Stat Weights

I was just wondering if there is a set stat weight for war and pld, like it is for the dps? I realize it may differ and be situational, it would just be interesting to know approximtly how much for example one def is worth contra one parry or one VIT ect ect

Enough HP to survive the encounter is first. That number is tank/healer/encounter dependent.

Enough ACC to not miss.

After that add as much STR as possible.

Then it's DET > Crit > SS like a DPS

For progressive content Parry can be useful but once the fight is figure out it generally just leads to over heals.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

For progressive content Parry can be useful but once the fight is figure out it generally just leads to over heals.

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I'd also say that Parry is useful for multiple mob tanking in dungeons/speed runs. There's far more opportunities for it to proc in the same amount of time which should help to reduce some of the damage being taken. Even for a PLD where blocking precedes parrying; it makes a good safety net. In this case, it's worth having a set of gear that maximises your HP and defensive stats rather than a set more focused on DPS. If your DPS can't handle the number of active enemies, the tank adding to DPS isn't going to make much of a difference.

Although, even that depends entirely on which dungeon being run. Earlier ones won't need as much defence because they are lower level anyway.

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Originally Posted by Themis

I'd also say that Parry is useful for multiple mob tanking in dungeons/speed runs. There's far more opportunities for it to proc in the same amount of time which should help to reduce some of the damage being taken. Even for a PLD where blocking precedes parrying; .

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The parry stat increases the chances to block/parry, so Paladin actually profits more from this then warrior

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Originally Posted by Tam_Hawkins

The parry stat increases the chances to block/parry, so Paladin actually profits more from this then warrior

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wrong, the pld benefits from parry far less than war =)

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Originally Posted by Hecky

I was just wondering if there is a set stat weight for war and pld, like it is for the dps? I realize it may differ and be situational, it would just be interesting to know approximtly how much for example one def is worth contra one parry or one VIT ect ect

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its still the same like it was at beta:
ilvl > acc > rest.

-> with ilvl your mainstat is set, including str on leftside items
-> acc around the cap needed for the specific encounter to maintain aggro (not more, since it would be wasted statvalue; maybe to prepare for future content havin some acc gear in the bag is quite usefull)
-> rest, a lot retesting has been done this year (to prove/disprove the early findings) and it has shown, that parry isnt that valuable for the pld like early peeps thought it would be

maingoal for tank should always be:
aim for gear with highest ilvl possible, stay around acc as needed, fill up remaining lower ilvl slots with higher lvl ones.

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Originally Posted by ks3v3n

wrong, the pld benefits from parry far less than war =)

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Just checked it and you are right.... I have no idea why I had the idea it would increase blocking (I thought i read it in the stats description but obviously thats wrong...)

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Originally Posted by Themis

I'd also say that Parry is useful for multiple mob tanking in dungeons/speed runs. There's far more opportunities for it to proc in the same amount of time which should help to reduce some of the damage being taken.

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This is a logical fallacy, though. Parry is going to reduce the same average % of damage no matter the number of targets. Sure you'll see "Parried XX%" pop up more often but the parry only does anything to that single hit. There's no multi-target benefit like you might see with, say, Thundercloud procs. On average parry is going to do the exact same mitigation on a single target as it will on multiple targets, DPS held equal.

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

This is a logical fallacy, though. Parry is going to reduce the same average % of damage no matter the number of targets. Sure you'll see "Parried XX%" pop up more often but the parry only does anything to that single hit. There's no multi-target benefit like you might see with, say, Thundercloud procs. On average parry is going to do the exact same mitigation on a single target as it will on multiple targets, DPS held equal.

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wrong. its simple statistic/math, compare both examples:
a) 1 mob hits you 10 times in a specific time period
b) n mobs hit you 10 times each in the same specific time period

you have more possibilities were a parry can happen, so the chance of parry an attack increases. 25% parry doesnt mean, you parry 2.5 of 10 attacks for sure ;) but more likely 25 of 100 :o
its the same fact, that you still can fail a 100 crafts at 99% successrate :o

You're not understanding:
Yes, you'll parry more often. You get hit more, it goes off more.
No, you're not getting bonus effectiveness out of it when there are more people hitting you. Here, damage is damage and parry's average effect on the total damage taken is the same if it comes from multiple targets or only one. Over a sufficiently long engagement there is no difference.

