About roles and balance.

Roles:
When you check the forums or ask in-game about the jobs most desired by the players, there are always different responses but some a very recurrent; red mage, blue mage, dancer, dark knight, even green mage has some threads.
What does this mean? Those jobs a hybrids and some support (buff/debuff) based, in others words, the so called holly trinity is hindering this game and denying what the players (customers) want.
Perhaps it's time to implement the hybrid role Yoshi have mentioned previously.

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Once we add the hybrid role (which serves multiple roles), you'll be able to have two players from each role, for a total of 8 people

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Taking this sentence into account we can assume that the game was already balanced with the hybrid role in mind, and the reason it's not implemented by now it's because, as Yoshida said in a live letter or letter from the producer, they will not implement it anytime soon to keep the “matching” system simple for the for the new players.


Balance:
There are several reasons to have a game balanced, to avoid power creep, to avoid player and class exclusions, to provide a good degree of difficulty...
Again, the so called balance, just like the “un-holy trinity” is hindering the game, but don't take this wrong, i do think balance is needed, but not the way it is being handled.
The most heavy reason for some players to to reject buff/debuff classes is the class exclusion, if you design a battle around a buffer/debuffer class it will be mandatory, and will make recruitment times longer, and take a spot some other class could have taken.
That's terrifying... but well it's already happen and will always happen, we can't deny it, as long as there are hardcore raiders they will always maximize the efficiency of their ptys, this is unavoidable, and ignorable at the same time if we take into account 2 things, they hardcore raider player-base is a small minority in this game, and, the game is designed to have various classes leveled in a single character.
So, as an idea to make this work, 2 changes are needed, separate token/loot lockouts/caps, per classes, and a change in the loot system, some times we may be forced to use a class we don't want to, to clear content, this is already happening, and because of this i think the “need” capability should be selected before starting the instance and not linked to the current equipped class.

Lets talk about another big fear, player exclusion, well this is already happening, though we were promised by yoshida in the 1.xx era, that ffxivARR would be a game where hardcore, casual, experienced and new games would be able to play together. Well this is the bigger lie, because in favor of balance, this game battles have been designed with very specific player limits (party size) and around a trial and error system, the enemy of the the new players and best ally of the so hard to obtain statics, and this have been said by casuals and hardcore alike; “the difficulty of coil resides in your capability to make/find a static”.

Well, for me is clear, trial and error systems has nothing to do with player skill, it's just a false difficulty that promotes player exclusion.

If i have to give an idea to solve this, i would say, less 1shot mechanics, more reactive and less predictable battles, without making it fully randomized. give us chances to recover from an almost certain wipe, it's an important player skill after all, and please, give us more than one way to win a battle, something else than an unexpected way, like coil2 enrage.

Balance is always good but it should never be preferred over functionality and fun, because it leads ro repetition and boredom, a scripted trial and error battle can seem balanced and fair, but it's not and it's of course far from being fun.

TLDR: there's no such thing, a forum is a place to read and write, if you're not capable of it, this is not your place.

In 1.0 originally you had more options for a hybrid class such as a bastardised Red Mage, but then the 1.2x? (forgot which ones) did an overhaul of the battle system along side the introduction of job abilites/gear.

In some ways, the simplicity of the current system allows for fast match-making and simple party managment.


Where-as an XI system allows people to pick, choose and exclude.
For example some jobs in XI in most end-game content now get excluded right off the bat, you'll virtually never see a Blue Mage.

If you take the roles in the context of the game you'll find a common reason for why we haven't received those jobs: No new jobs have been added since release.

Rogue/Ninja is the first, and we absolutely know that more are coming. Red Mage, Dancer, Dark Knight, even Green Mage could be added in the expansion, but we just don't know yet (Blue Mage is already confirmed not to be happening, though, because of it's OP nature).

So how about waiting until we find out what new jobs are actually coming before passing judgement on why certain ones aren't coming.

OP I cannot recommend this thread to you enough:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...apanese-Player

You seem to share views in detail.

