Positionals: Ninja and Monk - Food for thought.

So I ran a duty finder, to be brought into a random pt with a ninja and monk. As I'm doing my tank thing, I see the monk all over the place movin from back to side of the boss, while the ninja is more, or less, dpsing with little movement aside from necessary.
Then I questioned a bit of logic, as i'm sure many others have: Why is it that the rogue/ninja class has little to no positional requirements, whereas the pug/monk class relies ever so strongly on positionals?

When I think of a rogue/ninja, I think of assassination-type attacks.... stereotypically, assassinations would be done in such a manner that the target would not expect or see it. But the ninja can maximize it's dps to the fullest, even while attacking a target in the face.

Monks, which are stereotypically martial artists, have such positional requirements that if not followed correctly, dps is a poor minimum. More or less, Monks DEPEND on positions. Now, when I watch these good ol kung-fu movies, I don't see bruce lee attacking people only from the back or side like a sneaky little assassin. No, most movies show martial artists going head in, attacking their foes face to face.

Yes, Monks were in the game first before ninjas might have even be thought of, but I find it silly how ninja, a class stereotyped to be sneaky, has no positional requirements to boost dps except for trick attack which isn't even from the enemy's blind spot.

I do not play a monk or a ninja, so it would be interesting to see what other's think about this topic.

TLDR: Ninja and Monk seem to have a role reversal when it boils down to positionals requirements to output maximum dps.

Ninja gocuses on other things than positional requirements.

Between balancing mundras and dots/debuffs I guess they figured adding in to heavy of a positional requirement would be over-taxing on some peoples multi-tasking ability.

I say this not knowing much about monks though. Not really sure what they have to manage. So it's only just a guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jamez82

Ninja gocuses on other things than positional requirements.

Between balancing mundras and dots/debuffs I guess they figured adding in to heavy of a positional requirement would be over-taxing on some peoples multi-tasking ability.

I say this not knowing much about monks though. Not really sure what they have to manage. So it's only just a guess.

---

Would make sense if ninjas didn't have the same amount of DoTs as monks, even sharing the aspect of one them being behind a combo requirement. Even calling ninjitsu "complex" is a farshot because the only thing that matters is getting the last mudra correct with no repeats (Huton is any 3-mudra combination with ten being the last and, for example)

monks get DoTs and debuffs/buffs too
I too woulda thought ninjas to have to move more, but I guess that comes into play more when solo as you get to sneak up and attack from the front, but rather redundant skills when in party.

Hi, user of both jobs.... Previous to ninja... Monk was my favorite DPS, exactly because that, you could see a lot of LAZY monks around (I still yet seeing them, even in the latest dungeons....) TOTALLY IGNORING the positional strikes.... What I loved so much of MNK was the style of having to deal damage by moving and working it a lot, as well as maintaining the greased lightning all you can (Often cutted if the tank doesn't know how to support your greased lightning, basically, tanks running away when monsters are in the minimal HP, just so you follow and keep hitting until reaching next group and... Voila, you still having three stacks of greased lightning... [What I don't understand is why some tanks do this when I'm with ninja]).

Since ninja came, it became quickly my main, because I like its style, I like the fact it seems it has two damn lightsabers, I like the concept, the quests that comes with it, the ninjutsu, everything... But, indeed I'd like, as said in one of my posts, to see more presence of positions in the future, making it even harder and harder to use.... (In my opinion, the harder and more complicated a job is to use, [but of course, for it, rewarding] the more I like it.)

I hope that if they have to nerf ninja it'd be by adding positional requirements, just not reducing base potency of the skills in a lazy way... Seriously, it was a sad surprise when I noticed that dancing edge was applied even if I failed because sudden movements of the monster, then I noticed it, an error in the skill text... Arg

Yeah, this one really bothers me too. Conceptually it just doesn't make any sense.

