Is dying reason to be votekicked ?

iv have ran a syrcon tower and died multiple times because even after getting rezzed i didnt get any heal and died almost instantly multiple times , then the whole ally wiped but i got kicked afterwards , so is this a valid reason to get kicked in this game?

If your holding back the party from completing the dungeon I think its valid. For example a tank or healer that can't properly do their role preventing the whole group from progressing.

The only valid reasons for being kicked are:
- Being AFK for extended periods of time
- Being offline for extended periods of time
- Harassment of your fellow party members
- Cheating through third party tools or hacks (exploits too, but I don't think there are any left in the game)

Everything else is abuse of the vote dismissal feature. You can actually have disciplinary action taken if you can give the GMs enough information (i.e. when this occurred, who was in your party at the time, and so on). I, myself, was a victim of vote dismiss abuse recently when someone kicked me for apparently dealing too much damage (and thus taking aggro from the tank). It happens.

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

The only valid reasons for being kicked are:
- Being AFK for extended periods of time
- Being offline for extended periods of time
- Harassment of your fellow party members
- Cheating through third party tools or hacks (exploits too, but I don't think there are any left in the game)

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Nope.

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

However, there is one topic in this thread that seems to be an underlying point of contention: reasons for dismissal that are not strictly "AFK", "Offline", "Harassment", or "Cheating". I would like to address this.

The response from the GM touched on this, although it was missed due to the focus on the first part of that sentence. The reasons for dismissal are not all encompassing, which means that there may be valid reasons for dismissal outside of those four examples. Good examples of this that have been provided in this thread are the refusal to fulfill one's job function. Because of this, it is possible that the reasons provided for dismissal may be found to be accurate if they are used against you. As well, the feelings one may have about the reasons may differ from the feelings of those who voted to dismiss. For example, cultural differences in language may have one person using language they find fairly benign while another person takes great offense to it.

Because of these subjective discrepancies, the final decision on if a violation of the use of the vote dismiss feature is left to a GM after an investigation. In general, abuse of the vote dismiss feature is considered to be a grief tactics violation, which falls under section 3.2 in the Final Fantasy XIV User Agreement. However, it is only after a GM investigation that it can be determined to be a violation of the rules. If you feel that the vote dismiss feature has been abused, please do report it to the GMs through the Help Desk in game, and we will investigate.

LGM Enkrateia

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There are more responses in that thread from Enkrateia, worth a read.

Here's another good one:

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

There is not much ambiguity to that sentence. If a person is intentionally acting in a manner that is detrimental to the completion of the duty, then the use of the vote dismiss feature is unlikely to be a violation.

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Can you (legitimately) be kicked for repeatedly dying? Depends on the circumstances. Will the people who kicked you be punished if you report them? Depends on the GM's interpretation of events.

Poor performance (through DF, at least) is not a reason to be kicked. That is abuse of the system.

There can be a grey area between poor performance and deliberately trolling, but if your side of the argument is fair and relatively unbiased you weren't anywhere near the grey area. This kind of trolling would be not using an enmity generation skills as a tank or not healing as a healer at all at a point where you would be expected to be doing this (being generous I would say from Halatali onwards).

If the party genuinely believed you were underperforming on purpose then they would be right to kick you. If you raised a complaint it would be up to a GM's investigation to decide who was in the right, which is, by necessity, a very fallible process.

Edit: What Bixby said.

I should note, then, that intentionally trolling the party by working against them very easily falls under the "Harassment" category.

The problem is when players use that against players who are trying their best and just aren't doing what they think they should be doing, which is unambiguous abuse of the system.

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

I should note, then, that intentionally trolling the party by working against them very easily falls under the "Harassment" category.

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I think part of the GM's point, from the rest of the posts in that thread, and it's sort of in line with their posts in the big thread about resetting hunts, is that you don't have to be intentionally trolling. If what you're doing is intentional, as in, I am pushing these buttons on purpose and not by accident, and its effect is to hold the party back, it can be a legitimate kick even if you're honestly not out to ruin anyone's day. It's not harassment if you just suck really bad at your job, but it can still be a valid reason for a kick if it's holding the others back.

In this specific case, Harassment would be the closest fit if the rest of the party honestly thought OP was just trolling, but Enkrateia is basically saying you don't need to make your reasoning fit into one of those four categories anyway.

Edit: I don't mean this to be argumentative, btw. Just further clarifying what I was saying.

Seen lots of people vote kicked for being bad and never seen punishment for it, seems like a fine reason.

Are you sure they didn't just kick you so they could leave themselves and you got chosen randomly?

