In 2.3 I was a fairly firm believer that warriors were the prime tanks as their kit was just perfect for basically everything. They AoE'd better, solo tanked better, had more consistent damage reduction for spike periods. But the buff to CoS and Flash seems to have done quite a lot for plds in terms of AoE threat. Will this mean a shift to paladins as the prime 'whelp tanks' while warriors are flexing on the big bad? Since pld aoe is a 360 it also means less positioning requirements and easier aoe for line based stuff like drg and all that. I dunno, thoughts? I main war myself, but have pld as well, so wondering about other tank player's opinions.
Have the tanks swapped roles?
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11-02-2014, 06:59 AMTheFanciestBardHave the tanks swapped roles?
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11-02-2014, 07:55 AMSaigwa
. . . . . wut?
If by "prime tank" you are referring to "main tank" I'd have to say it is all due to preference, though in the most preferred situation, Paladin would be the main tank with Warrior as off tank. Reason being, Paladin are preemptive and Warriors are reflexive. Main tank and off tank are not based off of AOE power, but the ability to tank bosses better. Of course, it all comes down to player skill and preference, but in the ideal party makeup, you would find the Paladin on the boss with Warrior on adds due to the nature of the classes. -
11-02-2014, 08:10 AMTheFanciestBardPrime as in best. Before 2.3 plds really only had chain stun up on warriors imo. A good off tank has not only good aoe but also good snap aggro and reliable crowd control. Paladin has all that. Wars with no combos ready have less snap aggro than lob>CoS>Flash. Wars have better single target threat as well as more reliable mitigation for spike damage in long fights. Not to mention flash doesn't break sleep. Overpower does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saigwa
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11-02-2014, 09:21 AMBablioteca
I think in my limited opinion Paladins have fully shifted into better offtanks, though I think in general Warriors have been the better maintanks for awhile. Both do their jobs well but in those positions they have the most relative damage in comparison to one another.
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11-02-2014, 09:20 PMAsieridWhile you're in range to CoS/Flash for snap aggro, I have done two overpowers with Steel Cyclone, which would be better at "snap" seeing as CoS is a dot and flash has that derpy split second animation. It really is no different than it was before. PLD just got less suicidal tanking lowbie dungeons now. The tanks really depend on the player. I take a decent PLD over a bad WAR regardless how they stand just because the passives are easier to use and much better over a period of time in a fight. However, I think a well played WAR does better than a PLD (Not counting using Hallowed Ground for mechanics, because lolHolmgangsucks).Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFanciestBard
Wat's sleep? We still do that? -
11-02-2014, 10:01 PMJohnno25
All the buff to flash and CoS did was try to balance out the already absurd multi-target threat control that WAR was way better at. (and still is)
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11-03-2014, 01:13 AMDotsusama
The great thing about the buff to Flash is that while I have always had it on my hotbar for certain situations (directional requirements, being Pacified, low level dungeons, running out of TP, etc), now it's even better in those situations because of the buff. Spamming Overpower on T4 runs is a guaranteed way to be dry on TP halfway through the fourth wave, and weaving Flash in until I'm out of MP maintains sufficient aggro to AoE the bigger pulls.
That aside, I've never seen it as one class versus the other, and I've yet to experience any duties or raids where someone preferred having one tank to another on the big boss. It usually just comes down to playing style, gear, and skill. -
11-03-2014, 06:34 AMTheFanciestBardYou realize Flash into CoS is only 1 gcd where 2 overpowers and steel cyclone is 3 right? That's a long time for snap aggro. You're really going to tell your blm to wait for about 6 seconds before he can start casting flare? Wars obviously win the 'I can do the most enmity over the course of a minute' fight, since plds can't compete with berserk/unchained for enmity, but in the case of easily picking up a mob plds have the initial advantage because of their off GCD abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asierid
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11-03-2014, 08:24 AMAsieridOh. Let me make it more realistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFanciestBard
Steel Cyclone into an Overpower.
The difference is really negligible at this point. Overpower is only better because it does damage whereas flash does not. Besides, PLD still makes the better OT just because of Sword Oath damage. -
11-03-2014, 08:53 AMaerolol
tl;dr: Warriors cause damage while getting AoE aggro.