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Originally Posted by Renik

If i have to give an idea to solve this, i would say, less 1shot mechanics, more reactive and less predictable battles, without making it RNG.

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First of all, if you want less predictable battles isn't this going to involve RNG in some way, shape or form? RNG is what produces the less predictability in MMOs. If you produce a script where "X" is achieved and "Y" occurs but can happen anytime in the encounter, that isn't very less predictable because you already know what causes "X" to be achieved therefore producing "Y".

How do you intend to produce less predictability without any form RNG behind a mechanic?

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Originally Posted by Xystic

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It is impossible. even real life involves RNG, and of course you can't make a game without any RNG and call it hard, the idea is simple, scripted phases on RNG, RNG on minor attacks and debuffs, and a minor AI, reactive as you say X triggers Y. I'm not talking about an uncontrolled RNG, like titan doing mountain buster 3 times in a row, i'm talking about giving variables to the scripts to make them less predictable and more reactive without leading to "impossible to beat combinations." Of course this would mean less 1shot mechanics, unless they are triggered by percentages or time.

And please, i know a big part of the forums hate RNG and will go against anyone supporting it, so don't just throw it, because RNG is not as simple as a dice, it has to be placed and controled.

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Originally Posted by Grey_Cain

If you take the roles in the context of the game you'll find a common reason for why we haven't received those jobs: No new jobs have been added since release.

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This is the truth.

The Holy Trinity setup isn't what's preventing new jobs from being released. Even Blue Mage can be adjusted to fit the current system, it would just need more work to implement than a more straightforward job like Ninja.

The biggest challenge for the developers is for the new jobs to actually feel unique, and not just be job X with abilities with different names and visual effects.

Just look at Paladin and Warrior at release. The mechanics of both jobs were pretty different (Paladin prevented damage, Warrior used self-healing to recover from damage taken). But when the Warrior rework happened many complained that the Warrior became too similar to Paladin because it now focused more on preventing damage too.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

The biggest challenge for the developers is for the new jobs to actually feel unique, and not just be job X with abilities with different names and visual effects.

Just look at Paladin and Warrior at release. The mechanics of both jobs were pretty different (Paladin prevented damage, Warrior used self-healing to recover from damage taken). But when the Warrior rework happened many complained that the Warrior became too similar to Paladin because it now focused more on preventing damage too.

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On the other end of the spectrum, warrior on release was just absolutely bad at main tanking certain fights because they lacked damage prevention (and self-healing did nothing in this situation). Right now I feel warriors play differently enough from paladins that healing them is two different beasts, but both are still capable of being the MT or OT for fights.

Trying to introduce a fourth role (support) would also require a complete overhaul on the dungeons and queuing system, and it'd probably place more of a burden on dps queues. Despite this, people still try to label bard as the "support" so they can probably try to incorperate it into dps... which brings into another problem of whether or not they're going to end up being required, optional or suboptimal to bring to a raid.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

The biggest challenge for the developers is for the new jobs to actually feel unique, and not just be job X with abilities with different names and visual effects.

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This is why we need the hybrid role to be implemented, it has been studied and the game is already balanced around it, but Yoshida decided to cancel/delay it in favor of the new players and hte match system, and i can understand the part of the match system, the game launched without the hybrid role, and releasing it now could cause some queue issues, but the sooner the better, this game is already very limited, making this change the sooner will be the best in the long run.

On a more personal point, i don't want to play blue mage which is purely DPS, a nuker red mage or a healer green mage, if they are going to half implement those jobs they better just don't implement them.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Just look at Paladin and Warrior at release. The mechanics of both jobs were pretty different (Paladin prevented damage, Warrior used self-healing to recover from damage taken). But when the Warrior rework happened many complained that the Warrior became too similar to Paladin because it now focused more on preventing damage too.

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Yah that's because healers are lazy and no matter how much ability to regain their own HP WAR had..people would see their HP plummet and be pouring out cures and immediately say PLD is better because we have to heal less...I used to get overhealed bad as WAR before the changes to the point I was wasting my CDs on a full HP bar because healers are so reactive.