I do not see any situation outlined where poor performance with a good will effort to cooperate constitute a legitimate reason to kick a player, as this behavior is not disruptive. Playing uncooperatively can constitute harassment or disruption. I have not seen any interpretation of the rules where playing poorly on its own constitutes a valid reason. A lot of emphasis is made on the phrase 'refusal', not 'inability'. In this case, the onus would be on fellow party members to make a good-faith effort to educate the problematic player on what they can do to help the party. That said, I am not a GM and this is merely my interpretation of what was written.

In any circumstance where you feel you have suffered vote dismiss abuse even if you are unsure, make a ticket using the in-game support menu. The GM will likely request the server or World of the player(s) who initiated the abusive dismissal, which you can look up on the Lodestone: na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/

The Vote Abandon function exists for a party to leave an instance without needing to vote dismiss another member, so I don't find the possibility that they 'just wanted to leave without a penalty' to be very amenable.

Poor performance is reason enough to be kicked. DRG's in DEX gear, WAR's in STR gear (without enough VIT to cover the difference), BRD's in STR gear, SCH's in INT gear... These are bad players, and while I agree you should be able to wear whatever ou want to on your own time, when you are in a group you are forcing other people to pick up your slack, especially if your gear ilvl is so low you can't get into the raid without equipping 2 Hero's rings, one of which is useless to your role.

I am not elitist, nor do I have much respect for elitists, but on the flip side of that you need to carry your own weight, or you deserve to be kicked for imposing your weakness on other players.

I dont think that anyone should be able to kick someone for dying a lot.
In ST I sometimes just try to do all I can to get my tp to 0 as my monk (not using any aoe attacks) cause Ive done the dungeon sooo many times that I need to find ways to enjoy myself. And well sometimes Im too into it and forget about the aoes or ancient flare or whatever. And it would be really unfair to kick me for something like that.
Luckily no ones ever said anything.

Sorry for bad spelling im tyoing on my phone and it sucks

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Originally Posted by Krr

I have not seen any interpretation of the rules where playing poorly on its own constitutes a valid reason. A lot of emphasis is made on the phrase 'refusal', not 'inability'.

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This is extremely important.

Again, simply not being very good at their job is NOT a valid reason for dismissal. They have to be intentionally doing it in bad faith for it to be a legitimate kick, otherwise it's abuse.

As for

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Seen lots of people vote kicked for being bad and never seen punishment for it, seems like a fine reason.

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It's also worth pointing out that a lot of players don't bother reporting these kinds of things. That doesn't make the behavior acceptable.

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

I dont think that anyone should be able to kick someone for dying a lot.
In ST I sometimes just try to do all I can to get my tp to 0 as my monk (not using any aoe attacks) cause Ive done the dungeon sooo many times that I need to find ways to enjoy myself. And well sometimes Im too into it and forget about the aoes or ancient flare or whatever. And it would be really unfair to kick me for something like that.
Luckily no ones ever said anything.

Sorry for bad spelling im tyoing on my phone and it sucks

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I kind of feel like we're not getting the whole story though. In his post he wrote "because I wasn't getting heals"... that's an excuse I hear a lot from DPS (mostly DRGs :S) that stand in cleaves, AoEs, and otherwise fail to dodge or use things like B4B at inopportune moments. For example, in front of Asclepius or Twintania, or B4B during the enrage of T2... Or a more ST-specific example, not standing in levi circles or running off to be with a different party in the alliance, etc.

If he was dying tons and trying to foist blame off to the healers, I could easily see that backfiring, especially if it's a partial premade. (My statics definitely stood up for me when an underperformer did that, nice change from pugs).

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Originally Posted by Zyrusticae

It's also worth pointing out that a lot of players don't bother reporting these kinds of things. That doesn't make the behavior acceptable.

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The burden of proof is really not on me though, what other players think is acceptable is not proof and not at all relevant.

As some people have said, being dismissed because you are a bad player isn't a legitimate reason to be kicked in my opinion - especially not in content like ST. Saying that, I would rather be partied up with someone who died and died, than someone who is rude, obnoxious; someone who is bringing the group down vocally.

In my opinion if you are constantly dying, you are not pulling your weight in the party. You are not adding adequate dps/heals/lolmeatshield enough and other people are carrying you because you can't stay alive long enough to be of any use = a kick. You aren't worth the space you are occupying in that party at that point. Your detriment is unnecessary, unneeded, and unwanted. Yes, you will be kicked and you should practically expect to be kicked if you are being a waste of space. At this point you are only slightly better than someone who is afk or has permanently disconnected.

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Originally Posted by Kiara1

I dont think that anyone should be able to kick someone for dying a lot.
In ST I sometimes just try to do all I can to get my tp to 0 as my monk (not using any aoe attacks) cause Ive done the dungeon sooo many times that I need to find ways to enjoy myself. And well sometimes Im too into it and forget about the aoes or ancient flare or whatever. And it would be really unfair to kick me for something like that.
Luckily no ones ever said anything.

