due to cutting into shortened GCD windows by using oGCDs. If impossible, so be it. That would then just have to be an irritant/drawback to take into consideration as DRG and NIN especially.

Likely outcomes:

Speed Monks strengthened slightly and certainly would lose the TP penalty that comes with stacking Skill Speed. Given that later change, Bootshine will likely (further) relegate Crit to Monk's least worthwhile stat, depending on one's plateau.
Ninjas will likely still prefer crit after reaching their closest plateau, especially if animation times are not reduced. If they are, however, Haste will affect Huton ease of uptime and Suiton frequency where Crit would have no or negligible effect, can plateau for an added Ninjutsu into a Huton period during Fey Light, and may well outdo crit slightly.
Dragoons can now use Skill Speed decently, although it will be far from an ideal stat. It will no longer desync CDs from rotation, and can help with burst and utility. Crit and especially Det will probably still be superior unless reaching enough Speed for the extra Thrust combo plateau.
Bards will be similarly effected. If add phases would have previously pushed in sequence just before CDs were ready, this will cover that. In all other senses it is still inferior to Crit due to River of Blood, and likely inferior to Det due to Bloodletter damage itself.
BLMs have a further hayday--may pull speed/crit further towards speed slightly.
SMNs will no longer fine Spell Speed perfectly useless, and it may even help very, (very) slightly with their mana issues due to increased Aetherflow frequency.

P.S. Another easy way to make Spell Speed much more useful to Summoners would be to slightly buff the the Spell Speed buff proc from pet critical strikes and have it cause Spell Speed to affect the frequency of mana ticks.

Sidenote: it feels silly for Speed alone to be split into physical and magical variants of the stat. Just consolidate them both into a single 'Speed' or 'Haste' stat and be done with it. Paladins and Bards will rejoice for the reduced Stoneskin/Song cast times, and they both could use exactly that...

Rather than making a new thread, I will simply be necro'ing this one.

Another option

Have skill/spell speed:
- Affect (pet/personal) Auto-Attacks.
- Affect pet GCD and cast speed.
- Affect TP tick frequency.
- Affect MP tick frequency during Shroud of Saints and under the effect of the Arcanist Spell Speed buff (from pet crit).

In this way, there is no point in the course of a long fight at which Skill Speed is entirely wasted except by the skill of the player. If one cannot achieve a certain dps-increasing plateau of ability rate, he can alternatively hold back and use abilities at their original GCD and benefit from increased TP regeneration speed. It is unlikely that one will go more than two minutes without being able to consume 400 TP before being able to access a new plateau; Invigorate should not therefor go to waste.

(As in the last version, DoTs remain unaffected thus avoiding the issue of, say, Chaos Thrust to eventually completing in two-thirds the time of Disembowel, or suffering lost mitigatory uptime on moves like Dragon Kick when they are shortened to match other offensive debuffs. Gameplay will be slightly affected, but that is all.)

Issue: Haste will remain inferior for AoEs and other high TP-cost abilities, as only the tick speed is increased, benefiting basically an average TP rate of expenditure or average-cost abilities. (The only thing that would prevent this is a direct TP scaling, wherein, for instance, a DRG at a 2.35 GCD would have a Doom Spike TP cost of 150.4, which would cause almost exactly equal dps over the same TP between a speed-based and det-based DRG spamming Doom Spike. My dislike of this may be partly aesthetic (where synced numbers would not follow the typical multiples-of-10 TP costs in place, and partly because I see haste as being best for a relatively straightforward range of activities (in this version).)

:: I realize the improvement of Spell Speed for WHMs is minimal, but they have at least thus far been the job more willing to take on Spell Speed. The SCH improvement will not heavily devalue crit, as its worth is first dependent on the uptime of a critical-based buff. May need tuning for SCH. I see it as being fine for SMN even if seemingly slightly OP; it is still no significant dps increase short of a long fight.

