Abusing the Trade feature to interrupt, etc

Any word on if this is a bannable offense and if it's going to be fixed anytime soon? It's getting pretty old.

It is harassment. You can use /busy to block it, though.

Does blacklisting someone prevent them from initiating a trade? I know this can happen by accident in a crowded area (right-clicking on wrong toon), but obviously if someone is spamming you over and over, it's a different story. Just blacklist them I guess if that prevents it from happening and report it to see if GM does anything about it.

The simple fact that you're teleporting should be enough that trades aren't allowed. Just this morning someone ran from across the Aftcastle just to trade me as I was teleporting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Najara

Any word on if this is a bannable offense and if it's going to be fixed anytime soon? It's getting pretty old.

---

Lighten up and/or blacklist them.

Sure, it's annoying, but it's really a bit much to want them banned for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Lighten up and/or blacklist them.

Sure, it's annoying, but it's really a bit much to want them banned for it.

---

Come back after people use the exploit to get you killed or fuck you up while doing something important.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Lighten up and/or blacklist them.

Sure, it's annoying, but it's really a bit much to want them banned for it.

---

Eh, maybe not banned but GM jail (does xiv have a GM jail?) would be nice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Verranicus

Come back after people use the exploit to get you killed or fuck you up while doing something important.

---

I don't care for your sob stories, and I think you're inflating the issue.

Permanent suspension is a serious punishment, and should be reserved for only the most dire of issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I don't care for your sob stories, and I think you're inflating the issue.

Permanent suspension is a serious punishment, and it should not be dealt out lightly.

---

Trade troll spotted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Verranicus

Trade troll spotted.

---

Sorry, but I'm not so immature as to think every slight deserves such an indignant response.

People need to chill out, take a deep breath, and think whether their offenders really deserve their outrage.

Yes, they're having a laugh at your expense. Do the GMs need to come in and sort your feelings out for you? I don't think so (for everyone's sake).

If the issue persists, of course, that's a different, more personal, level of harassment.

Our FC does this to each other as a joke but we keep it in the family so to speak. i'd never do it to anyone i dont know, as i know how annoying it can be.

I assume it'll be fixed eventually but until then, /busy will stop any trolls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Sure, it's annoying, but it's really a bit much to want them banned for it.

---

Considering people have been banned for less, such as /tell harassment, emote spamming etc, I wouldn't be surprised about temporary bans for Trade harassment.

Especially since it's NOT just an annoyance.

Trade interruption can also interrupt casting. I've seen it happen, and reported the person who did it. One poor soul was doing a levequest, and probably mistimed a dodge or somewhat (things happen) and was on low HP. She sprinted a distance away, and was casting Cure. Some fool saw, and went and traded her, interrupting her cast. Suffice to say, she ended up dying when the mob caught up to her. The person who traded just /laughed and went away.

That was just for a levequest, which is repeatable. Imagine if people did this to a person doing their Alexandrite maps. Or trying to get their mobs for logs/animus books/quests. Imagine if that get happening to you while fighting a hunt mob. Of course, if you go a melee/archer discipline, this is a non-issue, but as a caster, it's more than just an annoyance, its detrimental.

Of course, you could always argue that people can just set /busy. But they SHOULDN'T. They shouldn't expect to be harassed like this, just as you don't expect to get hot water flung in your face every time you sit down in a restaurant. I may be taking an aggressive stance on this, but being a WHM/SCH main, I wouldn't want this to happen to me at all.

The trade glitch has been around since launch, people used it on obvious bots and it'd screw up the bots (until they started using /busy) but when word got out, people used it on anybody who they assumed is a bot. Seems it's starting to resurface

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

snip

---

I'm not saying the trade mechanics aren't an issue, and I'm not saying that people should just accept bad mechanics.

What I'm saying is that trying to get someone banned because they trade-griefed you once is an overreaction. Apparently, some of you feel otherwise. Fine, but I think that's sad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I'm not saying the trade mechanics aren't an issue, and I'm not saying that people should just accept bad mechanics.

What I'm saying is that trying to get someone banned because they trade-griefed you once is an overreaction. Apparently, some of you feel otherwise. Fine, but I think it's sad.