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Originally Posted by Renik

On a more personal point, i don't want to play blue mage which is purely DPS, a nuker red mage or a healer green mage, if they are going to half implement those jobs they better just don't implement them.

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XI was the only game really where the Blue Mage served multiple roles...it's always been almost entirely a damage class. Sure they had White Wind and Mighty Guard but 90% of their spells in previous games were attacks. Make them a pure DPS in XIV and give them the ability to pick between tank and healer LBs and you have your typical BLU from games other than XI

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Originally Posted by Renik

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You just described Ramuh EX just about perfectly. You can even recover from major deaths as long as it isn't during add phase. You have to heavily micromanage the Trial to be able to have certain mechanics fall where they're most useful (ie holding DPS right before adds to ensure you don't swap on a Chaotic). Sadly Ramuh EX is not heavily ran despite the awesome rings and decent weps for your alt classes so the Devs are going to get the impression that what people have been clamoring for on the forums is NOT working.

The problem with hybrid jobs is that they're hell to balance.

Should these jobs be good at more than one role? If you do this they'll become overpowered because why bring along a specialist job when the hybrid can perform just as well and fulfill more than one role if needed? Example: Red Mages during ToAU/WotG.

Should these jobs not be able to excel at any role? If you do this they'll be ignored because they can't perform as good as a specialist job. Example: Puppetmaster during ToAU/WotG.

The best you can hope for is a hybrid job that performs well at one specific role but is also passable at other roles, like the healers and tanks that are currently in FFXIV. SMN is also kind of like this with their Titan tanking.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Despite this, people still try to label bard as the "support" so they can probably try to incorperate it into dps... which brings into another problem of whether or not they're going to end up being required, optional or suboptimal to bring to a raid.

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They may as well have made a support job because bards are pretty much required for end game raids. (Especially during progression.)

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Originally Posted by Lithera

XI was the only game really where the Blue Mage served multiple roles...it's always been almost entirely a damage class. Sure they had White Wind and Mighty Guard but 90% of their spells in previous games were attacks. Make them a pure DPS in XIV and give them the ability to pick between tank and healer LBs and you have your typical BLU from games other than XI

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Blue mage has been a lot of things in the saga, and the more complex the game the more diverse it becomes, look at Quina from FFIX as an example, we are not just talking about what it has been in other games, we are talking about its potential, we could make a dark knight who instead of dark magic and absorbs, uses only HP consuming skills, because it was like that in ffiv and tactics, but it would be a waste.

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Originally Posted by Renik

look at Quina from FFIX as an example

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If Quina had a role in FFIX, it was clearly DPS.

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Originally Posted by Renik

Blue mage has been a lot of things in the saga, and the more complex the game the more diverse it becomes, look at Quina from FFIX as an example, we are not just talking about what it has been in other games, we are talking about its potential, we could make a dark knight who instead of dark magic and absorbs, uses only HP consuming skills, because it was like that in ffiv and tactics, but it would be a waste.

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Of course, and that's part of my point in a way. In the name of diversity we also can't just look at XI BLU. especially considering BLU in XI is so much hybrid that it becomes next to useless in order to prevent it from becoming OP. The amount of work needed to make a BLU in XI useful in the endgame content is insane when you consider you can grind a MNK to 99, get some fairly easy to get gear and be the GOTO DPS for endgame..

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Originally Posted by Mardel

They may as well have made a support job because bards are pretty much required for end game raids. (Especially during progression.)

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Don't see this, at least not on farmfruit. I've gotten shafted out of T6 because they wanted BLM, MNK, SMN and DRG.

When it comes to new classes, I'd rather them avoid the whole "Jack of all trades, master of none". You don't want a role that's capable of doing all, but not really accel at any one (to the point that what they bring to the table isn't respectable, despite the perks they bring). Same in the case of having a SMN for Titan-egi in some fights simply because it makes it so much easier. It creates class exclusion and people will get left out. Making a fourth role would only compound onto this and make it even worse on dps for DF queues.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

The amount of work needed to make a BLU in XI useful in the endgame content is insane when you consider you can grind a MNK to 99, get some fairly easy to get gear and be the GOTO DPS for endgame..