Sidenote: I would like to see Skill Speed, and potentially all other secondary stats to match it, buffed to the point where an i90 DRG could reach a(near-)optimal rotational adjustment if greatly geared into Skill Speed, or a Monk/Ninja at moderate Skill Speed gearing. It would be nice to finally see Determination rank at the same value per point as other secondaries as well, allowing for more ostensible comparison and removing the automatic preference towards Determination on relics (due to the same cost for an automatically higher value stat compared to crit and speed.)
-- It would also likely be beneficial for the secondary scaling/growth with ilvl to be tapered off some to achieve this (higher at low ilvls, less change). In short, I would like for gameplay-changing levels of secondary stats to be available with less than just a obsessive level of the stat on an i130 player.

First sidenote also holds. Combine Skill Speed into one "Speed" stat, and have Fey Light and Fey Glow alternatively affect caster and physical classes. If a hybrid comes out who actually uses the alternate side for more than just Flash... let them benefit from both. In the meantime, I look forward to the accelerated songs and PLD-Stoneskin.

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Edit:

Scratch all this (the above post and the one now hidden ^).

In the end, I've come to think that a simple Determination-like bonus to DoT and AA damage would probably be best. I simply would also like some manner of TP-scaling or TP refresh tick-scaling to be attached, and for Spell- and Skill-Speed to be consolidated in gear into one stat, and hope that the linear growth of the stat (which, as it concerns rates, will in fact give a slowly exponential effect, subpar at low numbers and superior at very high numbers) might be reconsidered.

If you need reasons, here are a few:
- The global DoT tick is something we can currently track, although I'd love to have a UI element for that in Heavensward, or an eventual add-on for it. Ticks running at different speeds, not so much.

- Different speed ticks, starting at different times, could literally mean near infinite Bloodletter, you could line up the ticks to never go off at the same time (6 DoTs meaning a chance every half-second even without any bonus SS), thereby never wasting a multiple DoT crit. I mean, I'd love it, but then I wouldn't--probably right about when the Bard's doing twice the Dragoon's SS target on the boss with BL while also multi-DoTing various adds.

- Barrage can always fit, albeit with little window, up to 3 AAs or 6 extra attacks, but cannot fit an extra set in even with a 2.80-AA bow with anything less than a 12% speed increase [2.23 GCD, or >~610 SS]. As such, SS otherwise could not benefit Barrage in almost every case at less than disgustingly high amounts.

- The main advantage of SS, rotationally, is improved buff (or non-DoT debuff, e.g. Dragon Kick/Dancing Edge) coverage, eventually allowing additional GCDs within their duration. At certain additional plateaus, new rotations become viable that often have to do with sacrificing one debuff's (again, non-DoT) constant uptime in favor of making that debuff cover a larger amount of potency (thereby "getting the most out of it"). (For example, you can now just barely fit 2 extra GCDs into your Dragon Kick/Dancing Edge, but, due to the nature of stances/combos, you must in this case either replace 2 GCDs early, or be 1 GCD late.) At this point, the advantage of SS is to reduce the window (and potential potency) in which one is un-buffed. If AA were to scale with SS, it would defeat the benefit of closing this window, whereas a Det-like bonus would not.

[To give a concrete example (sleighted for around 430-490 SS), with 5>t>4 seconds left on Dragon Kick and Twin Snakes at their respective stances, one could instead Bootshine and True Strike in order to gain (up to) 75 + 50 potency at the cost of 15 and 14 potency as Dragon Kick falls on the Couerl move and Twin Snakes on the Dragon Kick. This leaves a 1-GCD period in which one or the other buff is missing. It is possible, but avertable, for an AA to fall into this period. (It would technically even be a dps bonus to turn around and prevent the AA from going off if there is less than 9% remaining progress before reapplying either buff, but that would also be inhumanly coordinated...)

