Ogre's Hate - Need advice

First, take your troll posts elsewhere, I need some solid advice, not snide comments.


Now that we've got that out of the way... For those that have tanked the ogre and won the fight, what are you using to pull and keep hate? I've tried provoke, taunt, war drum, warmonger, and disorient but nothing seems to work. I've even tried Cure III/Sac III but just can't keep his attention. Clearly I am doing something wrong, but what? Any advice for a frustrated GLA?

Are your healers and DDs healing and attacking while ur trying to hold hate initially?

Heya!

Hmm... I don't know much about taking aggro, but most of the times when I tank I make sure I land the first hit, then provoke the enemy. That way I have more enmity, and I keep spamming things like Raging Strike, Cures, Buffs and also I do some Accomplice, which is always needed.
Basically, Accomplice lets you take aggro from one person and transfer it to you. So you might cast it on an Archer or Healer and be OK with it.

That's the max I can give you as an advice now. I hope you get that mofo down!
See ya!

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Originally Posted by Thanos

Are your healers and DDs healing and attacking while ur trying to hold hate initially?

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No, they have been giving me an occasional heal at the beginning though. I can generally hold hate until the ghosts drop the second time, right around then I lose hate and all hell breaks loose.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Ffirst, take your troll posts elsewhere, I need some solid advice, not snide comments.


Now that we've got that out of the way... For those that have tanked the ogre and won the fight, what are you using to pull and keep hate? I've tried provoke, taunt, war drum, warmonger, and disorient but nothing seems to work. I've even tried Cure III/Sac III but just can't keep his attention. Clearly I am doing something wrong, but what? Any advice for a frustrated GLA?

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You have to do the first phase yourself pretty much.

Don't let mages or anyone cure you until the second phase (after the ghosts have teleported) to ensure you have generated enough enmity from the ogre. Cure yourself for this first phase.

Tell your mages and DD to stop attacking if they get a yellow hate meter too. And maybe get archers to use quellings trike and mages to use chameleon. Is soughspeak good for mages? I don't know, I'm not a mage. But definitely mages need anti-enimity abilities like chameleon or soughspeak.

All those hate-generating moves you mentioned are enough to hold hate. It's just a case of making everyone else wait around occasionally. Slow and steady wins the race, or so they say.

So far the best hate holders are Cure III and sac III I believe, but what you need to make sure is that no one is attacking or healing for the first minute or so, only you heal yourself to get a hate head start. Also stress that your members use there -hate abilities and their hate transfering abilities to get more hate on you. (Lancer has colusion that transfers all hate from next attack to the target between the lancer and the lancers target) basically we have to cast it on the mob and then get behind the tank and use a weapon skill. I think Archer has a similar skill to transfer hate, also there are many traits that lower hate generation as well.

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Heya!

Hmm... I don't know much about taking aggro, but most of the times when I tank I make sure I land the first hit, then provoke the enemy. That way I have more enmity, and I keep spamming things like Raging Strike, Cures, Buffs and also I do some Accomplice, which is always needed.
Basically, Accomplice lets you take aggro from one person and transfer it to you. So you might cast it on an Archer or Healer and be OK with it.

That's the max I can give you as an advice now. I hope you get that mofo down!
See ya!

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do you use accomplice on just a random arc? I've never used it before so some specifics would help.

Also... it's a good idea to get several mages to take turns healing so they dont draw too much hate individually, but I guess most people do this already.

Never needed to use accomplice and our mages do heal the tank during the first phase as well. Archers go all out, if I'm rolling as Archer I'm always between green and yellow threat.

Doing damage and healing HP are the biggest hate factors atm. As a tank use all of you attacks, save tp to participate in BRs, and use only cure/sacrifice IIIs. If you're having MP management issues bring some ethers and have stygian spikes up.

Accomplice anyone that draws the most hate.. mainly the healers

If your DDs has accomplice have them consistantly accomplice the healers and u accomplice them.. since the DDs are closer to you


That should work...

if your using glad use heavy stab and heavy slash, although they aren't ideal moves anymore they still generate enmity.

also, use cover allot.
after provoke use punishing barbs if you have it (preferably when your shield is down)

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

do you use accomplice on just a random arc? I've never used it before so some specifics would help.