---

You'd feel diffirently if you're trying to get somewhere. A once-a-day mining node that's about to despawn that you would have made otherwise, or an A/S-rank hunt you could have reached if it wasnt for some jerkface who keeps following you around and trading you for his laughs.

I've had someone literally follow me around for 5 minutes locking me into place.

Why do you feel it's not acceptable to ban someone who is seriously griefing you and is trying to stop you from enjoying the game or getting things done? I certainly dont want those kinds of people or that sort of behavior around on this game. And if asking them doesnt stop it, maybe a ban will make them change their attitudes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

What I'm saying is that trying to get someone banned because they trade-griefed you once is an overreaction. Apparently, some of you feel otherwise. Fine, but I think that's sad.

---

It depends on the severity of that 'once'.

If it's just a minor troll, like in a FATE and once? Ok, I'll ignore it and carry on.

If it's a once that causes death, or ruins a duty like a map? Yup, you can rest assured that report is going straight off to the GMs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surian

You'd feel diffirently if you're trying to get somewhere. A once-a-day mining node that's about to despawn that you would have made otherwise, or an A/S-rank hunt you could have reached if it wasnt for some jerkface who keeps following you around and trading you for his laughs.

I've had someone literally follow me around for 5 minutes locking me into place.

Why do you feel it's not acceptable to ban someone who is seriously griefing you and is trying to stop you from enjoying the game or getting things done? I certainly dont want those kinds of people or that sort of behavior around on this game. And if asking them doesnt stop it, maybe a ban will make them change their attitudes.

---

Misunderstanding

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

If the issue persists, of course, that's a different, more personal, level of harassment.

---

To make it short, if someone does it once just lighten up, it's just a joke.

If someone is following you for 5 minutes that's no longer a joke, that's clear harassment.

Asking to ban someone who did it once is taking things a bit too far, but if someone is continuously trading you then you should report them.

Either way this should get fixed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

It depends on the severity of that 'once'.

If it's just a minor troll, like in a FATE and once? Ok, I'll ignore it and carry on.

If it's a once that causes death, or ruins a duty like a map? Yup, you can rest assured that report is going straight off to the GMs.

---

This is also a valid point ^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

The trade glitch has been around since launch, people used it on obvious bots and it'd screw up the bots (until they started using /busy) but when word got out, people used it on anybody who they assumed is a bot. Seems it's starting to resurface

---

Thanks i didn't know bout this harassment method as it never happened to me. Also thanks for the advice. From now on ill switch to busy every time i'll mine / hunt / do maps or just anything a /trade would end up screwing me, just in case it happens. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

Sorry, but I'm not so immature as to think every slight deserves such an indignant response.

---

However punishing nothing at all sends the message it's ok to do. If they deal out Salvage like bans, people will straighten up quite nicely, even if it's for a short while.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surian

You'd feel diffirently if you're trying to get somewhere. A once-a-day mining node that's about to despawn that you would have made otherwise, or an A/S-rank hunt you could have reached if it wasnt for some jerkface who keeps following you around and trading you for his laughs.

---

No, I wouldn't. I would /busy or /blacklist the offender. I only report people if they're a persistent menace to other people, or if I have literally no other alternative.

Quote:

---

I've had someone literally follow me around for 5 minutes locking me into place.

---

That sucks. That's persistent harassment, and warrants a reaction. Still, I would just /blacklist them and move on.

Quote:

---

Why do you feel it's not acceptable to ban someone who is seriously griefing you and is trying to stop you from enjoying the game or getting things done? I certainly dont want those kinds of people or that sort of behavior around on this game. And if asking them doesnt stop it, maybe a ban will make them change their attitudes.

---

(Extended personal harassment is a different issue than what I was addressing, but I still think GM intervention should be a last resort.)

It sets a dangerous precedent, and I don't trust GMs to issue suspensions judiciously.
I don't think players should immediately turn to GM intervention, just as I don't think people, in real life, should immediately turn to the authorities.
I don't want some players' accounts terminated because some people can't contain their emotions.
Maybe someone deserves to be banned, maybe they don't. But that should not be decided so quickly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

However punishing nothing at all sends the message it's ok to do. If they deal out Salvage like bans, people will straighten up quite nicely, even if it's for a short while.