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And still i took all that work because i loved the job, and i was always welcome in endgame.

This is more for those who see it hard to be implemented because of the class exclusion,you can say it's useless for your static or for certain battles, you can say it is hard to lvl and or gear, but those who like it will play it, not everyone in the game is a hardcore raider, as i said Hardcore raiders are a minority, they can exclude whatever they want, but the casual crowd will play their way, you can't always chose what to use when you're not a hardcore raider or part of a big FC, this is what most people in the forums fail to understand.

I would like to add something more, as a player who likes and plays hybrid roles, an hybrid is a class made to perform well in a variety of situations, like healing for a short period while the whm raises the fallen scholar, or taking an add which is out of control, of course this can make a battle easyer, but it will also be slower, because a good mnk or a drg could apport higher DPS to make the battle shorter, for me this is not a "not needed" or "must have" just different strategies, this is what the real balance should do, of course, when a battle is fully scripted this is not possible, but SE is slowly changing the system, and hybrid roles could have a place soon, and don't forget a lot of ppl is asking for this, or it would never made it to a LL.

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Originally Posted by Renik

If i have to give an idea to solve this, i would say, less 1shot mechanics, more reactive and less predictable battles, without making it RNG.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

How do you intend to produce less predictability without any form RNG behind a mechanic?

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Originally Posted by Renik

It is impossible. even real life involves RNG

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Okay, so we both agree that RNG is going to be involved if you want less predictable battles.

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Originally Posted by Renik

I would like to add something more, as a player who likes and plays hybrid roles, an hybrid is a class made to perform well in a variety of situations, like healing for a short period while the whm raises the fallen scholar, or taking an add which is out of control, of course this can make a battle easyer, but it will also be slower, because a good mnk or a drg could apport higher DPS to make the battle shorter, for me this is not a "not needed" or "must have" just different strategies, this is what the real balance should do, of course, when a battle is fully scripted this is not possible, but SE is slowly changing the system, and hybrid roles could have a place soon, and don't forget a lot of ppl is asking for this, or it would never made it to a LL.

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Your logic here has a couple of flaws:

- Have you seen some of the stuff that makes it to the LL?
- I see a lot of people asking for Blue Mages, I don't see a lot of people asking for Hybrid roles.

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Originally Posted by Xystic

Okay, so we both agree that RNG is going to be involved if you want less predictable battles.

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Originally Posted by Renik

without making it fully randomized

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Fixed, in the case you can't understand my response to your previous post, gonna put it simple, RNG is not the devil this forum makes it look like, it's a development tool, and it's unavoidable, every time you hit a button in the game a RNG script is being executed, don't mix people's hate for atmas and mirrors with battle design, it's not the same.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Your logic here has a couple of flaws:

- Have you seen some of the stuff that makes it to the LL?
- I see a lot of people asking for Blue Mages, I don't see a lot of people asking for Hybrid roles.

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1. yes, but that was a serious question, not a time waste one.
2. ppl can see different things, i see people not wanting a DPS only blue mage or red mage, the solution is an hybrid class already mentioned, but not coming soon for silly reasons.

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Originally Posted by Renik

2. ppl can see different things, i see people not wanting a DPS only blue mage or red mage, the solution is an hybrid class already mentioned, but not coming soon for silly reasons.

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I wouldn't call being worried about balance a silly reason. Some of us don't like the options of having either an overpowered job or a lackluster one.

Funny thing is, they could already have a hybrid if they hadn't utterly crushed the whole idea of cross-class skills underfoot. Seriously, I get to choose from 3 jobs, and one of those is a DoL? Why would my Paladin ever need Lay of the Land? And only a handful of skills at that.

There is scope for much expansion already if they just opened it up a little more, but I sincerely doubt we'll be seeing it any time soon.