Torn between Black Mage and Summoner!

I had the urge to go back to Summoner after coming back to XIV, but ugh, Im not sure what is happening but I find it near impossible to pick it back up, Black Mage was easy I felt like I remastered it coming back to the game within just a few hours, Summoner though? I have researched every rotation, and tried my best and yet I still fall so incredibly short despite its gear being on par with my BLM gear, and even a bigger issue is how fast I run out of mana, everyone says to refresh your DoT's and etc. and spam ruin 2 when there is nothing else to do, well I do that but I still go OOM about halfway through fights, using Energy Drain feels like a huge dps loss, so I'm not sure what to do, can anyone help? Should I just stick to BLM because its easier and does tons of damage without much effort?

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Originally Posted by leoxastaroth

I had the urge to go back to Summoner after coming back to XIV, but ugh, Im not sure what is happening but I find it near impossible to pick it back up, Black Mage was easy I felt like I remastered it coming back to the game within just a few hours, Summoner though? I have researched every rotation, and tried my best and yet I still fall so incredibly short despite its gear being on par with my BLM gear, and even a bigger issue is how fast I run out of mana, everyone says to refresh your DoT's and etc. and spam ruin 2 when there is nothing else to do, well I do that but I still go OOM about halfway through fights, using Energy Drain feels like a huge dps loss, so I'm not sure what to do, can anyone help? Should I just stick to BLM because its easier and does tons of damage without much effort?

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Always keep DoTs refreshed is 100% true. As far as the mana problem, you shouldn't run into any issues as long as you're keeping Aetherflow on cooldown and not trying to spam Blizzard II or Tri-Disaster. One thing that stuck out like a sore thumb was spamming Ruin II. The only time Ruin II is ever necessary is during movement, otherwise, as you did, you will run out of mana very very easily. Ruin I is your filler spam, Ruin II does the same damage but at a much higher mana cost and is instant.

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Originally Posted by ZeratoTyrael

Always keep DoTs refreshed is 100% true. As far as the mana problem, you shouldn't run into any issues as long as you're keeping Aetherflow on cooldown and not trying to spam Blizzard II or Tri-Disaster.

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Not true. You will go oom when you weave Ruin II between off-GCD abilities (as you should) if the encounter is too long, even if you keep Aetherflow on cooldown.

You generally don't need mana in any fight except T8, in most cases you won't ever need to use Energy Drain unless you die. As for Ruin II's, you should only be using the skill during movement, inbetween off-GCD's (such as Rouse, Spur, Kindle etc) or right before a fester in a Ruin I rotation.

Ex Ruin I -> Ruin I -> (Festers about to come up -> Ruin II -> Fester

Using Garuda also lowers your MP cost over due to contagion.

Don't use Miasma II unless you couple it with a Contagion(for single targets). Try not to clip your DoTs too early. (Recast at about 3-4 seconds for most fights). Make your best out of Bane in multiple enemy scenarios to prevent having to recast fresh DoTs on extra mobs.

SMN for Trials
BLM for everything else
Coils are different.

>inb4 a bunch of idiots saying smn clears trash faster than blm

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Originally Posted by leoxastaroth

and spam ruin 2 when there is nothing else to do

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You do realize that by spamming ruin 2 you are spending twice the amount of mp for the exact same damage as ruin 1? That blind isn't that important and it hits diminishing returns anyway. Like others said, only for moving and for weaving OGCD's.

I guess both job doesn't have the mp issue if played right. SMN wise for ruin2 it heavy mp consumption but still manageable you might not end the dungeon with full MP but you still end it with a little mp left. In lv 50 content I usually find myself use less ruin/ruin2 but more AoE staff like bizzard2 and still keep a good chank of mp with AF so, don't be to conserved with your skill put them out and see what it happen!

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Originally Posted by monkeytheman

You do realize that by spamming ruin 2 you are spending twice the amount of mp for the exact same damage as ruin 1? That blind isn't that important and it hits diminishing returns anyway. Like others said, only for moving and for weaving OGCD's.

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Ruin2 is optimal. Allows for more autoattacks, which carries 0 additional risk in at least half of the current "endgame" fights (counting extremes and coil).

Haven't been back in the game for very long, so apologies if this is a silly question... Umm, are mages supposed to be autoattacking? I haven't seen any do it and it doesn't seem like a great idea to me. Mage autoattacks aren't ranged are they?

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Originally Posted by HereticBliss

Haven't been back in the game for very long, so apologies if this is a silly question... Umm, are mages supposed to be autoattacking? I haven't seen any do it and it doesn't seem like a great idea to me. Mage autoattacks aren't ranged are they?