---

I don't want anyone to be banned undeservedly just to send a message to a few bad apples. That's disgusting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I don't want anyone to be banned undeservedly just to send a message to a few bad apples. That's disgusting.

---

Ah, but if you're harassing someone you're not undeserving - You've broken ToS/EULA by harassing another player. It's more like:

Player: "Ah, think I'll log on and play some XIV."
SE: "Why hello there player, I see you're playing FFXIV today - BANNED!"

^ That is undeserving and simply "to send a message we will ban you."


Compared to:

Player: "Ah, think I'll trade spam people and people I think are bots, I know this counts as harassment but who cares!"
SE: "I see you're harassing people..carry on!"

^ Not punishing.

SE: "I see you're harassing people, you're breaking the terms by doing so as it is also a bannable offense, you will be temporarily suspended or permanently banned depending on prior infractions." This would be punishing someone for breaking the terms you agreed on. I get what you mean, but simply doing nothing at all means you're free to harass and bot and so on and nothing will befall you. Sometimes they need to send a message if they truly ever want to fix certain situations. As exampled with the Salvage Bans, people sure as heck thought twice about openly exploiting and cheating any flaws found in a content system SE released in XI, since entire linkshells were broken and/or banned. It may be seen as bad taste, but it could be worse, they could be scanning our computers constantly and ban us if they see any program interact with the client even if it's harmless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

Ah, but if you're harassing someone you're not undeserving - You've broken ToS/EULA by harassing another player.

---

My judgment isn't dictated by the ToS/EULA. Also, SE is far from infallible. No authority is immune to criticism.

I don't automatically think people deserved to be banned just because they broke the ToS/EULA. I prefer to think for myself.

EDIT: I don't think this "issue" is anywhere near the magnitude of cheating/exploiting through content, so the course of action you're referencing would be highly inappropriate for this situation (low-impact griefing).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

EDIT: I don't think this "issue" is anywhere near the magnitude of cheating/exploiting through content, so the course of action you're referencing would be highly inappropriate for this situation (low-impact griefing).

---

Then I recommend advocating a lesser sentence =p As it stands right now, the point of your posts indicate you believe these people have done nothing significantly bad and thus should get off scoot free and everyone else is over reacting, hence all the hostility towards you.

In essence, this type of griefing / harrassment will probably result in a warning / suspension and not an outright ban unless the player continues this behavior even after being warned / suspended.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

My judgment isn't dictated by the ToS/EULA.

---

This is why it's not your 'say so' - Businesses follow ToS/EULA, which is why they're often the 'bad guys'.

Argyle that's not your place to say, if a person is being a douche, I seen my fair share in FFXI who have been banned for stupid things like this.

Even banned for spamming examining on people also spamming checking their bazaar over and over on purpose.

I believe they had something similar to the trade thing on FFXI also, they patched it cause it was getting in the way of their game play.

If a person tells you to stop and you don't on the first time he asked, its clearly he won't listen and if he gets punished that's on his head, should of stopped when asked the first time.

Just like sexual harassment, if a woman is touched by you and she says stop, do you believe you should be fired from your job if you did it a second time?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Then I recommend advocating a lesser sentence =p As it stands right now, the point of your posts indicate you believe these people have done nothing significantly bad and thus should get off scoot free and everyone else is over reacting, hence all the hostility towards you.

In essence, this type of griefing / harrassment will probably result in a warning / suspension and not an outright ban unless the player continues this behavior even after being warned / suspended.

---

I appreciate what you're saying, but, no, my main point has always been that people need to calm down and think before they consult a GM.

I do NOT trust GMs to mete out fair punishment. Whether they do or do not is beside the point, as far as I'm concerned; this issue just isn't big enough.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tupsi

This is why it's not your 'say so' - Businesses follow ToS/EULA, which is why they're often the 'bad guys'.

---

Huh? My point was that what "deserves punishment" does not equal "what is against ToS/EULA," necessarily. Not in a moral sense, anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeroSamson

Argyle that's not your place to say, if a person is being a douche, I seen my fair share in FFXI who have been banned for stupid things like this.