But, let's say you've only between 3 and 2 seconds left, just enough for 2 GCDs exactly. The natural choice then would be Boot-True-Demo, as you'd only lose 7 potency from no-DK on Demo, but you'd also lose an additional 15 on DK, 22 more than the previous 29 potency loss. You're still gaining 50, and up to 75 (subtract bonus by half your crit percentile), but losing at least 51 SS. This could be due to either using a non-stance ability, out-of-range movement, or low SS. And whether it was one of the other causes or SS is what affects the potential AA potency loss. You will be losing each buff for up to 1.9 GCDs (guaranteed 10 potency loss), and both for up to .9 GCDs (likely enough 20 potency loss). By SS shrinking the GCD, the chance of an AA falling into this zone decreases. However, if SS were to increase AA speed as well, there would be no bonus in this context. In this case, SS as it stands, except at extreme numbers (e.g. 1.65 GCD with a 3.3s-AA weapon), cannot prevent AA potency loss entirely, but it will shrink the chance of the double penalty or a second attack, keeping the total loss at around around 61 potency instead of 71-81 (keep in mind there is still a bonus of some 110 potency, or a net gain of 60-30). However, to take this further if AAs were to be affected by SS (i.e. in the same percentile as the GCD is affected), the further a weapon is above 2.15 in base AA speed, the more SS with each point would increase the chance that a weapon will double-hit within this gap, rather than closing said gap, running contrary to the original bonuses of SS.

*Of course, then there's the flip side. If SS acts like Det for AAs and only AAs, AA weight is increased. Each miss is a bigger loss. So I guess I've just run myself in a circle.

*To be clear, I don't feel strongly one way or the other about AA speed vs damage increase from SS. It just makes sense that both would be increased as 'periodic' effects. Aesthetically, at higher SS levels, AA speed increase may be more fitting instead. Just make those 'periodic' effects include Sword Oath too and we're balanced.
(In very certain conditions SS increasing AA frequency would do more for PLD Oath-dancing than SS increasing AA damage (they are dealing with a fixed, brief, nonrotational window of opportunity - the benefit of an extra attack within that window could be worth more than additional damage to each attack, as each AA will hit for 25% naturally and about 75% more through the Oath potency, compared to Shield Oath). However, as it is near impossible to control how long into Sword Oath the first AA will appear, and this will certainly make more difference in a brief Oath-swap than anything short of extreme SS, its benefit would be finicky at best, while a Det-like bonus would be useful in every context, albeit to varying degree (as the value of attack power is always dependent on frequency...).

**I do however think TP scaling of some sort is necessary. The stat would otherwise have to be overpowered in a TP-flooded setting to make up for how poorly it would perform by comparison in a TP-restricted setting. My (mostly aesthetic) preference is increased frequency of TP ticks, rather than each ability's cost being reduced to some prime number (DK now cost 53.9 TP!) with a decimal and seeing my TP bar at some 533 TP when I'm readying to Invigorate (the .438 portion hidden). This would however favor classes with lower average TP costs compared to their rate of attack. (Bard, especially, might slightly feel the backlash in this, especially whenever Straighter Shot somehow starts to proc endlessly. However, I don't think it would be significant enough for them to forego the stat more than they would otherwise, or see their class as being singled out by any significant difference is SS-weight. It will, at least no longer be a dead stat. It will remain rotationally useless beyond more easily fitting 3 DoTs (think single-target) into the same 20s buff, or an extra Heavy Shot or two per minute, but at least it will affect DoT damage, which is a significant enough portion of total especially at lowish Crit (few BL procs) and in multi-target situations. Tldr: as a Bard, I'd still prefer to have faintly less benefit from a formerly dead stat than see my Wide Volley cost 103.6 TP) In short: As much as your speed for expending TP (per average rotation) is increased, your speed for getting it back is increased.

***By "reconsidered" I mean that I hope it will eventually be made linear in effect, rather than in growth (which on a derivative stat becomes exponential). In other words, it would have to taper off, each point affecting the same percentage of the then-remaining GCD. Or at least average the two growth arcs. Something to give it a bit more low-end value, and less extreme high-end. I realize this pans out rather differently between its plateaued effects to rotation and its smooth effects on periodic damage, but consider: if SS's DoT effects followed the same progression of the GCD, at 400 SS (~2.44 GCD) DoTs would be doing 2.5% more damage. 450 -> 4.6%. 500 -> 6.8%. 550 -> 9.2%. 600 -> 11.6%. 650 -> 14.1%. 700 -> 16.8. 750 -> 20%... The steps here, from 450 to 750, would be 2.2, 2.4, 2.4, 2.5, 2.7, 3.2... (Disclaimer: rounded to 1 decimal when writing these down; progression may not look as smooth as it ought.) Over 300 SS, the increase in value per point of SS has already increased by ~45% (or, percentage effect per point at 750 (409 added) is 16% greater that of at 450 (109 added)).

