Resource Management

There is one thing I feel is lacking in this game that could be introduced to create more challenge that aren't all about twitch mechanics and pattern memorisation.

This would be Resource Management

With a few exceptions this doesn't really exist in X|V: ARR.

• Once you have gotten yourself some enmity established on a target as a tank, you're not going to lose it to any equivalent ilevel DPS. Enmity also does not decay.
  
• On the vast majority of fights, you're not going to run out of MP as a WHM, much less a SCH.
  
• On the vast majority of fights, you're not burning a single target long enough to run out of TP on any of the DPS.
  
• BLM literally cannot run out of MP for more than a few seconds.
  

To me, resource management has always been a key part of MMOs. It was a delicate balance that had to be monitored for every fight.

• Tanks should be monitoring their MP/TP usage so as not to waste enmity by hitting an enmity cap only to lose it later on in the fight to an over-eager DPS and not having the resources to pull it back.
  
• Healers have to balance their healing per second to make sure they neither overheal or generate more enmity than the tank.
  
• DPS need to learn when to burn their TP and/or MP. Unleash it too early and you will pull hate from the tank leading to both the tank and the healer expending extra resource grabbing it back. Unleash it too late and the healer's MP will be stretched having to keep a tank alive longer than they should need to.

What this means is fights where the goal isn't just 'how much DPS my rotation is', 'how well I can dodge voidzones' and 'how well I have this pattern memorised'. It becomes also 'How intelligently can I choose when to unleash my epic rotation?' and 'How well can I judge the capabilities of the others in my party?'


Is this just nostalgia glasses? Do you all prefer the current system of seemingly endless resource? Am I mischaracterising the current situation - do you feel resources are significantly limited at the moment?

Compairing roles really doesnt work in this game, and tanks have their own problems to deal with (could you imagine tankswaping while having to monitor your resources and having dps spike emnity?) On the side of dps they would have to completely rehaul or remove the TP system to make resource management a viable thing for melee dps (autoattacking as you wait for your Tp is very unfun) Now for new classes id say adding an extra layer of resources would be an interesting idea like say a focus bar for samurai or runes for dark knight and so on.

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Originally Posted by Nyxilin

Compairing roles really doesnt work in this game, and tanks have their own problems to deal with (could you imagine tankswapping while having to monitor your resources and having dps spike emnity?)

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That's actually exactly what I was thinking of. A layer of challenge that doesn't revolve around pattern memorisation or twitch reflexes, but involves a party acting as a party: each member considering the actions of the others.

It's very challenging, but it's a challenge that doesn't rely on your ping.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I don't think SE will make resource management a serious obstacle. This thread is more for the discussion of it as a concept in MMOs in general and how XIV is an example of a game without it.

Resources management is a great utility to have but having it effect the overall characters ability to perform is just not fun.

Good Resource Management: Aetherflow for Scholars (Giving them the ability to exceed their normal abilities to a limited extent)
Bad Resource Management: TP limits, forcing players to have to 'wait' before doing something.

I'm all for giving players options to outperform their normal capacity with the use of limited resources that can recharge. Just please don't create a system that inhibits a player entirely if they don't push buttons in the right order.

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Originally Posted by Codek

Resources management is a great utility to have but having it effect the overall characters ability to perform is just not fun.

Good Resource Management: Aetherflow for Scholars (Giving them the ability to exceed their normal abilities to a limited extent)
Bad Resource Management: TP limits, forcing players to have to 'wait' before doing something.

I'm all for giving players options to outperform their normal capacity with the use of limited resources that can recharge. Just please don't create a system that inhibits a player entirely if they don't push buttons in the right order.

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Isn't that a perfect description of a rotation? Your DPS is inhibited if you aren't following the right rotation?

With enmity being something that everyone needs to manage, you aren't limited by your available TP/MP so much as you are the adverse effect on your party by unleashing at the wrong time. It means paying attention to a fight beyond knowing what move is next. If the boss just unleashed a big hit on the tank, the tanks enmity will have decayed significantly, perhaps use a low-enmity debuff of some kind?

It becomes not so much a case of knowing your best rotation. It becomes knowing when to use that rotation, and when not to.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I don't think SE will make resource management a serious obstacle. This thread is more for the discussion of it as a concept in MMOs in general and how XIV is an example of a game without it.

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Well, then, in that case: yes, I kind of miss it. I find it enjoyable when it's balanced well (meaning you have to pay attention to it, but you can make one or two recoveries if someone screws up or RNG is being a d-bag). It makes me feel a lot more connected to my party, and to the class I'm playing, and to the situation at hand.

