Why do DRG's protest the armor value trade off?

So I've not leveled a DRG to 50, but I DID level my WHM well beyond 50 with my Nexus.

I've heard people say DRG's need their magic defence buffed and I never understood this because like WHM and other casters, they have a higher defence of one thing but a lower defence of another, so it balances, right?

I don't know why, honestly. Maybe it's because in lore, the DRG is the standard close-combat infantry and therefore it makes sense for more physical defence? Also it seems like most of the AF armor for DRG is scale or metal, so I can see the point there.

I mean, as a WHM it's always nice to have more of my magic defence and honestly I think it makes sense, as casters.However you better believe I'm gonna dodge any physical attack that I can. There must be times where DRG finds the opposite situation good.

Casters always know they're gonna take more damage from physical attacks. I can sympathize with DRG's but would you rather have more magical defence and less physical or just have it balanced like BRD/MNK/NIN(?).


Note: This post was kind of on the fly, so what you see is just my train of thought. :p Please be patient.

I too am not an endgame DRG. I'm a MNK so it's all kind of transparent to me.

From what I have come to understand, there are a lot of magic based attacks in the endgame that are either very difficult to avoid - or completely impossible to avoid. So much so that that M.DEF deficiency becomes really apparent, really quick.

If I were a DRG, I'd want it more balanced like everyone else.

Mechanically, the fact that they wear scale mail would justify the higher physical defense value over (my MNK's) cloth and leather. I don't really get the M.DEF rating though. Assuming it is to counterbalance the higher P.DEF without making them tank-like.

Maybe a DRG (or someone smarter than I) can shed light on it.

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I've heard people say DRG's need their magic defence buffed and I never understood this because like WHM and other casters, they have a higher defence of one thing but a lower defence of another, so it balances, right?

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It would be balanced if our physical defense mattered at all. And it doesn't. There are very few unavoidable physical attacks in the game, you will never see a "physical Megaflare", for example. Many mechanics in Coil concern magic damage rather than physical damage. And when it DOES come to physical damage, like a dragoon pulling out the boss from the tank (which IS avoidable, instead), that defense won't save you from dying in 10 seconds or less.

Do you know when I should feel glad that I have a really high defense? In dungeons, when my AoE pull hatred from tanks. And even then, I'm not glad at all - because that should not happen and I can't use positionals attack to boost damage. And 1k damage is still going to break my spine if every mob deals that with just one attack.

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I mean, as a WHM it's always nice to have more of my magic defence and honestly I think it makes sense, as casters.However you better believe I'm gonna dodge any physical attack that I can. There must be times where DRG finds the opposite situation good.

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Leviathan Ex. The spinning dive attack is physical. Am I gonna dodge that? If I wanna survive, yes. Titan Ex, Landslide is physical. Am I gonna dodge that? Well I hope so, if latency allows me. Otherwise it's bye bye. I haven't played much Coil with my Black Mage, so I have no idea as to which other mechanics are physical in there, except for Circle of Blades in T7. But, you know, it's not comfortable when 1/3 of your life gets chopped away (1/2 if you don't have Stoneskin on, 2/3 if you also have Blood for Blood active).

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Casters always know they're gonna take more damage from physical attacks.

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Except they are not gonna get hit by ANY physical attack. Because there are none, if they are decent at dodging/using Manawall/don't pull aggro and use Quelling Strikes.

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I can sympathize with DRG's but would you rather have more magical defence and less physical or just have it balanced like BRD/MNK/NIN

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I have heard that you need a lot of HP to survive some mechanics in T12-T13, something like ~6k HP. While I have no idea if this is true or not, I know that I currently have 6k HP - but since I am a Dragoon I won't be able to survive that anyway. So to answer your question, yes - personally I'd rather not die when others would stay alive.

Interesting. I think one solution, and a very simple one, is to give alternate gear of the same level different defence values. A great example would be giving Tome gear higher magical defence and throwing the higher physical on the coil or alternate raid gear. This ensures that the trade-off is still there as they would possibly be forced to use different food or even a odd gear setup to balance your desired defence with the attributes[namely accuracy, in priority] correctly.

^That's all I can really think of other than strictly balancing it as you rightly desire. The AF gear would still keep its defence so the lore junkies won't rant.

It boils down to phy defense only being relevant when you tank, while most incoming dmg for healers and dps is usually magic dmg.

Would I take the magic and physical defense of a caster on my DRG? Hell yeah !

Physical defense doesn't matter at all for any job except PLD and WAR...

If you play all the melee dps jobs exactly the same, you could die several times on DRG while never dying on NIN and MNK... DRG takes a ton of more damage because of their low Magic Defense, and if you're taking physical damage your tank(s) either suck, or it's a mechanic where that added defense doesn't make a difference anyways...

It doesn't have to be balanced either, cause nobody will care if DRG gets to keep their high physical def, and still get the same magic def as MNK's/NIN's... I think they should have the highest to be honest, which could be one way to buff them.

From First and Second Coil, all of the sources of physical damage are the results of cleaves or telegraphed AoEs (such as Twintania's Plummet, Mesuline's Circle Blade, Swine from dragon bosses, and Monoclop's various swings/swipes) and can should be avoided. On top of that their damage usually isn't a joke either that the higher physical defense doesn't quite help (or in the case of cleaves, its meant to hit the tank and nothing else)

Sources of magic damage are typically from the mechanics are unavoidables. Examples being the Primal's ultimate (Aerial Blast, Hellfire, and Trembling before the might of the earth!), Muesline's fireballs and Ramen's Thunderstorm (if it targets the DRG directly).

