Could we get some "Mainstream" content?

I was reading this thread and this bit caught my attention:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EmiliM

The development team categorizes the players into three categories: the "Hardcore" players, the "Mainstream" players, and the "Casual" players.

From a population perspective, the causal players make up maybe about 60% of the population, the mainstream players perhaps another 30% or so (might not be exact). Now, the true hardcore players probably take up less than 10% of the population.

---

I know where the content is for the "Hardcore" players (Coil and EX Primals) and the "Casual" players (4 man dungeons, Crystal Tower and Hunts); so where is the content for the "Mainstream" player? You know the players who started 2.3 at i99?

Based on the responses in this thread, seems like the <10% doesn't care much about the ~30% and want them to join either the ~60% or the <10%, and well considering the lack of 'mid core' content looks like SE doesn't care either, at least until 3.0.

I hope they change their content structure with the expansion.

I would call the primals midcore if you are basing it off difficulty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xatsh

I would call the primals midcore if you are basing it off difficulty.

---

Which Primals? The original 3 HM Primals, Ultima HM, Thornmarch HM could count when originally released, but Levi and Ramuh HM are pretty casual and calling them "Hard" is a bit of a misnomer. The EXs are most definitely Hardcore content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Which Primals? The original 3 HM Primals, Ultima HM, Thornmarch HM could count when originally released, but Levi and Ramuh HM are pretty casual and calling them "Hard" is a bit of a misnomer. The EXs are most definitely Hardcore content.

---

I am referring to EXs, anything besides that are very casual in terms of difficulty.


But with exs

It takes people less then 1 day to kill them every time they are released.

You can spam them without cooldowns.

You get guaranteed drops.

What makes them hardcore now?

You're classifying wrong op, coil and Ex primals are for the Mainstream 30%. It's savage coil that's for the Hardcore 10%

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xatsh

I would call the primals midcore if you are basing it off difficulty.

---

Unfortunately, the primals are also completely irrelevant, especially in terms of gear now that the UAT weapons are so easy to upgrade with Sands of Time. The only reason to do primals at all is for vanity purposes and for the initial clear. That's basically it.

Coil is too difficult/requires too much commitment for "mainstream" players (and is obviously untouchable for casual players) and the Crystal Tower is incredibly, mind-numbingly easy. We need something in-between that actually gives gear like Coil and the Crystal Tower do. (It can fit pretty neatly in-between as well - if Coil is i110, the mid-core content can be i105, plus sands, oils, and UAT for Soldiery upgrades.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xatsh

I am referring to EXs, anything besides that are very casual in terms of difficulty.

---

Which is the point I'm trying to make. Stuff is either Hardcore High difficulty or Casual "Everyone can do it." Their is no middle ground.

Quote:

---

But with exs

It takes people less then 1 day to kill them every time they are released.

---

Hardcore players (i.e. the top 10% of the playerbase) are the ones getting those day one clears. Blue Garter cleared SCoB T1-T3 within the first 5 days of patch 2.2, but it is still considered hardcore content. Just because they were completed day one does not mean they are medium difficulty. Lev EX and Thornmarch EX were locked behind Ifrit EX which was locked behind Titan EX. The 10% of the player base that could clear Titan EX were the ones doing Levi EX and Thornmarch EX day one.

Quote:

---

You can spam them without cooldowns.

You get guaranteed drops.

---

Neither of those things make the difficulty of the EX Primals any different than what it is. A single player messing up at the wrong time in any of them can and will cause a wipe.

Quote:

---

What makes them hardcore now?

---

Difficulty and the percentage of players who are completing them or have completed them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khaoticsuccubus

You're classifying wrong op, coil and Ex primals are for the Mainstream 30%. It's savage coil that's for the Hardcore 10%

---

With the amount of time commitment needed for coil I don't think it's aimed for a 40%, savage coil was created for a special part of the <10% that wanted more, a really small part that doesn't care much about rewards and more about challenges, call it high-end hardcore or the real hardcore (since most of the 10% just blow through guides to get there).