If a person tells you to stop and you don't on the first time he asked, its clearly he won't listen and if he gets punished that's on his head, should of stopped when asked the first time.

Just like sexual harassment, if a woman is touched by you and she says stop, do you believe you should be fired from your job if you did it a second time?

---

I already said, multiple times, that extended harassment is a different issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

My judgment isn't dictated by the ToS/EULA. Also, SE is far from infallible. No authority is immune to criticism.

---

I agree on the infallible part as people can and will make mistakes. However, I doubt they'd make an error on banning someone who is abusing this mechanic for a laugh or two compared to someone who is doing it with malicious intent. The ToS/EULA is basically the equivalent of law. If people choose to ignore it, no harm, no foul, move on. If it gets elevated to someone with power to make a decision, then it should be followed as the rule states, not based on what the person feels like doing as a result.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Airal

If it gets elevated to someone with power to make a decision, then it should be followed as the rule states, not based on what the person feels like doing as a result.

---

I agree, but that doesn't mean it's fair. My point is: why even elevate this issue to such a degree, when you can manage it yourself? Is that not preferable? Should players be so quick to cry for GMs?

I'll reiterate that extended harassment may require GM intercession.

This issue can easily be fixed by changing so when people initiate trade it pops up a window in bottom right corner that u must open and accept before the trade can begin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devils_Lawyer

This issue can easily be fixed by changing so when people initiate trade it pops up a window in bottom right corner that u must open and accept before the trade can begin.

---

Could be fixed even quicker by simply not allowing people to trade when you are teleporting. Give them a big fat red error with "You cannot currently do that" or something. It's well within SE's power to do this, and it's a meaninglessly simple change.

What i dont get is why people are AGAINST changing it so that trading no longer interrupts teleports? There is no possible legitimate reason you can give for this :/

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Surian

What i dont get is why people are AGAINST changing it so that trading no longer interrupts teleports? There is no possible legitimate reason you can give for this :/

---

I don't think anyone besides griefers would be against this. Nobody in this thread has voiced opposition to the idea, at least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I agree, but that doesn't mean it's fair. My point is: why even elevate this issue to such a degree, when you can manage it yourself? Is that not preferable? Should players be so quick to cry for GMs?

---

I can see that more or less your argument is that people should fend for themselves instead of going home to cry for mommy whenever something doesn't go their way. I can respect wanting to not have to involve someone whenever you have a dispute. But the GMs are there to do a job and can't do anything about something that is not reported to them, serious or not. Part of their job is sifting through what is serious and what isn't. Their hope is that players can help to rout toxic behavior before it becomes a large-scale problem by informing GMs about it. No one's telling you that you personally have to go to a GM for every single issue, but that it should be an option for people who run into a legitimate conflict as a result of something like this or the intentional vote kick misuses (which are a totally different beast than this, I'll admit).

As long as you've gone through the proper steps against it then I don't see why informing a GM would be a problem at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I agree, but that doesn't mean it's fair. My point is: why even elevate this issue to such a degree, when you can manage it yourself? Is that not preferable? Should players be so quick to cry for GMs?

I'll reiterate that extended harassment may require GM intercession.

---

That's what most companies ask you to do to begin with. Try asking them to stop, then try blacklisting them (or whatever), then report if it continues after that. Because if nothing else, if you exhaust your other options beforehand, it's a lot easier for a GM to tell that it's harassment, and makes it harder for the other party to appeal their decisions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I agree, but that doesn't mean it's fair. My point is: why even elevate this issue to such a degree, when you can manage it yourself? Is that not preferable? Should players be so quick to cry for GMs?[/B]

---

The same could be said for resetting hunts. Look what happened.

In the end, harassment IS harassment. I don't mind playful harassment amongst friends (I've been guilty of that, by playing the game of "how low can the tank go". Sometimes I lose.) However, there's a level at which GM intervention will be brought into the issue if it escalates beyond just a pure annoyance.

I don't want to be playing a game where people maliciously harass and disrupt other people's gameplay. I don't want to have to put myself at an unwanted condition (/busy) just so I can have peace. We should be able to expect to play as the game dictates, not by the whims of human nature.

