Enhancements to log to support Damage Per Second (DPS) Measuring Tool

Square Enix, could you please provide an official statement that you approve the use of third party programs which merely and only read the log files generated by FFXIV?

Could you also please enhance the log in-game to log every time a damage-over-time effect deals damage (roughly every 3 seconds)? Something like this:
> Gerrard Capashen's Miasma II on Titan ticks for 250 points of damage.
Of course, plus an option to disable this new kind of message on a per log tab basis.

This information is already available to the client (mostly) in the form of floating text over the monster or player. Adding this to the log file should not affect network traffic requirements in an amount that matters.

There are good players who are serious about self improvement. It would be very valuable to have a tool which displays how much damage individual members of the party have done over definable intervals. I am a professional programmer. It would be trivial for me to create such a tool which reads only the log files already generated by FFXIV (based on information obtained online).

Yes such a tool might increase the rate of harassment of players, but I think that the risk is overblown. Unfortunately, the reality is that these people will continue to use unauthoritized third party programs, and so I do not think that introducing an allowed option will reduce harassment. Rather, the current Square Enix policy of "no such tool allowed" harms only users who operate in good faith and avoid using such programs.

Please.

Including additional important information IMHO:

Currently, a tool which is based only on the log files will be far less accurate than a tool which reads memory directly or which snoops on network traffic. Damage measuring tools based on reading memory or snooping network traffic are easily customizable to allow the creation of other tools which offer unfair in-game benefit, such as additional real-time alerts which are otherwise not available. These additional benefits, such as additional real-time alerts, provide a real and tangible unfair benefits to certain players. The lack of an accurate tool based solely on reading the log files is causing more people to pick up tools which come with additions which offer unfair advantages. If Square Enix provided full support via the log enhancements proposed above, then fewer players would be enticed to use tools which provide an unfair in-game advantage.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
NO
NO
A THOUSAND TIMES NO

The risk is NOT overblown. It is a real, palpable scenario. This will make the community even more ruthless to non-veterans/hardcore players as it already is. The only defense people have is that use of those tools need to be done under the cover, and people don't talk freely about it in-game.

Making it official will introduce the concepts of "minimum DPS" and "acceptable DPS" INTO THE GAME, and while this won't affect statics much, since most of them already uses such tools and discuss them internally, the legalization of this will bleed that elitist culture to PF and DF groups (which comprise the vast majority of FFXIV players), and it will affect the ENTIRE social structure of the game

Thank you but no, we don't need this in our Eorzea.

NO

People are gonna get parsed ANYWAY, and if they suck, they might get kicked with no reason even given due to parsing being illegal. IF people HAD access to this tool, then they might be able to check their contribution to a fight.

We all know when tanks or healers aren't up to scratch, why not dps? But adversely, a tank really knows when he messes up, and can seek advice and help. A dps could be throwing out terribad damage, and actually think he's doing great. THIS is unfair. I don't care about carebears happy dream fantasy land, I want people to be able to analyse themselves. Tanks and healers can do it ( obviously ) why exclude dps?

And before ppl start raining tears " oh but ill get kicked because I have crap damage and cant be bothered to do anything about it"........well, tanks and healers get kicked everyday for not doing their job to some sort of acceptable level.

You can analize yourself using the tool already. Yoshida himself already said openly that he know about the tool just advised us to "keep it for ourselves about it".

Making parsers taboo within the game is what kept that WoW-like hostile atmosphere between and towards DPS classes at bay. We don't need that kind of attitude here. The taboo is pretty well placed, thank you.

There is no downside to a complete & accurate combat log.

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Originally Posted by Bixby

There is no downside to a complete & accurate combat log.

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Yes there is. The social implications of having numbers with which to judge people, and the extreme potential of the tool being misused to promote elitist behaviour.

And to add, when I was i90 "my friend" "checked" me with his "abacus" and look what happened? we discovered I was doing under 200 dps on a striking dummy. A week later I was doing 270. ( if people are interested, I had terrible buff uptime, animation cancelled bloodletters too soon and let dots fall off ) It was the best thing that ever happened in terms of my dps.