That overall effect isn't all that great.

In multi mob situations lots of parry is indeed more useful than dps stats because you probably need more mitigation (situationally of course) and your dps will be the ones that need to kill them quickly. Of course you don't get *bonus* efficacy out of it, the point is though, for most multi mob situations your health is probably going to plummet very quickly. In the current state of the tanks more mitigation outdoes more damage stats for situations like that because your dps increase is not enough to offset the amount of damage you take compared to just gearing for mitigation. If the opposite was true then I'd say sure go balls to the wall, but currently for multi mob packs slightly more tank dealt damage doesn't offset that as tank damage, while not completely negligible, is still very low for AoE packs. Warrior has a decent advantage there, but that'd probably drain alot of their TP and lower their survivability a bit and still wouldn't feel much of an impact from dps stats, but all PLD has for aoe dmg is CoS every once in a while(25-30secs iirc?).

For single target though? That train of thought is generally correct. Your hp most likely isn't being ripped to shreds constantly so getting enough health and using CD correctly will enable you to use some dps increasing stats to expedite the length of the battle.

Let's pretend Featherfoot was like parry. Would you use featherfoot when one mob is hitting you? Or 10? More chances to proc dodge when there are 10 mobs.

Now, is Featherfoot just like parry? Not exactly. However, if fighting one mob, you may wind up outside the bell curve for your parry rate (maybe you parry 9 of 10. Maybe you parry 0/10). But, if you have 10 mobs on you, you are very likely to hit that 25% parry rate.

And I don't think parry leads to overheals when it matters. Any time that your HP drops below what a single heal would heal you to full for, parry helps. Sure, if you have 9000/10000hp and parry blocked 250dmg and your healer was going to heal you anyway... then no. Parry does not help. But if you take 3000 damage and blocked 750 of it and you are only healed for 1500, then you are 750hp ahead of the game.

Be careful how you word that, just because more mobs are hitting you at the same time, does not mean you are parrying more often. It just means you are seeing the effects of parry in a small concentrated time frame.
And while this indeed will probably help you stay alive, due to the fact you are taking a lot of damage, your parry rate will not increase just because more things are hitting you.


Parry is slightly better for warriors this is a fact.

Parry isn't all that great in general this is a fact.

As has been said, parry is only really good when you're getting hit a lot of times since it gives you a lot of chances to parry and its effect will be more dependable (law of large numbers and all that). And you will usually need a lot of consistent healing in those situations so it will have more of an effect of reducing the load on the healer.

Basically it's only really good for speed runs.

No not really, you parry the same % no matter how many mobs are hitting you. The effects just seem more noticeable because in that short time frame you are incurring more attacks.

Parry is as good against 10 mobs as it is against 1 mob. It mitigates the same %.

Higher mitigation when 10 things are hitting you at once is def more helpful. But again parry's usefullness is still exactly the same, because you parry for the exact same %.

If your defense rose by 10 you would not claim that to be more useful on 10 mobs than on 1 mob. It still mitigates the same %.

The fact is that more mitigation parry or otherwise is very good for keeping you alive during 10 mob attack,due to the damage you are sustaining in a short time frame and the risk of death.
But the parry stat is not suddenly more or less useful in and of itself.

The larger the data sample the more accurate the percentage.

If you have 20% parry rate with one mob hitting you over the course of a minute the RNG will have a broad range.

If you have 10 mobs hitting you the range will be more narrow and closer to the 20% mark.

The more predictable parry is the more useful it is since it's biggest flaw is how unreliable it is.

(This still doesn't make it good but outlines why it is more useful during a duration with more mobs)

SirTaint, in your example the actual parry rate is just as likely to be above the expected 20% than below it.
Yes a larger sample size will see the parry rate come closer to the expected amount, but that is not inherently a more favorable number.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

No not really, you parry the same % no matter how many mobs are hitting you. The effects just seem more noticeable because in that short time frame you are incurring more attacks.

Parry is as good against 10 mobs as it is against 1 mob. It mitigates the same %.

Higher mitigation when 10 things are hitting you at once is def more helpful. But again parry's usefullness is still exactly the same, because you parry for the exact same %.