It would be absolutely terrible in FFXIV as it is, though. There are too many twitchy, instant points of failure, and things are too scripted, to throw significant resource management on top of that and make it enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Bixby

Well, then, in that case: yes, I kind of miss it. I find it enjoyable when it's balanced well (meaning you have to pay attention to it, but you can make one or two recoveries if someone screws up or RNG is being a d-bag). It makes me feel a lot more connected to my party, and to the class I'm playing, and to the situation at hand.

It would be absolutely terrible in FFXIV as it is, though. There are too many twitchy, instant points of failure, and things are too scripted, to throw significant resource management on top of that and make it enjoyable.

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Agreed. I just feel without it, the game is a little... arcadey. Dodge this, dodge that, keep up DPS etc. It feels like playing Battletoads again.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Isn't that a perfect description of a rotation? Your DPS is inhibited if you aren't following the right rotation?

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The thing is that a dps rotation will exist to maximize damage with or without a resource management system. If the system exists, then the rotation will simply take that into account and alter the rotation.

The added benefit is simply a change in the rotation (which is basically nothing) and the added option to burst with the sacrafice of not being able to do anything down the road. The downside is that doing the rotation wrong not only yields a lower output but also creates a situation where the player is told they can't do anything (which is just stupid).

The combat system doesn't need an overall inhibitor on a rotation. Having designated abilities revolving around the resource can accomplish the same strategic value just the same and also make those abilities feel almost godlike when they can be utilized.

T8 and T9 are resource management fights for healers. It took me a while to get used to the tempo, and made me learn how to slave drive the shit out of the poor fairy.

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Originally Posted by Codek

The thing is that a dps rotation will exist to maximize damage with or without a resource management system. If the system exists, then the rotation will simply take that into account and alter the rotation.

The added benefit is simple a change in the rotation (which is basically nothing) and the added option to burst with the sacrafice of not being able to do anything down the road. The downside is that doing the rotation wrong not only yields a lower output but also creates a situation where the player is told they can't do anything (which is just stupid).

The combat system doesn't need an overall inhibitor on a rotation. Having designated abilities revolving around the resource can accomplish the same strategic value just the same and also make those abilities feel almost godlike when they can be utilized.

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But if someone follows an optimal rotation and steals hate from the tank he would be lowering the party as a whole's DPS by causing healers and tanks to waste valuable resources on returning hate, additionally running the risk of an AOE from the turned mob hitting other party members.

In this way, increasing your DPS has decreased the party's DPS.

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Originally Posted by Lazearus

T8 and T9 are resource management fights for healers. It took me a while to get used to the tempo, and made me learn how to slave drive the shit out of the poor fairy.

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I will admit to having no experience of second coil. My static broke up after clearing T5 and before T6+ were released.

I think those days of resource management are long gone. Except in coil where some dps run out of tp and healers can run out of mp too, especially when other members do silly things. But this is a whole different burn style of play where there is not much time to focus on resource management. Very simplified game with not many abilities to choose from.

For example, in Xi, pld had lots of abilities to maintain hate and get it back if it were lost. But you also had more time for everything. In this game, everything dies so fast. And with having to focus on mechanics, there is no time to focus on resource management.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

I think those days of resource management are long gone. Except in coil where some dps run out of tp and healers can run out of mp too, especially when other members do silly things. But this is a whole different burn style of play where there is not much time to focus on resource management. Very simplified game with not many abilities to choose from.

For example, in Xi, pld had lots of abilities to maintain hate and get it back if it were lost. But you also had more time for everything. In this game, everything dies so fast. And with having to focus on mechanics, there is no time to focus on resource management.

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But interestingly, no ability with the functionality of current 'Provoke'. You had to work to drag yourself back on top of the hate list.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Agreed. I just feel without it, the game is a little... arcadey. Dodge this, dodge that, keep up DPS etc. It feels like playing Battletoads again.

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Can't really argue too much with that. I wish I were making more actual choices in combat instead of just being a living series of simplistic if/then statements.

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Originally Posted by Codek

The thing is that a dps rotation will exist to maximize damage with or without a resource management system. If the system exists, then the rotation will simply take that into account and alter the rotation.

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And there's this, too. Making resource management interesting, to me, is 100% tied to the randomness and pace of combat. It goes back to the decisions you're making. If the combat doesn't require you to alter or abandon your rotation to a significant degree, resource management as a mechanic is just sort of a boring/frustrating pass/fail.

