IDEA: PVP FATE's

A lot of opposition to open-world PvP on these forums... I don't want to hear talk of "why not just let us duel instead" or other such alternative suggestions... I want discussion to focus on this One Idea:

PVP FATE's.

They pop sporadically & are time-limited so you don't have to worry about the "Duel me, Brah" harassers.

You opt-in to them by Syncing to the FATE (activates your PVP Abilities/Morale).

Different types, some scaling with participant count.

Deathmatch (respawn in a Safe-Zone).

Item Submission (one per kill, many littered around for pick-up, all lost on death, turn-in at Safe-Zone).

Objective Contest (like FL Center, so much potential here).

Zone Control (like FL Flags, # scales with participant count).

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Sure, some Jobs will be more effective but that's less of a matter here... this isn't meant to be taken as seriously as instanced or ladder PVP.

Rewards: Gil, PVP Experience, PVP Potions, & Wolf Marks.

Bronze/Silver/Gold/1st/2nd/3rd Bonus Scaling Rewards.

Upon Spawning, there'd be a reasonable waiting period before the Event starts so campers can't effectively get an early lead or kill-trade.

Would need to all be FFA to prevent abuse & promote fairness... some people would argue this isn't a necessity, but if you want Group-Based PVP you can play Premade Frontlines.

I also agree with the poster who suggested SE let us challenge our friends in the Wolves Den as a solution to dueling.

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BONUS: could be neat if some had "stage hazards" like Electric Walls or Spike Traps, so many possibilities. Fluid Aura into Electric Wall, Holmgang into held on Spike Trap, etc. Fun stuff.

As long as they pop somewhere remote, and not under my feet while I'm fishing or something. Really not in the mood to have a whole bunch of people fighting on top of me while fishing! Fishing is suppose to be soothing. But anyways, this sounds cool. I'd like to "see it tried out"

Ambitious, but there'd be little point to it if it's not organized and FATEs are far from that. There'd be nothing but spam of AOEs, no sense of cohesion, no anything. I'm more worried that people would just use PVP FATEs to farm for PVP levels and gear, leaving frontlines and wolves' den a ghost town, just like how hunts had made other content not worth doing.

IMO if you want PvP Fate, these FATE should spawn within PvP,
for example, during PvP suddenly some mob pop and FATE starts, PvPer need to fight the Fate and competitor at the same time..etc

I completely object extending existing perfect PvP system to open world! ^^;

What is with this 'outcry' for open world PvP? I see it every week, a thread pops up preaching open world PvP under some guise of duels, arenas or, now, random fates. I don't get the animosity PvPers have against Wolves' Den and Frontlines, the accepted PvP venues in XIV. I say accepted because it was the only places everyone, that is to say EVERYONE, could agree on. Open world was denounced all through the alpha, beta and into launch by all but the smallest minorities among the community because it's been done before in other games and done poorly. There's a reason for that. In order for open world PvP to work well, the game has to be built for it! XIV isn't even close to being built for even the PvP it has, much less something so 'ambitious' as open world. If people really want that PvP itch but don't want the accepted venues, find another game.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

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Games that are more successful are those that appeal to a wider audience. If FFXIV had solid open-world PvP, it could attract many more players to the game. The current PvP options in this game are limited.

There was once a thread in the PvP forums that suggested a PvP server, which IMO would be a simple solution. It would have absolutely no impact on people who don't want to be involved in open-world PvP. There was the persistent argument that it would 'split the community' (which is selfish if you ask me. PvP players are mostly in frontlines so whats the point?) as well as that square would have to split resources for this pvp server - which isn't something a player has to worry about.

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Originally Posted by Kassiekane

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Not every game that appeals to a broad audience is successful. Sometimes going too broad can cheapen the experience. Depending on the game and what the devs are aiming for, sometimes a niche audience can be just as good without needing to appeal to a group that probably wouldn't care about the game.

It's something tricky for SE to implement because a goodly number of us have been burned by games with open-world pvp griefers and it puts us off to the idea. There is always that lingering suspicion that a number of open world fans are really looking for a chance to gank.