****Why consolidate the two stats into one? Same as always. An entirely 'Skill'-based class (no puns, please), gets 100% effect out of its gearing. An entirely 'Spell' based class gets 100% effect out of its gearing. But hybrids like PLD or Bard are not affected across their entire arsenal by whatever skill side they gear. This is both QoL, and balance.

The exact effect to which skill/spell speed will have in 3.0 isn't set in stone, yet, however, it's been stated that it's going to scale (in some form), albeit with some restrictions -- so as not to make it wildly overpowered as time goes on.

An example of the changes to spell speed were given in the interview (i.e. it would increase damage of DoTs, in 3.0), however, this is subject to change.


[Source: http://www.famitsu.com/news/201503/14074044.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orrias

The exact effect to which skill/spell speed will have in 3.0 isn't set in stone, yet, however, it's been stated that it's going to scale (in some form), albeit with some restrictions -- so as not to make it wildly overpowered as time goes on.

An example of the changes to spell speed were given in the interview (i.e. it would increase damage of DoTs, in 3.0), however, this is subject to change.


[Source: http://www.famitsu.com/news/201503/14074044.html

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SS won't literally increase the damage of DoTs, but I think SS will affect DoTs in the same way they affect our Action Abilities.

I'm actually REALLY excited about this, because of the endless theorycrafting possibilities... Optimal Skillspeeds to get 1/2 additional DoT ticks taking into consideration TP usage. Discovering SS thresholds so you're not clipping DoTs and maximising skill usage. So much to do :D Summoners are gunna be so sick in 3.0.

in there it says what ast 2 stances are

"pure healer" and "barrier"

so its for anyone that cant decide if they want whm or sch
i see it becoming very popular

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dervy

SS won't literally increase the damage of DoTs, but I think SS will affect DoTs in the same way they affect our Action Abilities.

I'm actually REALLY excited about this, because of the endless theorycrafting possibilities... Optimal Skillspeeds to get 1/2 additional DoT ticks taking into consideration TP usage. Discovering SS thresholds so you're not clipping DoTs and maximising skill usage. So much to do :D Summoners are gunna be so sick in 3.0.

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Assuming this is the route they go I guess it finally means we'll get individual DOT timers instead of the global tick. Hopefully it also means they will be in the combat log at long last. One can only hope! :P

It also means all of the work I've done this month to reworking SS and DoT clipping in my models and recalcing weights will be a complete waste, lmfao :(

Gutted. Ah well. At least there's more things for me to do!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orrias

The exact effect to which skill/spell speed will have in 3.0 isn't set in stone, yet, however, it's been stated that it's going to scale (in some form), albeit with some restrictions -- so as not to make it wildly overpowered as time goes on.

An example of the changes to spell speed were given in the interview (i.e. it would increase damage of DoTs, in 3.0), however, this is subject to change.


[Source: http://www.famitsu.com/news/201503/14074044.html

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Thank you hugely for posting this. I hadn't yet heard of this interview. I'm glad to see it has at least been officially addressed, even if little of the solution seems finalized thus far.

吉田　『新生FFXIV』の開発現場では、『FFXI』でのヘイストがそうだったように、極端なパラメータ影響にならないよう、バトル全体のバランスを崩す恐れのあるスキルスピードやスペルスピードの効きを目立たなくさせていました。2.Xシリーズの運営を経てバランスも見えてきましたので、ボーナスパラメータの総括的な再調整を決めました。これによって、有効とされる能力値の種類が今後変わることも考えられます。

──スキルスピードやスペルスピードに、たとえばどのような調整が加えられる可能性があるのでしょうか？
吉田　あくまで例ですが、DoTに対して効果を及ぼすようになる、などです。たとえばスペルスピードが高ければ、そのぶんDoTダメージの威力が上がり、全体的なダメージ量が底上げされます。まだ調整中ですので明言は避けたいですが、これだけを見ても、スペルスピードの重要性がかなり高まるので、各ジョブでの重要パラメータには変化があると思ってください。

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dervy

It also means all of the work I've done this month to reworking SS and DoT clipping in my models and recalcing weights will be a complete waste, lmfao :(

Gutted. Ah well. At least there's more things for me to do!