That being said... quite frankly I think positionals should just go away completely with exception of Sneak Attack/Trick Attack because they make no sense whatsoever. They're just... dumb. They might give players more things to do in combat but thematically there is really no reason whatsoever for a lancer or pugilist to be attacking from behind.

Lancers are particularly bad in this regard because they gate entire skill chains behind those positional attacks, which is absurd on its face. Besides the fact that it's a heavier penalty than any other DPS class suffers for not meeting a single easily-missed requirement (just need the boss to turn around at the wrong time), it's just... why? What were you thinking? How does any of this make any sense to begin with?!

So I will say right here that the primary reason I do not play DRG or MNK regularly despite capping them both and going through the trouble of getting their AF+1 and relic weapons is because of this absolute nonsense. It just... it's not fun and it's just plain dumb. Also makes soloing with MNK an absolutely awful affair, which is... yeah, why? Just... why?

No thanks, lets not make ninja into a mnk wannabe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saigwa

So I ran a duty finder, to be brought into a random pt with a ninja and monk. As I'm doing my tank thing, I see the monk all over the place movin from back to side of the boss, while the ninja is more, or less, dpsing with little movement aside from necessary.
Then I questioned a bit of logic, as i'm sure many others have: Why is it that the rogue/ninja class has little to no positional requirements, whereas the pug/monk class relies ever so strongly on positionals?

---

Good monks don't have to move a lot either. If you're with a good monk it'll look like they're not even moving correctly if you've never played monk at high level(or if you've only been with okay monks). Why? b/c they stay at the point between flank and rear and scoot barely a cm to activate positional requirement. Gotta dodge? They'll just move to the other side and do the same thing.

As for the other stuff. Well.. imo balance/variety...unless people just want all the melee classes to play the same, but then there would be no point in even having multiple melee classes in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saigwa

Now, when I watch these good ol kung-fu movies, I don't see bruce lee attacking people only from the back or side like a sneaky little assassin. No, most movies show martial artists going head in, attacking their foes face to face.

---

I made a thread on the weak frontal power of Monks, and ranted in another thread about the positional requirements. It NEVER made sense for me as a Monk to play like a thief, I stopped playing for 8 months because of the not so fun play-style. I really want SE to do something about this because right now we have a thief/assassin in Monk clothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saigwa

Opening post

---

Your logic is incontrovertible. I never thought about it, and now I will never forget. Monk and Ninja will always be looked at as flawed in my mind. Every time I see them in a group now, I will think to myself, "Man that's backasswards".

+1

I don't care though, I'm still gonna wreck things leveling my monk :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saigwa

Now, when I watch these good ol kung-fu movies, I don't see bruce lee attacking people only from the back or side like a sneaky little assassin. No, most movies show martial artists going head in, attacking their foes face to face.

---

Bruce Lee never had a decent tank. If he had, you can be sure he'd have taken advantage of the situation. Bones and organs and muscles are in specific places, and creatures balance themselves in specific ways, so there are some moves that are only possible, or much easier, depending on what part of a target is toward you.

And once you're engaged in close quarters combat, you're no longer a sneaky assassin. The bad guy knows you're there. You can cut a bitch from any direction.

Really, though, it's just design/balance trumping lore, and MNK originated at a different time, under a different design philosophy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saigwa

Ninja and Monk seem to have a role reversal when it boils down to positionals requirements to output maximum dps.

---

I play NIN/DRG/BRD MNK is 30. The only positionals required for Ninja make sense as they are. Rear(in party) and front (solo). Granted I understand what you are saying.

However:

Mnks that don't make positional requirements indeed do not benefit from their added potency bonuses. However, they can at least still keep GL3 up as they are still granted the combos with its benefits and still benefit from Fists of Fire and also passive skills like Enchanced Twin Snakes.

Where a DRG if they can't flank with HT, they get no 15% increase period.