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I would use it to a player who is known to do a sh*tton of enmity. Maybe after 2 or 3 times you've done the dungeon you have seen where the monster was directing at.
Try to cast it to the class who the monster was redirecting at. Maybe if you chat or talk in a VoIP software, make you let know if their Aggro-bar becomes flashy-red. In that case, as like players here say, they should stop attacking or doing heals and let you gain some enmity.

As long as your mages use cure II and sac II and you keep up the vokes and other enmity actions. You should be fine. Intimidation helps. If your mages are buffing up before healing that that could be an issue too.

At the start of the fight, everyone should sit back for about 20 seconds til you built up enmity.

Other than that, should be smooth sailing

I've yet to try it myself as I've only just got it but there is an trait for Marauder which increases hate of all actions by 10. I think it's gonna be pretty useful for tanks.

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Originally Posted by Thanos

Accomplice anyone that draws the most hate.. mainly the healers

If your DDs has accomplice have them consistantly accomplice the healers and u accomplice them.. since the DDs are closer to you


That should work...

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Has anyone ever tested this? Accomplice chaining enmity would be a fantastic way to glue the Slave to your Tank. Though it sounds TOO good to be true, so I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't work.

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Originally Posted by Sigtyr

Has anyone ever tested this? Accomplice chaining enmity would be a fantastic way to glue the Slave to your Tank. Though it sounds TOO good to be true, so I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't work.

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My archers accomplice me all the time.. then I see my tank accomplice me (I think)... too focused on keeping tank alive to really pay attention.. i just know theres a lot of accomplice going on lol

Hello,

I've tanked the Ogre 8-10 times now with no problem holding hate (and I don't have any other classes ranked past 30). The only trouble can be at the beginning of the battle - but that's on the rest of the party to not do too much.

I cycle through Provoke, Taunt, War Drum, Warmonger, and have access to Cure/Sacrifice II. Of course, Heavy Slash/Stab whenever they are available. Siphon MP also will get you some MP back. I think the important thing is making sure you're using these abilities whenever possible (and spells when appropriate). I've recently added Second Wind to my action bar in order to boost HP immediately after a spike damage TP attack from him (but not sure how much enmity this is getting me). I also always have Obsess II active (no idea if this garners enmity).

When you do this, or some variation of this, do you not keep hate?

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Originally Posted by Sigtyr

Has anyone ever tested this? Accomplice chaining enmity would be a fantastic way to glue the Slave to your Tank. Though it sounds TOO good to be true, so I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't work.

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Yes this is a very good tactic as well. We don't ever require using accomplice but if you're having trouble holding hate this can make a very big difference. Have your strongest Melee DD go overboard and accomplice them when they have red hate (don't let them actually pull aggro, though.)

Also as others have mentioned, No damage for first 30 sec - 1 min, only Cure/Sac III in emergencies, mages call out when they have red enmity and stop for a bit (nerve drops help really well here too.) All it takes is good party coordination, and a conserving MP for when it's really needed.

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Originally Posted by Thanos

Accomplice anyone that draws the most hate.. mainly the healers

If your DDs has accomplice have them consistantly accomplice the healers and u accomplice them.. since the DDs are closer to you


That should work...

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Ooh, good call! I think might just do the trick.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

Hello,

I've tanked the Ogre 8-10 times now with no problem holding hate (and I don't have any other classes ranked past 30). The only trouble can be at the beginning of the battle - but that's on the rest of the party to not do too much.

I cycle through Provoke, Taunt, War Drum, Warmonger, and have access to Cure/Sacrifice II. Of course, Heavy Slash/Stab whenever they are available. Siphon MP also will get you some MP back. I think the important thing is making sure you're using these abilities whenever possible (and spells when appropriate). I've recently added Second Wind to my action bar in order to boost HP immediately after a spike damage TP attack from him (but not sure how much enmity this is getting me). I also always have Obsess II active (no idea if this garners enmity).

When you do this, or some variation of this, do you not keep hate?

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That's pretty much what i'm doing, but after the ghosts drop the 2nd time, it's pretty much inevitable that someone pulls hate from me.