I'd be okay with it if the pvp flag was set as off by default. The act of becoming flagged needs to be very deliberate for both players sake (no accidental flagging and no claiming "force" flagging to report another player - also, just syncing for the fate may lead to confusion, you'd want a warning of some form to make sure that the person realizes what they're getting into. I tend to go into autopilot on fates and I suspect i'm not alone.). It needs to be more than just a quick level sync or targeting a flagged player.

I like the idea of adding more variety to pvp. I'll never use it, but if it doesn't allow griefing in the pve side of things, how does it hurt me?

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Originally Posted by Kassiekane

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There are an embarrassment of games out there with open world pvp. FFXIV doesn't need it to appeal. It appeals just fine.

I believe it's not only okay, but should actually be encouraged for a game to find its own identity. FFXIV is just starting to do that, and I expect it to expand on that identity in Heavensward. Just because WoW or Rift or Aion or whatever has open world pvp doesn't mean every game has to have it.

It's a PvE game. You knew what you were signing up for.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

I believe it's not only okay, but should actually be encouraged for a game to find its own identity. FFXIV is just starting to do that, and I expect it to expand on that identity in Heavensward. Just because WoW or Rift or Aion or whatever has open world pvp doesn't mean every game has to have it.

It's a PvE game. You knew what you were signing up for.

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You say that FFXIV should seek its own identity, but PvP is a part of that identity as much as anything. Your argument can be applied to anything, "Just because WoW has crafting doesn't mean FFXIV should. It should seek its own identity." The only reason you apply this logic to PvP is that you don't personally enjoy it, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be in the game or that it isn't a part of what makes FFXIV great.

I'd agree if and ONLY if you have to turn pvp on similar to level sync to participate.
The reason people dislike open world PVP is because a LOT of people who engage in open world PVP are petty jerks who just like to watch people suffer. For every person who likes "the challenge" and "the thrill" of being in a dangerous area, there are 5 who just want to tick you off.

I don't think anyone is disputing that PvP is in the game. In fact, it's very much a part of it now in Wolves' Den and Frontlines. They are here and here to stay and we're fine with it. It's there, we're over there, and never shall the two paths meet. Open world, though, crosses paths and not in a good way. For ever civic-minded PvPer that won't abuse an open world system, there's nine more that want nothing more than to use it to 'punish' the 'filthy casuals'. This is what we want to avoid at all costs. If it means putting off that 10%, there's always Wolves' Den or Frontlines to sate them.

Append: Ninja'd...

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Originally Posted by WellFooled

You say that FFXIV should seek its own identity, but PvP is a part of that identity as much as anything.

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Arena PvP and zone PvP, but not open world PvP

open world PvP in ARR was already history before 1.23 ended and ARR alpha started. It was also already history since they announced 2.0 in 2011 with arena PvP, Frontline, but no open-world PvP and Yoshida also said that open-world PvP is not on the plan.

I'm all for and am always all for anything pvp that doesn't negatively effect the pve players. I love pvp, always have always will, but I understand many many people do not.

My response is almost the exact same in all these threads. However, if I had it my way open world pvp would be what I would prefer.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

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I believe it's not only okay, but should actually be encouraged for a game to find its own identity. FFXIV is just starting to do that, and I expect it to expand on that identity in Heavensward.
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I agree that it's important for any game, FFXIV included, to find it's own identity. 1.0 def had it's own identity, and 2.0, although a lot more fun IMO, worried me in that it seemed much too similar to other games in the market. As you said, XIV is starting to carve out it's own niche, and the expansion looks like a leap in that direction, and this is very important. FFXIV shouldn't be just like every other game out there.

That being said, I think PvP FATES are a great idea. They would be a very XIV way to introduce open world PvP. You could still have to opt in, just like level-syncing in a normal FATE, so it wouldn't have to disrupt players who aren't interested.

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Originally Posted by Kassiekane

Games that are more successful are those that appeal to a wider audience. If FFXIV had solid open-world PvP, it could attract many more players to the game.

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Though, as a Final Fantasy fan of the series and since it is mostly a PVE game (which is rare to find today on the market, thanks to CoD & Korean mmos that created a wide kind of players addicted to the styles :().