Like I said...

As the situation currently stands, the "abacus" can be self-used, or among friends, in static groups and FCs, and discussed off-game.
And it CANNOT be brought up in PF and DF groups because of the taboo.

This is in fact the best of both worlds. People can use it for self-improvement, people can discuss it in closed environments, all is well in the world.

Now, to take down the taboo and introduce the numbers to be freely talked about in shout, linkshells, PF and DF groups? THAT'S what would be a downside. That's asking SPECIFICALLY for the negative side of the tool, and no, we don't need that in our community.

Keep as it is, it's quite good the way it is right now.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Yes there is. The social implications of having numbers with which to judge people, and the extreme potential of the tool being misused to promote elitist behaviour.

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The combat log is already there. Making it accurate & complete would do nothing to the current situation re:third-party tools other than making third-party tools accurate. They would still be third-party, still Fight Club. SE doesn't need to change a single thing about their stance or make any public statements on the subject in order to simply make their combat logs complete & accurate.

Inaccurate/incomplete combat logs only increase the odds for stigmas, since the jobs that are heaviest in incomplete data (DoTs/pets, for example) appear to be performing worse than they are.

The OP actually asked for SE to take a positive stance about parsers, here:

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Originally Posted by GerrardCapashen

Square Enix, could you please provide an official statement that you approve the use of third party programs which merely and only read the log files generated by FFXIV?

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That's what I'm taking the "against" stance here.

Yeah, that part of the OP is silly & unrealistic.

I'm personally only saying what I'm saying: The combat log should be complete and accurate.

If a Bard sings Foe Requiem, so the Black Mage is able to get better damage output, should the Bard therefore be kicked for having lower damage than the Black Mage? That's the sort of situation parsers encourage. It disincentivizes making the group better, by placing the focus on being individually better than the rest of your group. Groups that resort to parsers can forget about getting the benefit of any sort of support skills. In fact, they can generally forget about ever being even half-way decent at playing, because their tools are encouraging them to play badly.

If you want to know how your DPS is, just look at how fast the mobs are dying. That's a far more accurate measurement than any number some parser can give you.


As for just adding more detail to the log, I don't think making it work better with parsers would be a good reason for it, and I don't see much other reason for it.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

People are gonna get parsed ANYWAY, and if they suck, they might get kicked with no reason even given due to parsing being illegal. IF people HAD access to this tool, then they might be able to check their contribution to a fight.

We all know when tanks or healers aren't up to scratch, why not dps? But adversely, a tank really knows when he messes up, and can seek advice and help. A dps could be throwing out terribad damage, and actually think he's doing great. THIS is unfair. I don't care about carebears happy dream fantasy land, I want people to be able to analyse themselves. Tanks and healers can do it ( obviously ) why exclude dps?

And before ppl start raining tears " oh but ill get kicked because I have crap damage and cant be bothered to do anything about it"........well, tanks and healers get kicked everyday for not doing their job to some sort of acceptable level.

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here's a thought... maybe they should try reading the tool tips for their actions? maybe they should play more to gain experience? maybe ask questions when there are doubts. a DRG not using Heavy Thrust should either play an easier job or uninstall. since no jobs are easier then DRG...

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Originally Posted by Bixby

There is no downside to a complete & accurate combat log.

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i 100% agree. there are plenty of games out there with quite the detailed score card. i've been playing DCUO for over 2 years now. and have never heard anyone give anyone any greif over their end results. even if they are lower then average. instead i hear people giving advice on power loadouts or which weapon to use n such.

The purpose of the battle log is NOT so it can be parsed by a third party tool! The purpose of a "battle log" is to give a player a chance to review what took place in battle to determine what took place in battle, ongoing or prior! Too bad the way the data is presented makes quickly skimming thru to find the information you find relevant impossible. And the battle log filters are contradictory and basically unusable.