Sorry for bad spelling im tyoing on my phone and it sucks

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If you're repeatedly dying to easily avoidable damage it's well within the party's right to remove you. You aren't contributing if you're always dead.

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Originally Posted by Ecks007

In my opinion if you are constantly dying, you are not pulling your weight in the party. You are not adding adequate dps/heals/lolmeatshield enough and other people are carrying you because you can't stay alive long enough to be of any use = a kick. You aren't worth the space you are occupying in that party at that point. Your detriment is unnecessary, unneeded, and unwanted. Yes, you will be kicked and you should practically expect to be kicked if you are being a waste of space. At this point you are only slightly better than someone who is afk or has permanently disconnected.

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Not slightly better. Worse. An AFK or disconnected player isn't a 700+266(c2)+133(c1)+266(prot) (maybe another 266 for stoneskin) MP drain on the healer. And that's only res and post-res healing, not damage taken due to other avoidable attacks.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

The burden of proof is really not on me though, what other players think is acceptable is not proof and not at all relevant.

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Precisely! The personal opinions of players demanding that others 'pull their weight' even in this very thread is not relevant. Public opinion on what the vote dismiss system should be used for, as a whole, is not relevant. Vote-dismissing someone due to inability is not permitted by the rules as written and stated. Whether or not it is moral to you or your group is irrelevant; the system permits you to file a report and have a GM review the situation.

The ToS is not a democracy. The ToS will be interpreted as the GMs as they see fit and necessary for a situation at hand to identify victims and prevent abuse in the community. Whether the ToS and the GMs fit this bill is up to debate; personally, the only unjustified long-term bans I have ever seen are the horror stories of players being hacked and put through month-long investigation tribunals for mysterious men who they can't talk to in the company to determine their true identity.

The rest I've personally seen are "Waah! I was an elitist jerk in Duty Finder and talked about my parser in public and this guy reported me for it! Now I can't play for a week! How will I maximize my High Allagan now?"

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Originally Posted by Krr

Precisely. The personal opinions of players demanding that others 'pull their weight' even in this very thread is not relevant. Public opinion on what the vote dismiss system should be used for, as a whole, is not relevant. Vote-dismissing someone due to inability is not permitted by the rules as written and stated. Whether or not it is moral to you or your group is irrelevant; the system permits you to file a report and have a GM review the situation.

The ToS is not a democracy. The ToS will be interpreted as the GMs as they see fit and necessary for a situation at hand.

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From first and third hand experience, though, SE won't do a thing unless it's clearly griefy. Like kicking just before opening a loot chest...

There's been screenshots around of GMs responding that they don't punish kicking for "differences in play styles".

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Originally Posted by Ecks007

In my opinion if you are constantly dying, you are not pulling your weight in the party. You are not adding adequate dps/heals/lolmeatshield enough and other people are carrying you because you can't stay alive long enough to be of any use = a kick. You aren't worth the space you are occupying in that party at that point. Your detriment is unnecessary, unneeded, and unwanted. Yes, you will be kicked and you should practically expect to be kicked if you are being a waste of space. At this point you are only slightly better than someone who is afk or has permanently disconnected.

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Wow.. I just hope the guy won't hang himself after reading your post.

It's a.. GAME. Kick the Healers if you die constantly, there aren't pulling their weight. /sigh

Come on wake up guys. Within the party if someone is dying, perhaps you can examine, asking some questions, perhaps you know.. helping him to become better?

oh wait.. nobody's got time for that, an S-Rank just spawned..

Lucky for you OP, with this patch, you will be able to form your own 24-man alliance with decent people that will hopefully let you learn and better yourself.

This game it's not: you either top it, or quit. There will always be better people than you, and worse. Just like in real life.

They still play the game, giving their best shot (No one really wants to die but hey guess what: it happens, otherwise raise and resurrection wouldn't be on our bars.)

So yeah, find decent players (not skillfully in the game only, but ones with "skills" outside games) that will make your game time fun.

Just like PK bars that would turn our names in red, it would be nice to see the red names of [...] or those that are using votekick like it's a fun button to mash.)

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Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss

Kick the Healers if you die constantly, there aren't pulling their weight. /sigh

Come on wake up guys. Within the party if someone is dying, perhaps you can examine, asking some questions, perhaps you know.. helping him to become better?

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It's very nice when someone's receptive to advice and willing to learn, yes^^

Problem is, too many people blame others. Healers, tanks, other DPS... and trying to give them tips just brings out the hostility.

OP, like you, chose to blame the first though.