Hey Molly, First, I have been using phalanx and onion cut more since patch to draw more hate. Cure 3 is the biggest hate draw and it's based on a 1:1 ratio. Have healers use sacrifice as much as possible as it only creates hate on it's initial heal and not the total accumulation of the regen. You should start the fight solo. Disorient>>attack>>>>taunt>>>attack>>>heavy slash>>>>cure self is about how you should start this fight. Provoke doesn't work the same anymore but taunt is still as effective as ever. Once you mages and arc come in at the ghost teleportation, have them call out who has hate and use accomplice. You should steadily be causing damage with onion cut, phalanx, heavy slash, etc.... Because it's on a 1:1 ratio also, which means if a Mage healed you for 100 hp, you need to hit the target for 101 to keep hate. So mages spread the cures around by taking turns using small cures and sacrifice 3 up at all times, this is individual hate and won't over take yours. Your arc will have to learn to control themselves, they cannot go all out, if someone besides the tank has hate they should stop attacking entirely. You should use provoke followed by an attack or cure to optimize it's effectiveness now, don't forget to use warmonger followed by taunt in a pinch. Ultimately, after 1.18, you need to cause damage and use hate abilities effectively to hold hate.

The key to the new hate system is the less your healers have to heal means more hate to you, so skills that reduces damages or outright evades damage will be useful. Disorient, Foresight, Featherfoot, Emulate, Decoy, Diversion, yada yada and of course heals are massive hate now, so Heal spells and second wind. Also, those stabs gives some hate as well.

Hmm, maybe locking down the hate at the start is the issue then. Or, at this point, it could be particular players over-DPSing or over-healing. It should go without saying, but maybe you should say it (lol), that if DPS get close to pulling hate, they should back off. Mages should only be using tier II cure/sac and should be aware of their hate as well.

In my mind, this is why enmity still needs tweaking (though it's not the disaster some people have said). Every suggestion in this thread is about acquiring an ability from a class other than gladiator. It's frustrating, I admit.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

Every suggestion in this thread is about acquiring an ability from a class other than gladiator. It's frustrating, I admit.

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It is pretty annoying...
I had to spend a week raising and gathering MRD guildmarks to get Intimidation just to use that one trait on my Gladiator.
That trait should have been in the Gladiator's guild to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

That's pretty much what i'm doing, but after the ghosts drop the 2nd time, it's pretty much inevitable that someone pulls hate from me.

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Tell them to watch their hate meter. If it turns yellow or red, then they're doing it wrong. Use chameleon, stop everything, and wait. Or you accomplice them.

As far as accomplice usage this is where good communication comes in. when we run the darkhold we will indicated to the tank if our hate pip is yellow or higher. We do this for two reasons

one to let it be known that we will be slowing down a bit in our damage/cures
two so the tank knows who is available for the most effective use of the skill.

Very interesting ideas, and I'm not even a tank!

The accomplice train sounds kinda fun.


edit: lol sorry. But honestly, it seems like the problem is in the first stages of the fight. So, I think the problem may lay with someone other then yourself. Whoever is pulling the hate in the first stage of the fight is getting the warnings when their hate bar turns from green to yellow and then to red. They should have stopped what they were doing by then and not let it get to flashing red. I could see if it was in an emergency and they just flat out have to spam high tier cures, but that is not the case at the start of the fight. I have gotten into the habit of glancing at that hate bar pretty much after every action I do. It lets you know if you can keep going or if you should slow down, on top of giving a you a general idea how much hate each of your actions acquire.

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Originally Posted by Val_Rhys

Every suggestion in this thread is about acquiring an ability from a class other than gladiator. It's frustrating, I admit.

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that's not an issue for me, all of my battle classes except for pug and arc are 45+

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

that's not an issue for me, all of my battle classes except for pug and arc are 45+

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Then the problem is all or some of:

You don't have the right skills equipped.

You do have the right skills equipped but you're not using them in the most effective manner.

Your party members don't have the right skills equipped, or are not using them correctly.

You don't use enough hate-generating abilities to keep hate.

You don't do enough damage to keep hate.