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Originally Posted by Bixby

Can't really argue too much with that. I wish I were making more actual choices in combat instead of just being a living series of simplistic if/then statements.

And there's this, too. Making resource management interesting, to me, is 100% tied to the randomness and pace of combat. It goes back to the decisions you're making. If the combat doesn't require you to alter or abandon your rotation to a significant degree, resource management as a mechanic is just sort of a boring/frustrating pass/fail.

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I think I agree with pretty much everything you've said, and I couldn't have phrased the bolded part any better.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

But if someone follows an optimal rotation and steals hate from the tank he would be lowering the party as a whole's DPS by causing healers and tanks to waste valuable resources on returning hate, additionally running the risk of an AOE from the turned mob hitting other party members.

In this way, increasing your DPS has decreased the party's DPS.



I will admit to having no experience of second coil. My static broke up after clearing T5 and before T6+ were released.

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Threat management will be in regardless, but it can be spun around in a way where the player doesn't need to hold back their dps but instead manage another resource to control that threat.

Example:
Monk is given 5 resources every minute called "Numb" - reduced threat from the next ability to 0.

Generally, they would want to utilize this with their heavy hit in a rotation. It would also be more beneficial to use it for all abilities in a string of attacks that line up with increased damage cooldowns going off.

Either way, when to use those resources drastically depends on the situation at play making it a much more dynamic system. It's far more engaging then simply determining your threat output over time and holding back to manage it.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

But interestingly, no ability with the functionality of current 'Provoke'. You had to work to drag yourself back on top of the hate list.

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It wasn't that hard, cure 2 and cover the person that stole hate. And yeah, I think that is what OP was talking about, no? He wants to have to work for that.

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Originally Posted by Codek

Threat management will be in regardless, but ic can be spun around in a way where the player doesn't need to hold back their dps but instead manage another resource to control that threat.

Example:
Monk is given 5 resources every minute called "Numb" - reduced threat from the next ability to 0.

Generally, they would want to utilize this with their heavy hit in a rotation. It would also be more beneficial to use it for all abilities in a string of attacks that line up with increased damage cooldowns going off.

Either way, when to use those resources drastically depends on the situation at play making it a much more dynamic system. It's far more engaging then simply determining your threat output over time and holding back to manage it.

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But Numb would still slot into a rotation; there would be an optimal time to use it and sub-optimal times that would remain the same essentially regardless of the fight you are engaged in.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

It wasn't that hard, cure 2 and cover the person that stole hate. And yeah, I think that is what OP was talking about, no? He wants to have to work for that.

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Indeed he was. In fact, because enmity is so easy to maintain in this game, Cover is almost never used (I've used it a couple of times in Wanderer's Palace) in XIV where it was used fairly often in XI.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

But Numb would still slot into a rotation; there would be an optimal time to use it and sub-optimal times that would remain the same essentially regardless of the fight you are engaged in.

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It would have a rule set within a rotation. It wouldn't always be utilized the same way as it drastically depends on what kind of threat you are expecting to work with inside a 60 seconds window.

How you use it in regards to attacking a boss for 5 minutes or an add that dies in 20 seconds would be two completely different things.

It's like having a Max damage/High threat rotation and a Normal Damage/Optimal threat rotation, only difference is that the player doesn't decide for the normal damage rotation if they manage the resources effectively. They don't get that feeling of holding back because of the resource system because they can do a Max Damage/ Optimal threat rotation. If they fail to manage the resource correctly, then the penalty will occur somewhere (lower their own dps or pull and cause chaos).

I think its fine as it is.

If everyone is doing their job, resource management is a non-issue.

If everyone derps it up, resource management becomes a VERY VERY blatant and important thing.

Just yesterday I did the Gilgamesh fight, a very easy encounter, right? Well yeah it was, simply because I was on the ball with healing those who weren't avoiding damage properly. And for the first time in a while, I went OOM. I popped Shroud and had to go into conservative mode. Had to triage players based on what I perceived to the best route. What this meant is I had to watch the DPS and let the weakest link die and keep the ones alive that assured success.

Wasn't just the DPS's fault. The other healer could have pulled their weight a little more. But that's the nature of Full Parties, sometimes you just gotta pick up the slack. Not everyone is going to be perfect. All resource management would do is require casual players in the DF to be perfect on fights like Gilgamesh and that isn't good for the prosperity of the game by any means.

We gotta have our easy fights to keep the masses happy. And our harder fights to keep the more adept players happy. And right now, it works.