Of course, this is not by any means saying this is OFTEN. I've only seen a few cases of these, the most severe being the one I outlined before. I rarely see this issue, but unlike other forms of spammable harassment, this one escalates far up the annoyance meter.

In short, I will contact a GM in two scenarios:

1. The trade interruption causes a DEFINITIVE disruption of gameplay, noticeable via the loss of progression or harmful impact. This extends to causing a death of another player, or causing a player's duty to end or render the player unable to act according to their wishes amongst others.
2. The trade interruption persists beyond acceptable human patience levels. This involves tracking/following a player with the intent of repeatedly trading to disrupt their current activity for a certain time amongst other forms of harassment.

I would say the above two scenarios are fair reasons to contact a GM for disruptful harassment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

The same could be said for resetting hunts. Look what happened.

---

Resetting hunts was a bigger issue, the way I see it. It affected all the players involved, and was much harder to deal with.

For trade-interrupts, /busy and /blist completely negate the issue. Of course, you can't always do this preemptively (and then the damage is likely already done), but you at least have definite ways to deal with it in-game.

I have no issue with anything else you wrote.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I agree, but that doesn't mean it's fair. My point is: why even elevate this issue to such a degree, when you can manage it yourself? Is that not preferable? Should players be so quick to cry for GMs?

I'll reiterate that extended harassment may require GM intercession.

---

Because some people cannot or would rather not manage it themselves. If somebody thinks that their issue is valid enough they should contact a GM, by all means, they should contact a GM. It is the GM's job to decide whether or not it warrants action, but a player should never feel like their problems aren't important enough to be considered. That's an easy road to self-blame and actual abuse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Markas

Eh, maybe not banned but GM jail (does xiv have a GM jail?) would be nice.

---

They do. Somebody I know got sent to it, and got to see a GM...they were in FFXII-ish Judge armor from what he said. It was like an inquisition when they started questioning him. Nobody expects the Eorzean Inquisition!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niamh_Rillemaugh

Because some people cannot or would rather not manage it themselves.

---

I don't see how calling a GM is a better solution than blacklisting the player (unless you really think they deserve to be banned--maybe they do).
Granted, they may not be aware of the option. (Note: I'm talking specifically about trade-griefing).

Quote:

---

If somebody thinks that their issue is valid enough they should contact a GM, by all means, they should contact a GM. It is the GM's job to decide whether or not it warrants action, but a player should never feel like their problems aren't important enough to be considered. That's an easy road to self-blame and actual abuse.

---

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, I see your point, and it's valid. But, on the other hand, depending on GMs to solve your problems for you isn't necessarily healthy either. Not only that, it can be a terribly inefficient way of dealing with your current problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Argyle_Darkheart

I appreciate what you're saying, but, no, my main point has always been that people need to calm down and think before they consult a GM.

I do NOT trust GMs to mete out fair punishment. Whether they do or do not is beside the point, as far as I'm concerned; this issue just isn't big enough.

---

My thought process is as follows:

If this person is doing this to me, for no apparent reason whatsoever, he has probably done something similar to a variety of other players. He may feel he has gotten off scoot free because he's done this to perhaps HUNDREDS of people unknown to myself, and continues to do so because he hasn't gotten any slap on the wrist for his inappropriate behavior.

By bringing it the attention of the GMs, they can now sift through this player's history and see if this behaviorism has been replicated in other incidents, or perhaps add this to an already mounting portfolio of complaints against this individual. If I'm the only individual, then fine, at last this has now been noted. If I am one of many victims, that harassing player should give them a warning and if it continues, escalate beyond that.

Just because I can fix it for myself by putting on my /busy symbol doesn't mean I shouldn't take the necessary steps to potentially protect other innocent players from being griefed by this player (who may not know how to prevent this grief from happening).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Just because I can fix it for myself by putting on my /busy symbol doesn't mean I shouldn't take the necessary steps to potentially protect other innocent players from being griefed by this player (who may not know how to prevent this grief from happening).

---

That's fine; you've clearly thought about it. But some people just call GM to sort out their emotions and/or to attempt to harm the other player (whether or not they deserve it).