I'm not sure if I want to see "more players" like you said, mostly for a quality over quantity matter, remember the walls of insults shouted in the zones when the hunt got released? Now imagine the same but 10 times worse (aka, we already got enough mentally challenged people trashing and harassing other in this game, let's just not double icing on the cake).

Oh, and before the openworld-pvp-fanboy-egotists reply to my post with pitchforks and guns :p I'm not against true pvp in this game, the 1v1 arena in the wolves' den pier like it got proposed by Parz3val in this thread : http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ds-for-No-Gain is a really nice idea that would bring a real meaning to serious and fair pvp, you could even build a name as a lone player in the pvp community.

Also, adding free-openworld-pvp is just a poor excuse for people who love to party-zerg-train the solo or/and undergeared players, it's a sad reality (feel free to quote this last sentance to trash and skip my arguments above, I love salty tears xD).

I imagine the PVP FATE's to have a separate color circle to be easily distinguished from normal FATE's.

Also, well-segregated or remote is important.

It'd be nice if some flat arena's were implemented on the ground in some places but it isn't necessary.

The problem with this is that they'd have to re-develop the fate system. As it currently stands, people who have not been sync'd to the FATE, will be able to be attacked by people who have sync'd. (Much like boss FATEs that are level 45 or so that require sync'ing to level 49.)

I'm sure bots will also exploit it to kill random people who are outside the fates by using teleport exploits.

I just hate PVP altogether, so I'm just going to say I don't support PVP FATEs.

^hardly, it'd be just how you can't damage a FATE mob if you aren't synced to the FATE, just flagged for players... the game already knows how to switch on pvp when you enter the Wolve's Den, I can't imagine it would be too complex a thing to code.

The idea is you can only affect players who are synced.

I'm glad you were at least upfront & honest stating you hate PVP rather than those typical naysayers that try to hide it.

you want open world pvp that makes sense??? let people roll Garlean (san d'oria but with more metal:P) we are natural enemies and would create a entirely different path / story but in the exact same world. the rest works itself out :P

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Originally Posted by Toodles

^hardly, it'd be just how you can't damage a FATE mob if you aren't synced to the FATE, just flagged for players... the game already knows how to switch on pvp when you enter the Wolve's Den, I can't imagine it would be too complex a thing to code.

The idea is you can only affect players who are synced.

I'm glad you were at least upfront & honest stating you hate PVP rather than those typical naysayers that try to hide it.

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I'm pretty sure there's no "Flag" system for wolves den, it's just an instance where everyone can kill each other (And are on teams.) You get added to a team faction temporarily, and are removed from it when you exit and no flag is applied. I don't think they want to add a PVP Flag system just because they think open world pvp would be bad for the game.

As it stands, this game is not designed for Open World PVP at all, far, far, far from it.

^it's wouldn't be very difficult to implement, syncing flags FATE mobs already... wouldn't be that different to set to flag player-participants.

I have to say, I think this PvP fate idea is really good. I think it really answers a lot of the concerns with open-world pvp. Having a different colored circle to show the zone would make the very obvious, and a flagging option could be added to the character config menu for an additional barrier. They could also have a different soundbite que for entering the fate, or a different banner (much like the unique banner that notified a player joining a seasonal fate, i.e. Lightning Strikes). There are plenty of spots in each zone where regular fates don't spawn, so overlap wouldn't have to be an issue. Unspoiled gathering points/fishing spots etc... are always in fixed locations and could be avoided.

I guess my only concern would be linkshells/FC's/etc... easily being able to abuse it. I mean, we can't talk outside of our alliance in frontlines for that reason. In open world it would be very very easy to fix FATES with as few as 3-4 players, especially on a small server. PvP is already small in general. I enjoy it a lot, but when i get into frontlines, or go to wolfsden pier, i only see the same 10-12 people from my server. ever. lol. Really tho, the small pop. is beside the point (sorry). Free for all is fine, but it wouldn't necessarily fix the problem. If 4 players communicate well, they could easily ensure they each got gold (if score is tallied in any way resembling FATES) by killing other players first, making it much harder for solo players to hop in and benefit. I know that's just part of pvp. That's fine. But I can easily see this being brought up in a hang-up during development meetings if the idea of PvP fates was presented.