Honestly the problem with the battle log is you NEED a third party parser to make sense of it. The battle log needs a complete overhaul. It should be easy for a human to comprehend first and foremost!

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

You can analize yourself using the tool already. Yoshida himself already said openly that he know about the tool just advised us to "keep it for ourselves about it".

Making parsers taboo within the game is what kept that WoW-like hostile atmosphere between and towards DPS classes at bay. We don't need that kind of attitude here. The taboo is pretty well placed, thank you.

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No you can't. It doesn't accurately read SMN dots.

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Originally Posted by BLaCKnBLu3B3RRY

here's a thought... maybe they should try reading the tool tips for their actions? maybe they should play more to gain experience? maybe ask questions when there are doubts.

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While I agree that those are good starts, they aren't the full story. Some classes have things that are rather unintuitive about their dps if you really break things down into the nitty gritty, and reading tooltips isn't going to be enough. To use a NIN example, if a player messes up their rotation and is about to drop Huton, but has Kassatsu up, at what point does it become worth using Kassatsu to reapply Huton instead of saving it for Raiton? That's something a tooltip isn't going to tell you. To be fair, a parser isn't going to tell you, either, but it's an example of something you can't find just from the tooltips. As for asking questions when there are doubts, that requires that people doubt themselves. Even ignoring the Dunning-Kruger effect, otherwise perfectly competent people can easily miss something that is blatantly obvious. I've had uncountable arguments with people about how dots function in this game even though everything I said about them should be obvious. And that's not even counting the one guy who swore up and down that you can only possibly get, like, 18 tics of Bio in a minute or some such.

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Originally Posted by Laraul

The purpose of the battle log is NOT so it can be parsed by a third party tool! The purpose of a "battle log" is to give a player a chance to review what took place in battle to determine what took place in battle, ongoing or prior! Too bad the way the data is presented makes quickly skimming thru to find the information you find relevant impossible. And the battle log filters are contradictory and basically unusable.

Honestly the problem with the battle log is you NEED a third party parser to make sense of it. The battle log needs a complete overhaul. It should be easy for a human to comprehend first and foremost!

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There are a good number of problems with the battle log. Let's see if I can count them:

1. You can't display seconds in the time stamps
2. Dot damage is not displayed at all
3. Ground based effects like Flaming Arrow aren't shown at all
4. Contagion isn't shown in the log
5. Enemies with the same name aren't distinguished in the log

I'm sure there are more, but that's what I can think of at the moment.

People are going to use a DPS parser regardless what SE says. And DPS parsers don't turn people into jerks. They come into the game that way. You know the ones that say "Know how to play your job!" And "You don't know the fight!" These people say hurtful things all the time to people. Why. Cuz they're Jerks.

My point is, parsers don't change people's behavior. They won't increase harassment or poison the community. In fact, your just as likely to receive positive feedback as you are negative.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

...That's asking SPECIFICALLY for the negative side of the tool, and no, we don't need that in our community...

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On youtube I can see a lot of real time parsing, TBH, it delivers how to "know to play the game". That's why a lot of ppl asking for it.
Maybe just ruin parsers by removing numbers in combat log, everyone read the numbers on screen. ^^;

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

Yes there is. The social implications of having numbers with which to judge people, and the extreme potential of the tool being misused to promote elitist behaviour.

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{{Citation needed}}

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

The OP actually asked for SE to take a positive stance about parsers, here:

That's what I'm taking the "against" stance here.

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Good for you. And it seems most other people here are disagreeing with you. And for good reason.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

We all know when tanks or healers aren't up to scratch, why not dps? But adversely, a tank really knows when he messes up, and can seek advice and help ... why exclude dps?

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There are dps checks in many fights.
Ifrits nails. Titans heart. Enrage timers. Heavensfall. Shiva's adds. The list goes on and on.
If you cannot pass these, then there is a dps issue and the dps needs to learn to get better. Unfortunately they will hold everyone back until they do. A tank and a healer can push out as much as they want but unless the DDs are doing their job it won't get you far. Exact same deal if a tnak can't hold enmity/swap effectively or a healer cannot react fast enough.