My honest advice if the OP is still reading though: Don't sweat the vote kick too much. It happens, both justified and unjustified. I'd recommend maybe watching a video of ST fights and having a friend who plays the same class come along and give you advice on specifics of surviving/performing well on your class.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

From first and third hand experience, though, SE won't do a thing unless it's clearly griefy. Like kicking just before opening a loot chest...

There's been screenshots around of GMs responding that they don't punish kicking for "differences in play styles".

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Admittedly - I've had contrary first-hand experience of GMs taking votekick abuse very seriously and pretty stern assurances that the offending player would be dealt with. That said - I don't deny experiences to the contrary. Ultimately, there's no penalty for filing a report in good faith, so I would encourage doing so when in doubt. The best we can do - at least from where I'm sitting - is to ensure that abusive behavior reaches the people assigned to dealing with it.

("Differences in playstyles" sounds like corporate babble for either "we don't want to do our jobs" or "we're trying to do our jobs but we can't make guarantees that anything will happen, because we can only officially act on 'play disruption'." That said, I would be very interested in a GM response as to what they define as a "difference in playstyle" and how it is distinct from "abuse".)

Edit in response to what's below me cuz I don't like excessive multiposting:

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Originally Posted by Alukah

And receive either

"Don't tell me how to play my class"

or either

"I don't care"

or

"Lol this is [insert instance name] who cares?"

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Remember that clause about refusal to play one's role and work with the party in good faith? A player saying things like that generally constitutes a refusal.

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Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss

Come on wake up guys. Within the party if someone is dying, perhaps you can examine, asking some questions, perhaps you know.. helping him to become better?

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And receive either

"Don't tell me how to play my class"

or

"I don't care"

or

"Lol this is [insert instance name] who cares?"

Think about why you died consistently. If it was only you dying... it probably want the healers fault, you just need more awareness of the fight mechanics. Learn from that and queue up again. It isn't worth your mental energy to get upset over the rightness or wrongness of the group to kick you (report if you think it truly was harassment).

Without being there I don't think any of us will be able to really give you an accurate opinion on if the kick was justified or not. Just glean something useful from it and move on. If all the damage you took was damage you truly couldn't avoid or mitigate... Then it might be the healer's fault but typically there is something a player could have improved upon.

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Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss

Come on wake up guys. Within the party if someone is dying, perhaps you can examine, asking some questions, perhaps you know.. helping him to become better?

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/sigh more often than not it falls on dead ears. I still try though because sometimes you get someone who responds but... It seems futile most times. I don't kick the person but either stay if I think the PT can carry or leave the group and remove myself from the situation.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

It's very nice when someone's receptive to advice and willing to learn, yes^^

Problem is, too many people blame others. Healers, tanks, other DPS... and trying to give them tips just brings out the hostility.

OP, like you, chose to blame the first though.

My honest advice if the OP is still reading though: Don't sweat the vote kick too much. It happens, both justified and unjustified. I'd recommend maybe watching a video of ST fights and having a friend who plays the same class come along and give you advice on specifics of surviving/performing well on your class.

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Totally agree with you.

If you see the guy's constantly dying, and you try to help, even if told nicely: he then replies: don't teach me how to play.. o.O

Well then even I have to admit that some never learn lessons in life until a punch is going through their face.

At least make the effort to try to help; that was my point.

Some will just look at you like retards (don't they have buttons to mash anyway?) and then if you forgot to add one skill to a rotation: kick. lololol

*trust me, I hate leeches as much as everyone - but circumstances could happen out of your control, you had to pee before and then all you see is a yellow screen in front of you, and the mobs are yellow as starters, so you think they are all Ninja's and you die 'cause they are sooo hot.

Then if you asked them if everything is ok, and you get a yes? And they still seems like trolling or dying.. hmm..

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Originally Posted by Krr

("Differences in playstyles" sounds like corporate babble for either "we don't want to do our jobs" or "we're trying to do our jobs but we can't make guarantees that anything will happen, because we can only officially act on 'play disruption'." That said, I would be very interested in a GM response as to what they define as a "difference in playstyle" and how it is distinct from "abuse".)

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Well, obviously I'm not a GM, but from what I've seen on other threads around this issue--typically players get this response if they were kicked for watching cutscenes or spiritbonding or speedrunning (when the rest of the party doesn't want to), and I've heard via the grapevine it can happen for a few other things as well. I don't really agree with it in all those cases but... *shrug*

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Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss

At least make the effort to try to help; that was my point.

Some will just look at you like retards (don't they have buttons to mash anyway?) and then if you forgot to add one skill to a rotation: kick. lololol

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Ok yeah, I'll 100% agree with you on trying to teach first.