Warrior DPS from AoE aggro does make a difference in dungeon farm parties (remember Brayflox HM for myth grind to buy animus books anyone? Having a Warrior in the party would make the run last 1 less minute... May not seen much but since it took only around 5-6 minutes to grab the myth, after 5-6 runs you'd have a "free" one in the same amount of time if you had a Warrior in a party as opposed to a PLD).
Or even in recent content like adds during Shiva Ex.
It's not even that hard of a DPS check, but I have seen a party failing the add phase, with all DPS alive and WHM (me) spamming Holy non-stop while other healer managed to keep both PLD alive...
The overpower spam would have made a difference and the party would not have wiped at that time.
Also, if you kill adds fast on shiva ex, tanks, healers and DPS can switch back to Shiva, DoT her and she will still take dmg while she is doing the Diamond Dust thing.
Be it Steel Cyclone x2 or Unchained + Overpower spam, the damage is not low.
It's comparable to AoE of other classes like MNK or DRG.
Add Berserk and Bloodbath to that, you are causing a lot of damage (350dps+) and healing yourself.
You can add Vengeance for increase defense and do even more damage on mobs who will get counter-damaged when they hit you.
One Overpower or Steel Cyclone under berserk is MORE THAN ENOUGH to get aggro in such a way that even BLM Flare can't get it from you.
So it's only 1 GCD.
PLD flash blinds enemies so there's a chance they will miss, but they may not miss at all and land all their attacks. Flash does no damage.
Yes, flash does not wake sleeping mobs, but........ Who needs sleep anyway?
I think it's very balanced the way it is.
PLDs were having a hard time keeping aggro from lv115 BLM spamming dual or triple flares on dungeons.
Warrior is still better for AoE hate and faster runs. -
11-04-2014, 11:40 AMInosaska
It won't really matter once DRK gets released because about every person is going to be on it because it is new and shiny and will possibly be a little stronger or a lot stronger depending on how it plays out. I just feel sorry for PLD for being in such a weird spot.
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11-06-2014, 06:17 PMBranniganWell, Overpower is also better because Warrior can buff it with Berserk and Maim. Paladin can't do shit for Flash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asierid
Regarding the OP, I think that warriors generally have an edge right now (higher damage while tanking, monster attack timers are better for warrior cooldowns), but it's not enough that paladins are useless or auto assigned to OT or anything. Paladins still have hallowed, and a lot of damage comes from autoattacks so shields are great. -
11-06-2014, 11:01 PMdday3sixI was under the impression Fight or Flight increased Flash. Is that not correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brannigan
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11-06-2014, 11:14 PMAlphras
No it doesn't. Funny enough, Maim does.
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11-09-2014, 09:05 PMKossuranta
As PLD there is nothing I can do when WAR decides to "snap" aggro from multiple mobs. CoS doesn't do much so it's basically still just flash spam, while it's 360 it has pretty short range which means if we lose one it's time to move.
On single target there is nothing for long duration that WAR can do againts PLD rotating cooldowns. WAR might stay alive for longer while without healing, but we can go pretty long durations with only little healing making us usually better tanks for long high damage fights also cooldowns + stone skin spam can make us take 0 damage for short period. -
11-10-2014, 02:51 AMxvshanevx
From my personal experience, and dealing with WARs of similar ilvl (though may not be very good WARs, because they were randoms), this is what I have seen:
Multi-target "snap" agro - Ya, WARs win hands down. PLDs mainly have Flash and SoC... whoopdy-fucking-doo.
Single-target "snap" agro - My vote is PLDs. The combo I use is FoF > SoC > Fracture > SW > Main combo. This is in Sword Oath, not Shield Oath, and I will steal agro for sometime (usually until the WAR does a few of their combos, or until I stop attacking).
As for being the "MT" role in the group, I think it comes down to the player. Simply put, does the player want MT and do they want to MT on WAR or PLD? If they are better on WAR, then they should MT as WAR, and vice-versa.
TL;DR - If you are a MT for any raid group, then play what you are comfortable with. That will have the biggest impact.