Part of the problem is that initial difficulty and actual difficulty are two different things
People used to say the HM primals were pretty tough. Now we can sleep walk through them because we've done them to death.
That's part of the problem I think a lot of people miss: EVERYTHING in this game has a learning curve, sometimes to an absurd and counterintuitive degree. But just like learning a proper attack chain, once you've done it enough it ceases being hard. The "mainstream" as it stands right now is, I would say, Levi EX and t5-t7. Why? Because that's what I see most of the groups in PF shooting for. Mainstream is what is "popular" and "middle of the ground." Those encounters fit that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

but Levi and Ramuh HM are pretty casual and calling them "Hard" is a bit of a misnomer.

---

Just call them "story mode", because they are inside of the mainstory.

I think Primal Ex fit the bill, although Titan is not forgiving AT ALL. Way too much.

Levi EX is the best example of mainstream for me. It's hard, but it's also not as unforgiving as Titan. Coil 1 as well (now that it has echo).

I would agree that Ex primals are "mainstream".

I wouldn't categorize content according to their difficulty directly, however. Instead, I'd consider more the time investment required for such content; specifically the amount of structured time you must dedicate to a specific content.

People tend to categorize casual - hardcore and the gradient between them based on difficulty as if, for some reason, casual players were bad players and hardcores were specially good at playing. This is by no means truth and I'd bet my hide that you find the same proportionally good and bad players in both groups. The difference is one of them is bigger than the other, thus bad players seem more prolific (and in raw numbers are of course more).

On the other hand, structured time is usually the mark of a hardcore player. These are players that are able and willing to commit their game time for a specific goal with specific organization. Note that this doesn't refer to the amount of time invested, as there's certainly casuals that invest copious amounts of time into the game and hardcores that don't play as much.

The thing is, to dedicate your time to a goal you must commit with other like minded people who are willing to commit the same amount of time and, what's more prohibitive, the same time frames. Perhaps the younger people reading this won't understand it but as a more adult gamer the problem isn't necessarily not having time for your hobby but actually having a steady schedule for it.

So if you rate content in terms of structured time requirements, only Coil 2 fits the bill. The rest of the content starts at the mid range part of the gradient with Extreme primals (yes, all of them, even Titan) down to the absolute casual content.

I would agree that there's mostly casual content and that perhaps the worst part of 2.2 and onwards is the elimination of actually relevant mid range content. While Ex primals are mid range in my mind, they are also pointless in terms of actual progression... even Ramuh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xatsh

I am referring to EXs, anything besides that are very casual in terms of difficulty.

---

I mostly agree with this but it's really really too bad the rewards really does not fit its level. Anymore, that is. I really don't understand why they're...what's the word, trivializing the ex primals? The first thing people compare when it comes to gear reward is item level before calculating their secondary stats and majority of the 2.2 primal rewards and beyond are generally inferior to 'casual' soldiery at first glance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gardes

I mostly agree with this but it's really really too bad the rewards really does not fit its level. Anymore, that is. I really don't understand why they're...what's the word, trivializing the ex primals? The first thing people compare when it comes to gear reward is item level before calculating their secondary stats and majority of the 2.2 primal rewards and beyond are generally inferior to 'casual' soldiery at first glance.

---

This is one of the biggest cons of vertical progression: equipment of a certain level will, at some point, be rendered useless to the general player base (that being players who are moving forward and want to become stronger). In the case of XIV, this point comes every 6 months (or every 2 patches).

The other problem that XIV has is that new content that is added requires a higher item level for participation. Whilst content is generally added for all levels and play styles (i.e. story related content is of a lower level than the 3 new dungeons, which are in turn lower level than the current top tier content), in comparison to the previous content addition, the shift progressively increases. This wouldn't normally be an issue, I don't think, but the ease of access to the "baseline" equipment is too much that it renders even the recently added content practically obsolete to most players, especially those in the "I want to get stronger" camp. You don't find very many players who are gearing up using dungeons like the latest expert dungeons, or last patch's expert dungeons. It's just unnecessary to do that (outside of collecting gear for some alt classes).