If your defense rose by 10 you would not claim that to be more useful on 10 mobs than on 1 mob. It still mitigates the same %.

The fact is that more mitigation parry or otherwise is very good for keeping you alive during 10 mob attack,due to the damage you are sustaining in a short time frame and the risk of death.
But the parry stat is not suddenly more or less useful in and of itself.

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MythToken got it right.

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Originally Posted by MythToken

No not really, you parry the same % no matter how many mobs are hitting you. The effects just seem more noticeable because in that short time frame you are incurring more attacks.

Parry is as good against 10 mobs as it is against 1 mob. It mitigates the same %.

Higher mitigation when 10 things are hitting you at once is def more helpful. But again parry's usefullness is still exactly the same, because you parry for the exact same %.

If your defense rose by 10 you would not claim that to be more useful on 10 mobs than on 1 mob. It still mitigates the same %.

The fact is that more mitigation parry or otherwise is very good for keeping you alive during 10 mob attack,due to the damage you are sustaining in a short time frame and the risk of death.
But the parry stat is not suddenly more or less useful in and of itself.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

The larger the data sample the more accurate the percentage.

If you have 20% parry rate with one mob hitting you over the course of a minute the RNG will have a broad range.

If you have 10 mobs hitting you the range will be more narrow and closer to the 20% mark.

The more predictable parry is the more useful it is since it's biggest flaw is how unreliable it is.

(This still doesn't make it good but outlines why it is more useful during a duration with more mobs)

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^ this

It's not about the %, it's about the reliability of it. When you're getting hit a lot, you can rely on it to mitigate a roughly consistent amount of damage most of the time. If you don't get hit very often, its performance can vary wildly. This means in a low frequency setting against 1 mob, you and your healers can't rely on it and will have to heal/use cooldowns with the expectation that you won't parry those big hits where it matters.

While PLD benefit less from Parry... Parry I believe actually puts paladin's mitigation higher than a War. Total mitigation for WAR at 600 parry and 25% reduction is roughly 12% overall mitigation. For PLD with the same stats it is rough 8%, however our shield (Novus/High Allagan) gives us roughly 9%, combine the two for a Total mitigation of ~17%... So while we benefit less from Parry overall, when stacked with shield blocking, it is still very useful for full mitigation builds.

Here is the math:

1000 hits for 100 damage = 100,000 total damage
600 Parry = 46% change to parry (600/13)
at ilvl 110 and all vit pieces = 25% reduction on parried attacks.
Novus/High Allagan = 31% block rate, 31% block chance

So Block has a chance to happen first, if it does no parry can happen.

For PLD:
1000 attacks at 100 damage = 100,000
310 attacks blocked at 31 damage reduced = 9610 damage reduced (roughly 9-10% mitigation)
690 attacks left at 100 damage = 69,000 damage left
317 attacks parried (690x46%) at 25 damage reduced = 7925 damage reduced (roughly 7-8% mitigation)

For WAR
1000 attacks at 100 damage = 100,000
460 attacks parried (1000x46%) at 25 damage reduced = 11500 damage reduced (roughly 11-12% mitigation)

Nice Lothar! interesting stuff

I think back to a few other points about the reliability of parry and featherfoot. They arn't something you should be relying on tbh. They are not activated skills that you should be popping for large hits. (well featherfoot is active, but just pop it a ton)

Thier main purpose is to mitigate and the idea that a single mob doesn't attack very often is flawed as well. Auto attacks and queued skills from a boss can and do occur very often and in rapid succession.
You won't even see it normally unless you die from it. But this is where parry is useful, and mitigates damage.

I think a better word for parry would be "luck" because yes, the value you actually parry on a particular fight can vary wildly. And I have out parried a tank that has 100 more parry than me. It happens.

Parry should never be viewed as reliable mitigation for large attacks. It's great when it happens but its not what it is designed for. Parry is still useful for single mob tanking. It just isn't the best in the world.

I think having an overall understanding of parry and why you should or should not have it is helpful to this discussion. Everyone's input here has hit on some key points about parry and its reliability or lack there of.

I just don't think that parry was ever intended to be reliable. But that doesn't necessarily make it bad either.