A parse or the knowledge of the exact dps each is putting out isn't needed. When you know there's a dps issue a generic glance in the direction of your damage dealers will usually be enough to show you who's slacking.

I would support this, but only on an individual basis. Meaning, after the fight ends, you can check your own individual DPS numbers, but not see anyone else's.

This would promote self awareness, and potentially learning to get better if you see your numbers and know they aren't up to par. But, it would also NOT promote using numbers to exclude people and/or create a toxic environment.

I used to play DCUO, and at the end of every battle, the parties numbers would show up for everyone to see. What this did was create a place where certain jobs were specifically excluded/banned from parties, i.e. "looking for DPS for xxx, no sorcery!"

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

If you want to know how your DPS is, just look at how fast the mobs are dying. That's a far more accurate measurement than any number some parser can give you.


As for just adding more detail to the log, I don't think making it work better with parsers would be a good reason for it, and I don't see much other reason for it.

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you sir have it right, if you kill fast then your doing good, if your killing slow you are likely missing and still just following timers for the combos

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I would support this, but only on an individual basis. Meaning, after the fight ends, you can check your own individual DPS numbers, but not see anyone else's.

This would promote self awareness, and potentially learning to get better if you see your numbers and know they aren't up to par. But, it would also NOT promote using numbers to exclude people and/or create a toxic environment.

I used to play DCUO, and at the end of every battle, the parties numbers would show up for everyone to see. What this did was create a place where certain jobs were specifically excluded/banned from parties, i.e. "looking for DPS for xxx, no sorcery!"

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no, no, and no, dcuo and other action based games like it are using the arcade ranking system or score system from fps games, we really dont need that

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Originally Posted by roninoftagrm

you sir have it right, if you kill fast then your doing good, if your killing slow you are likely missing and still just following timers for the combos

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To quote you: "no, no, and no." Mobs dying quickly only means that the group's combined dps is good. It's entirely possible to have good group dps while one of the players is doing horrible. Mobs dying slowly can also mean any number of things depending on mechanics. Or, yes, it can mean that your DD are bad and need improvements, but what the heck does "missing and still just following timers for the combos" even mean to a BRD or BLM? You're going to want to be able to tell the guy who isn't doing well what he's doing wrong, and you're gonna need more info than "mobs are dying slow whenever you're around."

even so its meant to be a group effort. If you see for the first time someone using skills in an aion weave fashion, then sure kick em from group, because they think they'll steal the aggro(dps), want to use less tp(less experienced tank), or using macro combos which even i wouldnt use in the higher difficulty runs.

One problem from reading the forums is that i dont see a min/max time to beat/burn/destroy x add/boss/mechanic before wipe/danger zone, which would include links to each rotation reborn thread, presumed dps over x time, and combined dps for each and every part of a boss fight(across say all dps combinations possible), its just "do the guides and done" mentally

and a blm could screw up, its called forgetting to transpose when things go bad and dipping when he/she is stuck in AF and needs mp(it can happen)

I have no idea what that last post is trying to say, aside from the last paragraph. . .

And nothing that you said even contradicts my point. Yes, DPS is meant to be a group effort. If I notice that one member of the group isn't pulling his weight, it's my duty as a member of the group to help him, is it not? How am I supposed to do that if I can't tell what he's doing wrong? Or worse, what if I can tell that *someone* in the group of four needs to improve, but not which of the four? Am I supposed to record our attempts until I can figure out which player needs help? When there's no guarantee that the issue would even present itself to a recording?

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Originally Posted by Canadane

A parse or the knowledge of the exact dps each is putting out isn't needed. When you know there's a dps issue a generic glance in the direction of your damage dealers will usually be enough to show you who's slacking.

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Do you mean by checking their gear? That's even worse... Many many many times, I've seen i110+ do much worse than the guy who's i99~. There is no way to tell who's the bad seed without parsing it or kicking each person one by one.