That's really the main thing that needs to be "fixed". I'm all for trying to let players play catch up but it's a little ridiculous at how easy and fast that can be. For me, personally, I get more satisfaction out of earning my gear and my strength. But with the current ease of access to top tier gear, I don't feel that at all. I've kept away from the Hunts because I feel it cheapens the whole game, but as we're (the people I play with) are doing these and pushing ahead, I'm starting to feel like I'll have to in order to keep up.

tl;dr I'd rather see meaningful content, regardless of what level/tier of -core it sits at, than simply adding in more of the content that people won't want to do because there's an easier path somewhere else. (But trying to change human nature isn't something a game is going to do, without punishing the more casual players at the same time).

I would argue that EX Primals are often too easy to be considered "mainstream" content minus Ramuh, which requires some coordination, but you could still learn all these fights in a day. You can actually queue up in DF now and have a good chance of beating Levi EX. I wouldn't call SCoB hardcore. People have mentioned the time needed to do SCoB, but that's up to you and your group, really. You could just dedicate an hour or an hour and a half two days out of the week if you want to. You're the one that sets the pace.

The primary hurdle for doing content in this game is actually setting up the time to build the party to do the content. Plenty of people don't want to commit to statics, but still want to get together and do the content that makes up the current end game. DF helps a ton with this and I wish they would allow people to just queue individually for the latest content instead of holding it off. I mean, if someone wants to learn ramuh EX it's going to be faster to just throw oneself together with a bunch of other people via a Duty Finder queue than to have to build a learning group that is going to achieve the same results. Once people have progressed far enough to get the idea of the fight Party Finder starts making more sense.

I would classify content as this:

Casual - Dungeons, Story Elements
Mainstream - CT/ST, Primals HM
Hardcore - Coil, Primal EX

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alukah

With the amount of time commitment needed for coil I don't think it's aimed for a 40%, savage coil was created for a special part of the <10% that wanted more, a really small part that doesn't care much about rewards and more about challenges, call it high-end hardcore or the real hardcore (since most of the 10% just blow through guides to get there).

---

Savage Coil, per Yoshida, was designed as an experiment if people would want harder content - The problem, however, is it shares lockout with the current progression content (Coil 2) so more are less inclined to even play around with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alukah

With the amount of time commitment needed for coil I don't think it's aimed for a 40%, savage coil was created for a special part of the <10% that wanted more, a really small part that doesn't care much about rewards and more about challenges, call it high-end hardcore or the real hardcore (since most of the 10% just blow through guides to get there).

---

If someone doesn't have the time or commitment needed for coil then that means they fall into the 60%, casual playerbase. This isn't really about what one person or the other defines as being mainstream or not. It's what SE divides them into. Coil was not put in there to cater to 10% of the playerbase. Savage coil was however.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

Savage Coil, per Yoshida, was designed as an experiment if people would want harder content - The problem, however, is it shares lockout with the current progression content (Coil 2) so more are less inclined to even play around with it.

---

The lockout is not an issue, since the lockout only occurs once you complete the dungeon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khaoticsuccubus

If someone doesn't have the time or commitment needed for coil then that means they fall into the 60%, casual playerbase. This isn't really about what one person or the other defines as being mainstream or not. It's what SE divides them into. Coil was not put in there to cater to 10% of the playerbase. Savage coil was however.

---

I don't know where you're getting these numbers from, but this is patently incorrect.

For example, using WoW as an example, less than 5% of the playerbase will ever complete normal raids (forget about Heroic Mode - that's for the 1%ers, which is what Savage Mode is the equivalent of). It is completely inarguable that the Coil is intended for the hardcore 10% (maybe not even 10%, more like 5% really) of the playerbase. You can make-believe that it's intended for the mainstream 30% but you're just making stuff up from thin air at that point (as well as ignoring reality).