I wish DRG still had its combos regardless of positional and HT was non-positional to start with. Giving the positional requirements potency bonuses like MNK.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lexia

No thanks, lets not make ninja into a mnk wannabe

---

I Think you are missing the entire point of my thread. Ninja is not a monk wannabe... if anything, Monk is a ninja wannabe at this moment. Attacking from blind spots is a "sneaky" trait, that should be associated with a "sneaky" class. Then again, Ninja itself is a monk wannabe, since it attacks head on with an opponent - something that a "sneaky" class does not stereotypically do.

I personally do not enjoy the idea of position-based abilities. I would have preferred to see certain enemies take more damage from melee when hit from various positions, but instead MNK and DRG are fated to always have to dance around the enemy (and fight with tank positioning) to do optimal damage every time they fight something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lexia

No thanks, lets not make ninja into a mnk wannabe

---

This, who the hell wants every Job to play the same? Not me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeeDeggiThePunisher

This, who the hell wants every Job to play the same? Not me.

---

Not asking for every job to play the same. Just wondering why the class that is supposed to be sneaky, is not sneaky. And the class that is supposed to fight head on, hides in the opponents blind spot. Maybe they should have reversed it and gave ninja's blind spot positions. I dunno, since I'm not a DPS class. I just found the idea/logic behind SE's choice of skills for these two classes to be relatively poor in terms of context.

Why not just remove "postional" requirements from ALL classes? Its kind of a hinderence especially with all of the aoe's in this game that force you to move.

Can't really compare the two if you ask me. Monk is still the highest dps job in the game (single target).

Monk can keep their dps up constantly while Ninja has its bursts of dps and simmers down then bursts again.

Ninja has Hide openers from the front and the back of the target and also slashing debuff from the side. You could cross-class Impulse Drive, so that is one from the back too. Other than that there is no need to move around.

Because the average player is inherently lazy and in accordance with Yoshi's well thumbed copy of "How to Make an Effective WoW Clone in 6 Easy Steps" we will continue to see more and more of FFXIV get dumbed down and simplified until it, like WoW can be end game raided playing with your feet while watching a Dr. Who Marathon and assembling your Lego Deathstar. (Hail Sheldon)

We will continue to see SE take more moves to remove complexity and thought from 14. Heck the next job they are even taking out the base class. It has been mentioned in this thread that some want positionals completely removed so we can watch TV while we stand in one place and face roll our keys.

The OP is correct that the positional aspect of these two jobs should have been reversed. But MNK was introduced first while some amount of depth was still being toyed with. We all know frontal Sneak Attack was added not out of lore, or good design but because people didn't like not being able to use one of their abilities while soloing. Giving Ninja, a master of killing someone who doesn't even know you are there, a signature ability that can only be used while standing right in front of their target is dumb. But I am sure someone from SE will roll out the Wookie Defense to try and justify it.

Why are you saying MNKs will get to a poor minimum without positionals? An equally skilled/geared NIN will always get outdps'd by a MNK, while when MNK is ignoring there positionals (to a certain level) they're just below what a NIN can do, unless they run out of TP. Just did a T9 with both NIN and MNK, in the same party and NIN = utilities; trick attack and Goad is what makes them incredibly useful and especially for a MNK, MNK outdps'd the NIN by miles. Not even worth trying to catch up.

As a healer I'm actually worried a bit about the freedom NINs have because more than once I've seen lolnins in roulette (especially expert) who jump around, dps from the FRONT and eat cleaves of bosses, which I then have to heal. Why not give at least a partial flank or back requirement to Nins so they do actually stay in the safe zone? -.- I get that good NINs probably don't do this but since I start seeing this more and more it's pissing me off.