The former should be avoided at all costs in competent parties to ease up on the healers, and the latter just ends up being extra damage for the healers to top off (or risk dying in some circumstances, such as aerial blast in farming parties)

Just understand that crafting classes have more MDEF then a Dragoon does, and you can already see the problem.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Just understand that crafting classes have more MDEF then a Dragoon does, and you can already see the problem.

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In that defense though, crafting gear's defense is more oriented toward "caster". Doesn't quite get the point across to why DRG's low magic defense is bad, just that it is.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

In that defense though, crafting gear's defense is more oriented toward "caster". Doesn't quite get the point across to why DRG's low magic defense is bad, just that it is.

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If a Crafting class is able to assemble anything close to a Battle Class in MDEF and in Dragoons case have more, that's bad game design regardless, which I would say is the point.

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Originally Posted by Morzy

TROLL POST

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OP LOGIC : SQUISHY DPS PHYSICAL ARMOR IS ENOUGH TO WITHSTAND BOSS' CLEAVE or SIGNATURE ATTACK

Actually none of you have really hit on the real reason DRG magic Defense needs to be buffed. Obviously if their magic defense is a bit lower than their Physical Defense, that would be just fine. In fact thats how it is on say a monk? or a NIN. But a DRG magic defense is literally 1/5 of their physical defense, its absurdly low. It needs to be more in line with the other classes.

A Dragoon's magic defense is equivalent to a Blackmages Physical Defense. Black mages are designed to never get hit physically or die instantly; Dragoons can't avoid most of the magic damage in the game. Maybe if you gave us Celes's Runic to function like Manawall, we could persist this way, otherwise, the defense tradeoff isn't a fair deal.

Dragoon is meant for slaying dragons (Ishgard lore etc), Dragons use breath attacks. Breath attacks are physical. Dragoon should have high physical defense obviously.

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Originally Posted by Ihm

Dragoon is meant for slaying dragons (Ishgard lore etc), Dragons use breath attacks. Breath attacks are physical. Dragoon should have high physical defense obviously.

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Can't tell if you were sarcastic or not. In the case of breaths, they'd be avoidable because it's a frontal cleave.

And even then, I got hit by a spit by an eft and it was magic damage...

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

If a Crafting class is able to assemble anything close to a Battle Class in MDEF and in Dragoons case have more, that's bad game design regardless, which I would say is the point.

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Because crafting armor is scaled in defense as if it were caster gear... A caster top of ilvl 48 would still have more magic defense than what's provided by Wootz ingot...

Meeh, we're just talking semantics now.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

Actually none of you have really hit on the real reason DRG magic Defense needs to be buffed. Obviously if their magic defense is a bit lower than their Physical Defense, that would be just fine. In fact thats how it is on say a monk? or a NIN. But a DRG magic defense is literally 1/5 of their physical defense, its absurdly low. It needs to be more in line with the other classes.

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Bards, Monk and Ninja all have a 2:2 Pdef:Mdef grade on their defense
Tanks have 4:4
DRGs have 3:1
Casters have 1:3

The problem keeps rolling back to the imbalance of unavoidable outgoing damage; all primal ultimates or unavoidable damage is dealt as magic, while the sources of physical damage do so much damage, that only a tank should be the only one taking it (cleaves) or be avoided all together (projected AoEs)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Can't tell if you were sarcastic or not. In the case of breaths, they'd be avoidable because it's a frontal cleave.

And even then, I got hit by a spit by an eft and it was magic damage...

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Flares casted by Bahambut are physical explodies that you can't dodge.

But we can cross-class Foresight..

Oh wait..

:(

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Originally Posted by Ihm

Flares casted by Bahambut are physical explodies that you can't dodge.

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If video games have taught me anything, explosions and bullets are always magical damage, even if the nature of it was mechanical!

...then again that same game has punches being magical damage and lasers being physical...

A breath of fire is a magic-based attack.

The only exception is twintania's fireballs. For some reason we can parry those.

My experience with dragoons: they die to everything in Ramuh. I keep stoneskin/adlo up on them, especially during add phase. Shiva is not so bad unless they screw up a mechanic. Nael, megaflare I adlo the dragoon because sometimes succor is not enough. If I'm on my WHM I make sure they have stoneskin up before anyone else. Final coils, our dragoon switched to main ninja so I have no experience with dragoons in FCoB but with all the magic based attacks that are unavoidable I think it would be a nightmare to keep them up. I know my friend's group has a dragoon and he dies a lot.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

I know my friend's group has a dragoon and he dies a lot.

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Then he's just bad or they're screwing up mechanics. So far the only thing I would say DRGs need "extra" care for (EDIT) in final coil in particular is the nerve cloud after the add phase in t11 (haven't gotten farther yet to say the rest). During progression I die as much as other people would if a mechanic was done incorrectly, but if you get to the point where the turn is regularly one-shottable and someone keeps dying then its a mechanics problem, not a "dragoon" problem.

And I've had blood for blood rolling, with no single target panic heals during those aoe phases and survived in shiva.

Ramuh is the only fight that was outright terrible, I would usually be the one to break people out (luck of the draw + always being in melee range) but in the last phase people could eat a thunderbolt and ground aoe from time to time where I had to actively dodge them just to survive.

When playing DRG in Syrcus Tower, Glasya Labolas big unavoidable AOE removed about half of my whole HP while It barely removes anything when playing any other jobs. It's then I realized how bad DRG magic defense is.

Glasya's AOE damage is determined by how well your party kills the little tether robots, and whether you have a scholar protecting you during the windup as well.