The truth is simply that there isn't much in the way of content for the "mainstream" 30%, and basically nothing in the way of worthwhile "mainstream" content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

The lockout is not an issue, since the lockout only occurs once you complete the dungeon.



I don't know where you're getting these numbers from, but this is patently incorrect.

For example, using WoW as an example, less than 5% of the playerbase will ever complete normal raids (forget about Heroic Mode - that's for the 1%ers, which is what Savage Mode is the equivalent of). It is completely inarguable that the Coil is intended for the hardcore 10% (maybe not even 10%, more like 5% really) of the playerbase. You can make-believe that it's intended for the mainstream 30% but you're just making stuff up from thin air at that point (as well as ignoring reality).

The truth is simply that there isn't much in the way of content for the "mainstream" 30%, and basically nothing in the way of worthwhile "mainstream" content.

---

K first of all, those magic numbers I'm making up are right there in the first post, I'm just reusing them.

Second, coil and ex primals are done on a regular basis by those SE dubs "mainstream". Is the mainstream the majority? No, but neither is it the minority. Your little comparison to wow would have been accurate many years ago. Nowadays that's changed completely. Coil is hard but, its not so hard it locks out everyone but the hardcore.

Players with time regularly attempt and make decent progress in it. Doesn't even matter if they complete it 100% or not, only that the attempt is being made and that progress is happening. This is something the casual base isn't really capable of as much for one reason or another, and something the hardcore base will have already completed months ago. Hence, the "mainstream" base is born.

First of all, all of those clear parties you're seeing on the PF are STILL the hardcore 10%. Simply being more visible does NOT mean they are more numerous. Furthermore, they are essentially the only type of content besides Hunts that actually necessitates use of the Party Finder in the first place; anything on DF Roulette is easily pugged with randoms (and I can assure you there are hundreds of times more people on the DF than on all the servers' PF combined).

Secondly, the First Coil and the Extreme Primals are obsoleted content. For the purposes of this discussion they are entirely irrelevant. Very few people are going to run First Coil or any EX Primal for the gear. The whole point of this thread is to have content that is still gear-relevant while serving the "mainstream" group in terms of difficulty and engagement.

Thirdly, the players who complete Second Coil within days of release are the ULTRA-HARDCORE 0.1%! They are an extremely small handful, a tiny, tiny fraction of the total population. For the purposes of this discussion they are, again, completely irrelevant. Those are the people Savage Mode was intended for, and I can assure you nowhere NEAR 10% of the population is running Savage Mode.

Finally, there is reason to believe you are suffering from a level of cognitive bias (something that is going to be present in pretty much anyone who's a part of the hardcore segment). Because the "hardcore" are more visible to you, personally, as an individual, you make the fallacious assumption that they are actually more numerous than they really are. This doesn't change the facts, just your perception of them. Again, the number of players engaging with the "hardcore" content is actually a shockingly low proportion of the player base.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

First of all, all of those clear parties you're seeing on the PF are STILL the hardcore 10%. Simply being more visible does NOT mean they are more numerous. Furthermore, they are essentially the only type of content besides Hunts that actually necessitates use of the Party Finder in the first place; anything on DF Roulette is easily pugged with randoms (and I can assure you there are hundreds of times more people on the DF than on all the servers' PF combined).

Secondly, the First Coil and the Extreme Primals are obsoleted content. For the purposes of this discussion they are entirely irrelevant. Very few people are going to run First Coil or any EX Primal for the gear. The whole point of this thread is to have content that is still gear-relevant while serving the "mainstream" group in terms of difficulty and engagement.