Rather than PvP FATEs in PvE zones I'd rather see the creation of a set of PvP focussed zones. PvP focussed zones would be very similar to PvE focussed zones, but with a story line component focussed on conflict between the factions. PvP is always toggled on when being present in these zones.

Rewards from quests should give PvP oriented gear, level appropriate for the intended level of the quest. Mining nodes, botany nodes and fishing spots should give resources which are used in crafting of items related to PvP; such as PvP gear, PvP food buffs, etc.

FATEs within these zones could spawn as well, however should be worked out as sequenced FATEs. Where there may either be a direct source of conflict. Or PvP conflict may even be completely preventable. Fortification FATEs could help prevent the countering team from engaging full on combat. Depending on which side would win a FATE first, the following FATE could be decided.

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Originally Posted by Fornix

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Iris Online pretty much tried this, Bots would camp the entrances to each part of the area, no one would get through.

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Originally Posted by coldreactive

Iris Online pretty much tried this, Bots would camp the entrances to each part of the area, no one would get through.

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Never heard of the game. Appears to be your generic korean MMO from what a quick google search gave me. Game hindering bots such as you describe tend to be quite common in many of such games. So I really wouldn't use such an experience as reference for how things may play out in FFXIV.

I think if there should be world PVP, it should be relegated to its own set of zones. Think something like Cyrodiil from ESO, only without the infinite loading screens and shield bash dps.
Yoshida is already taking a similar philosophy to DAOC with regards to PVP. Keeping a separation of PVP and PVE falls in line with that philosophy.

But I see why people would like World PVP. Some way to get to a PVP scenario that doesn't involve queueing for an instance would be appealing.

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Originally Posted by Verlyn

I think if there should be world PVP, it should be relegated to its own set of zones. Think something like Cyrodiil from ESO, only without the infinite loading screens and shield bash dps.
Yoshida is already taking a similar philosophy to DAOC with regards to PVP. Keeping a separation of PVP and PVE falls in line with that philosophy.

But I see why people would like World PVP. Some way to get to a PVP scenario that doesn't involve queueing for an instance would be appealing.

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This is me. I know people don't like OW PvP and I get that, but instanced PvP for me just really kills it for me, I like my PvE and PvP seamlessly together, that's why I like World PvP so much.

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Originally Posted by Toodles

^it's wouldn't be very difficult to implement, syncing flags FATE mobs already... wouldn't be that different to set to flag player-participants.

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Gotta also remember how FATEs work by the general system of it. You can join a FATE starting at any point within it. You can exit a FATE anytime simply by running out of it. Likewise, with syncing, you can removal yourself from the FATE at the click of a button. How are these things going to blend into open world PvP syncing? Removing the ability to leave the FATE by desyncing might work, but then what about the general ability we have to simply move outside of its bounds? The system itself wouldn't exactly be a FATE one, but rather a different system altogether. For example, they would have to probably remove the ability to desync once you join and either close off the area within the FATE (invisible walls) or do something to penalize someone... which would also be an unfair problem with pushback abilities. It's a lot more difficult than simply flipping a switch for this to happen, due to the way it'd have to play out.

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Originally Posted by Fornix

Rewards from quests should give PvP oriented gear, level appropriate for the intended level of the quest. Mining nodes, botany nodes and fishing spots should give resources which are used in crafting of items related to PvP; such as PvP gear, PvP food buffs, etc.

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I'd rather there not be gather node in any of these zones. As it will make gatherers sitting ducks for the kind of jerks that make open world PvP unfavorable in the first place.

That said I agree with the rest of your ideas.

Too many players don't want PVP Zones or typical open-world duel requests.

Therefore, PVP FATE's are the perfect compromise.

Please SE?

how does making PvP random even work out?

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

how does making PvP random even work out?

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It wouldn't be totally random.

Just like normal FATE's, they'd be in set places with set objectives.

I imagine only the spawn timers to be mildly random (like Hunts with soft & hard-timers, appearing in a time-interval), just to avoid spawn-camping abuse cases.