You take too much damage so the mages have to cure you more and generate hate for themselves.

The mages are curing you too much and generating too much hate instead of taking it easy.

Your other party members aren't watching the hate meter.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

Ooh, good call! I think might just do the trick.

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Send me gil for good ideas

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Then the problem is all or some of:

You don't have the right skills equipped.

You do have the right skills equipped but you're not using them in the most effective manner.

Your party members don't have the right skills equipped, or are not using them correctly.

You don't use enough hate-generating abilities to keep hate.

You don't do enough damage to keep hate.

You take too much damage so the mages have to cure you more and generate hate for themselves.

The mages are curing you too much and generating too much hate instead of taking it easy.

Your other party members aren't watching the hate meter.

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Pretty much this.

I've got my full 64/64 AP used for my tanking setup and I can assure you, during a boss fight, I use ALL of those abilities.
Most important among them, Heavy Stab/Heavy Slash(not just for enmity, but for TP gain), all Shield Skills, Sentinel, Temepred Will, Featherfoot, Foresight, Emulate, Second Wind(thats probably one of the best to have right now), Warmonger etc etc

Now whats important for you to figure out is, how to use all those skills in an efficient way(skill rotation).
I've got my basic set of skills in a set rotation that I always go through, everything in between is just based on what's rdy and what kind of dmg I can expect to come.

Other then that, make sure you're mages got things like Soughspeak, Chameleon, Out of Sight etc available and if they don't tell them to back off and don't overheal.

Having cross-class skills is more important than ever right now.

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Originally Posted by AlphaJudge

Provoke doesn't work the same anymore but taunt is still as effective as ever

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It may be the order you are using them in but someone (Id credit but I forgot his name) has already gotten threat values for a few abilities.

Provoke 660
Taunt 450
Disorient 375-400
Wardrum <200
Sacrifices Heal Over Time = 0
Accomplice Steals 51-53% threat of who you use it on.

First off is basically to remove Wardrum... its waste of 5 AP now. Also some abilities such as Second Wind 2 are very good for threat (large heal, no MP cost).

General tank engage rotation is something like this:

Sentinel -> Run in/ Heavy Slash -> Warmonger -> Provoke -> Run to Position WHILE casting Decoy to stop 1000 ranged hit from either Ogre or Bartaal -> Disorent -> Taunt -> Tempered Will (causes a lot of threat now for some reason) -> repeat these abilities as timers come up.

Toss in Second Wind, Melee attacks, etc as available. Accomplice your main healer the first time he reaches yellow. Featherfoot is wonderful now to reduce mages threat (Evade an attack is a lot of healing threat prevented). Having all meele use Accomplice on healers helps a lot too since they cannot generate threat close to a good tank now, only really healers can.

Phalanx sorta sucks on the bosses since Ogre meeles like once every 30 seconds and just TP spams, and on Bartaal you are TP starved while its shield is up (well and Phalanx would do 0 anyways).

Ok, so the other night my LS beat the Ogre for the first time as an LS. The things that made a difference for our tank. Hate management however is NOT a tank-only thing. On top of the standards like using quelling strike, everyone, and I do mean everyone, has to play their part in hate management:

Tank initiates the instance into the dungeon; like leves this means spawned monsters auto-agro him.
Stygian spikes is put up before spawning Ogre; this means tank can self-cure more, generating more hate.
Tank uses Featherfoot and other EVA skills; by avoiding damage v. ogre, mages generate less hate, tanks MP goes further
Tank begins fight immediately in front of Ogre's spawn point; this mitigates the initial AoE, avoiding cure enmity all around
Tank goes for about 30 seconds (or more), relying on self cures.
While Ogre HP > 50%, tank self cures exclusively unless MP runs out, or drops below ~1200 HP, mages stick to Tier 1 spells
While Ogre HP < 50%, Con/Thm use only Cure 1/2 & Sac 1/2 (Cure 3 only if a wipe looks eminent)
DD stun/block Double Smash as much as possible; this is the move that forces mages to cast Cure/Sac 3

Hope this helps!

. . . Am I seriously the only person using Barrage for tanking? If so, I'd like to know why.