Thirdly, the players who complete Second Coil within days of release are the ULTRA-HARDCORE 0.1%! They are an extremely small handful, a tiny, tiny fraction of the total population. For the purposes of this discussion they are, again, completely irrelevant. Those are the people Savage Mode was intended for, and I can assure you nowhere NEAR 10% of the population is running Savage Mode.

Finally, there is reason to believe you are suffering from a level of cognitive bias (something that is going to be present in pretty much anyone who's a part of the hardcore segment). Because the "hardcore" are more visible to you, personally, as an individual, you make the fallacious assumption that they are actually more numerous than they really are. This doesn't change the facts, just your perception of them. Again, the number of players engaging with the "hardcore" content is actually a shockingly low proportion of the player base.

---

Lol, you don't seem to be comprehending the basic issue here in the slightest. Square, the peoples in charge of this game, of whom this thread started because of, sections the playerbase off into 3 groups. Three, not two, not four, Three groups only. Hardcore, mainstream, casual. That's it. From THEIR standpoint, coil (and I'm talking current coil here) as well as extreme primals (while ex primals can be pugged it's not often a pug group actually succeeds and therefore are NOT easily pugged, especially current ex primals) are targeted towards the mainstream group.

The hardcore (again from SE's pov) have savage coil targeted towards them. If they choose to burn through content within a week YoshiP specifically said it was okay for them to play another game and come back later when more content was added. Finally, the casual playerbase (those that make up the vast majority of the playerbase) has everything else for the most part (yes old coil included).

PS: I'm casual btw. Never stepped foot in any current coil and don't care to. I don't even do speedruns or hunts to gear myself any. I haven't looked in party finder in forever since I don't use it (I'd rather let duty finder put me in a group). CT, Daily roulettes, leveling, story, chocobo dyeing, new hairstyles, glamours, and emotes are what concern me the most. I go after cool LOOKING gear so long as I don't find it too much of a pain in the rear. (^_~)v

http://i.imgur.com/9l0uyNo.png

Are we really trying to use class warfare in this thread? Should I pigeon hole every player I meet by what content they do?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Khaoticsuccubus

Three groups only. Hardcore, mainstream, casual. That's it. From THEIR standpoint, coil (and I'm talking current coil here) as well as extreme primals (while ex primals can be pugged it's not often a pug group actually succeeds and therefore are NOT easily pugged, especially current ex primals) are targeted towards the mainstream group.

The hardcore (again from SE's pov) have savage coil targeted towards them. If they choose to burn through content within a week YoshiP specifically said it was okay for them to play another game and come back later when more content was added. Finally, the casual playerbase (those that make up the vast majority of the playerbase) has everything else for the most part (yes old coil included).

---

I must disagree. SCoB cannot be considered mainstream not due to its difficulty but due to one simple fact: lock downs. Coil 2 is behind a one victory per week, which effectively makes it an activity that encourages having a static for it. To have a static you must be able to commit to playing at specific times, which is something not all players can.

I insist, notice how I don't label players by the difficulty of the content they tackle or even amount of time invested. I label them by the accessibility to spend time in the game. I believe the hardcore crowd is that which is able and willing to commit specific time frames of their daily life to play a video game, as opposed to spending such time in a more erratic manner (regardless of the amount spent).

Savage Coil is really just an experiment and a toy for the 1% to play with when they are bored. Hardcore players make more than just the small fraction of people capable of beating Savage (in this case the difficulty is relevant when defining the group of players that does Savage Coil).

To sum it up, I do think SE is targeting 3 + 1 distinct groups of players and, in my view, the middle group is the one most left behind since 2.2 changed the face of end game.

Regardless of SCoB being for midcore gamers, there aren't a whole lot of people clearing it. Either we have less raiders or people just aren't as enthusiastic about Coil as they once were in previous patches. The boss dancing feels like it keeps getting bumped up every patch. I agree it isn't "hard" once learned, but it's a matter of getting eight people who have all mastered the dance in the same exact fashion so they actually coordinate properly. The lockouts only aggravate the situation by preventing people from practicing the fights.