There's a bit of simple logic to it. We always traditionally believe a knife in the back is more deadly than a knife in the front...but I'd like to point out that our important bits back there are covered solid bone while our important bits in the front are only protected by our squishy squishy flesh. In reality it doesn't matter where the knife lands on your body...if it finds purchase, you're injured by it. Remember sneak attack only works from the front, implying it's used to stab in the stomach, heart, eye, etc.
Blunt force trauma is a slightly different animal, though. Stopping a blade with your bare hand will still get you cut, stopping a fist will get you a bruise. There are more options in the front of your body to avoid getting hit by or mitigating damage from a fist than there are a blade.Also make note of how many martial arts moves involve turning your opponent around to get their back to you. Even Bruce Lee's fight scenes emphasized this. In choreographed fights, it's actually important to have the "fighters" facing each other so the one "selling" the attack can see and react. In the real world, if you can get their back to you, it's favorable because they can't move their arms or legs and can't see you.
In short, a ninja isn't dependent on positionals for basically the same reason the Paladin, Bard, and Warrior aren't.
I still can't explain Dragoons, though. They really shouldn't be as reliant on positionals as they are. Especially since the spear is specifically designed to be used in frontal assaults.

Was just talking about this a few days ago. Completely agree!

I get what you mean from a flavor perspective, but as has been stated, from a gameplay perspective it really balances out. Nin has a lot more to keep track of during a fight to maintain optimal dps than a mnk, so they cut back on positionals. SE just decided that gameplay trumps flavor, and that is just fine by me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maleha

As a healer I'm actually worried a bit about the freedom NINs have because more than once I've seen lolnins in roulette (especially expert) who jump around, dps from the FRONT and eat cleaves of bosses, which I then have to heal. Why not give at least a partial flank or back requirement to Nins so they do actually stay in the safe zone? -.- I get that good NINs probably don't do this but since I start seeing this more and more it's pissing me off.

---

Goes for any Melee DPS regardless of having Positionals or not. Freedom of movement has nothing to do with stupidity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReplicaX

Freedom of movement has nothing to do with stupidity.

---

I would like to frame this statement and put it on my wall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ReplicaX

Goes for any Melee DPS regardless of having Positionals or not. Freedom of movement has nothing to do with stupidity.

---

I agree

....

"Positionals" for NIN comes down to it's mudras, MNK has a straightforward combo system with options on it's way before starting back from the start. Yes they gain more potency by directional attacks however they don't have a "mudra" concept to think of while moving from position to position for the most part their actions are straightforward.

When it comes to NIN they had to use mudra which is their "positional" movement it's just done in a different manner, they combo mudras based on the situation, Raiton for dmg, Suiton for Trick or sneak attack, Kaiton for AOE and Hyoton for increased att speed. The idea for them is to pause what they are doing and react to using the ninjutsu every 20 seconds which in itself can get rather complex since even when a jutsu is up when it comes to trash mobs it comes down to, is it worth using jutsu now, maybe I should just reapply hyoton, will I deal more dmg holding off and using doton on next set of mobs, a boss is coming up maybe I"ll just reapply Hyoton and wait.

With MNK however they have a one button "easy mode" you can say to gaining their greased lightning before a boss fight mainly that's the only time they would really need to execute the speed of starting out with max potency and then they can upkeep it as long as they are continuing the combo.

With NIN however they have to pause midway through their train of thought to reapply and even when they reapply it they have to consider is it worth to put up near the current progression of the fight or is there a better use for their jutsu.

So just because NIN don't move around a lot doesn't mean they don't have that same "movement" complexity as a MNK it's just focused on combos and currently the biggest difficulty with the NIN"s form of positional attacks is lag input which can cause mispresses in mudras.

If thief were a initial class it'd play like monk. But monk's already taken that gimmick and if you gave it to thf/nin it'd be a rehash. So, nin gets mudras instead, which I think are a pretty good mechanic. When I cast a spell on ninja it feels like I'm actively casting a spell. Moreso then the devoted casters who're just sitting there while a bar fills up.

Technically speaking, Ninja is SUPPOSED to have Positional Requirements.