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mage auto attacks are close range physical.

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Originally Posted by Mjytresz

SMN for Trials
BLM for everything else
Coils are different.

>inb4 a bunch of idiots saying smn clears trash faster than blm

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I must agree with you as BLM 99 & SMN 97 my BLM job does crazy amounts of damage compared to SMN not just because I see the big spikes as BLM does but the DoT SMN does is just not adding up. I fights where you need to kill adds ASAP SMN also fails since the build up is slower that BLM.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Ruin2 is optimal. Allows for more autoattacks, which carries 0 additional risk in at least half of the current "endgame" fights (counting extremes and coil).

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Idk how true this is. You still auto-attack even in casting animations.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Idk how true this is. You still auto-attack even in casting animations.

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You can't auto attack while casting, but you can auto attack between casts if it aligns with the auto attack timing.

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

You can't auto attack while casting, but you can auto attack between casts if it aligns with the auto attack timing.

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When you start theorycrafting your mage with auto-attacks, you know it's time to find something better.

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Originally Posted by Mjytresz

When you start theorycrafting your mage with auto-attacks, you know it's time to find something better.

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There is 0 or near-0 additional cost to being in melee range in: T1, T2 (enrage because nobody does anything else), most of T4, T5 early phases, T6, T8, much of T9, and the extremes of Titan, Leviathan, and Ramuh. That is almost every endgame fight.

AA is like an extra dot. If you wanna ignore it that's fine, but it's not insignificant. Arcanist jobs actually have higher strength than other mages; almost double.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

There is 0 or near-0 additional cost to being in melee range in: T1, T2 (enrage because nobody does anything else), most of T4, T5 early phases, T6, T8, much of T9, and the extremes of Titan, Leviathan, and Ramuh. That is almost every endgame fight.

AA is like an extra dot. If you wanna ignore it that's fine, but it's not insignificant. Arcanist jobs actually have higher strength than other mages; almost double.

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^ This. With Novus I think my autoattack is around the 75 per hit. It does make a difference if you're going for numbers, though obviously, it's not needed.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

but it's not insignificant.

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It is pretty darn insignificant at this point. Over the whole course of a fight its like poping a poison pot. It bring u 5 dps maybe, which if it makes u happy cuz u can do 400+ then great, if not its w.e. Also note that current endgame is none of the fight u listed, and mana is a really problem in all of the savage fights. I tend to run low on mana during second set of slugs in savage 6, and golems in savage 9. Weaving is cool and all, but not worth having to use more energy drains.

To OP, BLM right now is the highest single target and multi target DPS. And to contrary belief, it also has one of the highest skill cap to reach those numbers (500+). SMN is like is probably the most good for everything dps class next to bard, more buttons to push, but less thinking involved, also second lowest single target dps potencial.

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Originally Posted by NightReach

It is pretty darn insignificant at this point. Over the whole course of a fight its like poping a poison pot. It bring u 5 dps maybe, which if it makes u happy cuz u can do 400+ then great, if not its w.e. Also note that current endgame is none of the fight u listed, and mana is a really problem in all of the savage fights. I tend to run low on mana during second set of slugs in savage 6, and golems in savage 9. Weaving is cool and all, but not worth having to use more energy drains.

To OP, BLM right now is the highest single target and multi target DPS. And to contrary belief, it also has one of the highest skill cap to reach those numbers (500+). SMN is like is probably the most good for everything dps class next to bard, more buttons to push, but less thinking involved, also second lowest single target dps potencial.

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It can actually be 3-5% of your total damage output so about 12-20+ DPS.

Pick whatever you like: both are very very good in endgame content. Both can pull high numbers. Both are liked/wanted.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Ruin2 is optimal. Allows for more autoattacks, which carries 0 additional risk in at least half of the current "endgame" fights (counting extremes and coil).

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Did....did you even read my post? And if you are seriously saying that using ruin 2 ALL THE TIME (which the OP said he was) and spending twice the mp for the exact same damage is optimal....you are insane. If you actually bothered to read my post I said FOR WEAVING AND MOVING. Even bolded and underlined it in this post for you to help alleviate the lazy.

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Originally Posted by monkeytheman

Did....did you even read my post? And if you are seriously saying that using ruin 2 ALL THE TIME (which the OP said he was) and spending twice the mp for the exact same damage is optimal....you are insane. If you actually bothered to read my post I said FOR WEAVING AND MOVING. Even bolded and underlined it in this post for you to help alleviate the lazy.