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I honestly hope whatever changes they make neither cause Skill/Spell speed roughly equivalent in range of usefulness to Determination (BLM not really entering this consideration, tbh), therefore making it the same stat under different aesthetics, nor changes rotations except by allowing more moves within a given period. I want it to be the difference between 3 Full Thrusts per Chaos Thrust being feasible, Dragon Kick buff lingering into the Dragon Kick in a 9- or even 10-move rotation (instead of 6 stances +/- a DoT as at base speed), and a Ninja being able to reapply its Dancing Edge at under a half second of buff remaining each time, without letting any DoTs fall off. Plateau'ed still, sure, but different from a basic ever-useful dps increase, lending it some more stat diversity.

The effect of SS on DoTs also intrigues me as it can go either of two ways: affecting each ability proportionately to its duration, such that the same SS plateau would fit both Bio II and Bio I, or as a general increase to tick rate, wherein a SMN would constantly be slightly pushing forward or holding back on SS gearing (assuming he had such fine options) to achieve his next tick on Bio II, Shadowflare, Miasma, Bio I, next, next tick on Bio II, Shadowflare, Miasma, so on and so forth. Of course, the mere positioning of the cast relative to the global tick would still be huge, at least unless FFXIV goes the route of many other MMOs in using individual timers, each initially ticking at a certain time into the case (say... exactly at 1 second, adjusted by SS, and then at interval thereafter).

Edit: Brain fart; for each ability to be proportionately affected, they'd already have to be on individual timers.

I've only seen "SS" being used on the tralsnstions so I don't know wether it stands for Skill or Spell speed only or does it mean both. If it's only spellspeed affecting DoTs then yes, as someone earlier said, smn will get a slight boost. But if both skillspeed and spellspeed increases DoTs depending are you physical or magical dps, then mnk and nin will get quite a boost with mnk's Demolish + Touch of Death and nin's Shadow Fang + Mutilate, since those 2 are close to 2sec GCD compared to (current) smn's with 2.40ish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AniCelestine

I've only seen "SS" being used on the tralsnstions so I don't know wether it stands for Skill or Spell speed only or does it mean both. If it's only spellspeed affecting DoTs then yes, as someone earlier said, smn will get a slight boost. But if both skillspeed and spellspeed increases DoTs depending are you physical or magical dps, then mnk and nin will get quite a boost with mnk's Demolish + Touch of Death and nin's Shadow Fang + Mutilate, since those 2 are close to 2sec GCD compared to (current) smn's with 2.40ish.

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The Famitsu interviewer asked what would happen to the stats (including those found on weapons), come Heavensward, and what the re-haul of these stats would mean, as well as why they were doing it.

Yoshida said that with 2.0, he didn't want Spell/ Skill Speed to exert too much of an effect. He gave the example of Haste in FF11, but having not personally played FF11 much, I don't know how it works in that game, or how it's comparative to FF14's Spell/Skill Speed's as being problematic. He (Yoshida) seems to imply that the mechanic (i.e. Haste/ Spell/Skill Speed) is problematic for how the battle system works/ was designed. So it's been an issue that they've had from the very start.

The next (and only other) question pertaining to the same issue, asks whether both Spell Speed and Skill Speed are viable for changing, and if he could give an example.

He gave the example of higher Spell Speed increasing overall DoT damage, but made it apparent that it was just a tentative example. However, he stated that he wanted to really increase the importance of Spell Speed for each Job.

Yes, Haste is really rediculous in MMOs that have it, because it usually makes DoTs tick faster, and you also get to attack rediculously fast - so on classes similar to BLM where resourse management isnt a thing, they just scale to the point of absurdity.

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Originally Posted by Odowla

Yes, Haste is really rediculous in MMOs that have it, because it usually makes DoTs tick faster, and you also get to attack rediculously fast - so on classes similar to BLM where resourse management isnt a thing, they just scale to the point of absurdity.

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Even when hitting ridiculously fast though, it's not necessarily the highest weighted stat. Heck, it usually isn't... If anything, the longer, more rigid rotations of FFXIV compared to other MMOs is what gives it its largest potentially advantage, especially among melee dps, where the proportional frequency of lesser/derivative abilities can be reduced in favor of stronger attacks.