• Sneak Attack is supposed to do more damage (alot more) when used from the front of the target.
• Dancing Edge is supposed to also do more damage when executed from the flank of the target.
• Trick Attack too is supposed to do more damage when executed from behind the target (fortunately it shares a cooldown with Sneak Attack, meaning it is one or the other of these two).

Point is, as a Rogue/Ninja you really should be using your positionals to be optimal. Unfortunately Square-Enix messed up when they programmed the Rogue/Ninja. Almost all Rogue/Ninja Positionals currently do max damage from any side of the enemy. Meaning there isn't really any point to moving into the correct position as a Ninja. I have this sneaking suspicion that the primary Ninja nerf that is going to occur tonight is in fact fixing the Ninja so that the positional attacks work as intended.

Ninja's skill ceiling is in execution of rotation, monk does not have a difficult rotation so its ceiling is in positional management. The idea is that optimal DPS should be difficult to hit on all jobs but in different ways.

Monk is about positionals and stacks while ninja is about mudras with combos and dots.
Monk's combos seem more straight forward more so like a press 1-2-3 button kind of thing while ninja requires ppl to weave in the ever so laggy mudra while keeping up dots from doing combos.
So yes lets keep ninja with little to no positioning as we don't need it to be a monk wannabe.
Can u imagine if they made mudras positional? Thatd be kinda dumb lol!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tharian

Technically speaking, Ninja is SUPPOSED to have Positional Requirements.

• Sneak Attack is supposed to do more damage (alot more) when used from the front of the target.
• Dancing Edge is supposed to also do more damage when executed from the flank of the target.
• Trick Attack too is supposed to do more damage when executed from behind the target (fortunately it shares a cooldown with Sneak Attack, meaning it is one or the other of these two).

---

Trick Attack and Sneak Attack both work as intended, and require positionals to deal full damage and TA's debuff. Dancing Edge was reported as a translation error, not a bug.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Ninja's skill ceiling is in execution of rotation, monk does not have a difficult rotation so its ceiling is in positional management. The idea is that optimal DPS should be difficult to hit on all jobs but in different ways.

---

This is true for the most part. As far as rotation goes, it's a give and take for balance. Each has something they have to worry about to optimize DPS, so it's a fair tradeoff. However, that being said, in terms of shear utility, survivability, and DPS potential on all targets (boss and non-boss) NIN is well ahead of MNK and miles ahead of DRG. This is where the prime discrepancy in melee DPS lies and not so much in the management of the job itself. To be balanced the order of total DPS potential (greatest to least) on 90% of all fights (boss and non-boss) should be DRG>MNK>NIN. That is, DRG should have the highest DPS output in 90% of all scenarios, followed by MNK and then NIN. SE seems to have recognized the discrepancy as well with the release of NIN, as they have already alluded in multiple forums that buffs/nerfs are needed to correctly balance the melee jobs against each other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saigwa

I Think you are missing the entire point of my thread. Ninja is not a monk wannabe... if anything, Monk is a ninja wannabe at this moment. Attacking from blind spots is a "sneaky" trait, that should be associated with a "sneaky" class. Then again, Ninja itself is a monk wannabe, since it attacks head on with an opponent - something that a "sneaky" class does not stereotypically do.

---

You can think it in another way.
As punches damage potential are much lower than good old swords, monks try to compensate it by aiming to critical points and to certainly hits them, they need move a lot (as front usually is a most sturdy and protected part of a body). Ninja on other hand just slash everything. And you don't do this tricky stuff in combat, just in preparation and assassination (i.e. on opener).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vespar

Why not just remove "postional" requirements from ALL classes? Its kind of a hinderence especially with all of the aoe's in this game that force you to move.

---

Yes, and also gives everyone ability to damage on the run and from any range. Every class has their own skillcap to differentiate good players from bad players.
NIN has their own set of problems like having to execute perfectly 15+ streaks of keys on the run and never fail a jutsu. Otherwise we would not see "150dps" ninja and there are many of those.