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It is optimal for damage. Period (as long as you are in melee range, which as I described is possible for most fights). Ruin2 + autoattacks > Ruin1.

Read literally 2 posts above you.

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Originally Posted by Uninstall

You can't auto attack while casting, but you can auto attack between casts if it aligns with the auto attack timing.

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Start casting Bio II, set up auto-attack immediately after you press the skill, watch as the auto attack goes through even before you finish casting that Bio II.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Start casting Bio II, set up auto-attack immediately after you press the skill, watch as the auto attack goes through even before you finish casting that Bio II.

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Not sure what your idea of "before you finish casting" is. That's when the cast ends but before the animation finishes. Which is not unique to any spell.

Ruin 2 is done to avoid the "can't AA because I'm casting" thing.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Not sure what your idea of "before you finish casting" is. That's when the cast ends but before the animation finishes. Which is not unique to any spell.

Ruin 2 is done to avoid the "can't AA because I'm casting" thing.

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The attack goes through 3/4ths of the way into a Bio II cast. Before both the animation and the cast time concludes.

Pretty sure you can test it with something longer in cast time like Shadow Flare?

The Ruin 2 vs Ruin 1 argument has been going on since launch of ARR. They do the same damage, and both can be used depending on the player. Some players see SMN as a melee range character to get the extra book hit in, while others (myself) don't really care about it. Both arguments have their pro's and cons. Personally, I'm against us being in melee range because of casting timers. We have to move enough as it is, and to having to add watching out for close attacks seems counterproductive for me. I may be wrong, but having the peace of mind that I can stand back and play range just makes things a bit easier for me. I hope that doesn't make me a bad smn...because I still melt things :D

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Originally Posted by Lycia

The Ruin 2 vs Ruin 1 argument has been going on since launch of ARR. They do the same damage, and both can be used depending on the player. Some players see SMN as a melee range character to get the extra book hit in, while others (myself) don't really care about it. Both arguments have their pro's and cons. Personally, I'm against us being in melee range because of casting timers. We have to move enough as it is, and to having to add watching out for close attacks seems counterproductive for me. I may be wrong, but having the peace of mind that I can stand back and play range just makes things a bit easier for me. I hope that doesn't make me a bad smn...because I still melt things :D

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It doesn't. But the risk of death is the mark of a true SMN!

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Turn 2 Enrage, parts of Turn 5, Turn 6, Turn 8, parts of Turn 9, Titan EX, Ifrit EX, Ramuh EX: The party is stacked behind or near the boss in all mainstream strats anyways. There is 0 additional risk of death.

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This is pretty true.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Not sure what your idea of "before you finish casting" is. That's when the cast ends but before the animation finishes. Which is not unique to any spell.

Ruin 2 is done to avoid the "can't AA because I'm casting" thing.

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I was confused by what you meant here initially. You are correct. It only auto-attacks if it's lined up with when the cast finishes, whereas by contrast the Auto-attack is more guaranteed in between instant cast skills.

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Originally Posted by Lycia

Personally, I'm against us being in melee range because of casting timers. We have to move enough as it is, and to having to add watching out for close attacks seems counterproductive for me.

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Turn 2 Enrage, parts of Turn 5, Turn 6, Turn 8, parts of Turn 9, Titan EX, Ifrit EX, Ramuh EX: The party is stacked behind or near the boss in all mainstream strats anyways. There is 0 additional risk of death.

Turn 1, Turn 4, Leviathan EX: Little additional risk by being in melee range (with exception to knights and soldiers in T4).

Turn 7: If your setup has 3 ranged and you are not the kiter, being in melee range forces fireballs to hit the other 2 ranged which can be beneficial. Only attack to really dodge is Circle Blade.

Garuda EX, Moogle EX: Chaotic, unsafe.

I got my SMN all the way to animus, but I had to retire him. Got boring, replaced all my SMN att points with SCH points instead. I went full time BLM. BLM is just a much more rewarding class and personally I love the raw power and direct damage of the BLM more it kills quick without remorse. Honestly don't think i'm coming back to SMN unless there's some major changes. Just being a DOT class kind of sucks. Even with the ability to raise. Raising while awesome in dire situations is also a major dps loss especially when people keep dying. You spend more aetherflow stacks trying to recover the lost MP rather than using the only strong burst attack the SMN has ie Fester. It can prove troubling when you don't have heavy hitters like a BLM or MNK in your party to make up for the damage you lose from not festering.