Current Need/Greed system is broken. So, this just happened to me in Stone Vigil. I'm a monk, and I say I'm leveling and need gear. There's a bard with me in i80 and i90 gear and he needs against me on each and every drop that I really could have used. What the hell does he need i42ish gear for?
*inb4glamour or desynth*
That is the pure definition of greed. What I would have liked to see is his Need option disabled because his current item level gear is higher than my level. And if he Needed on gear that I actually needed just to desynth, well... that's a complete WASTE! People who are leveling should ALWAYS come first.
There needs to be a Priority Need system
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07-31-2014, 02:22 PMJustPlainLucasThere needs to be a Priority Need system
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07-31-2014, 02:58 PMSurian
Well, what's the diffirence between him needing it for desynthing, glamour, gearing up an alt or even seals opposed to you needing it for gearing up?
You both are putting in the same amount of contribution (or should be), so the rights to the loot are equal among all members.
Dont get me wrong, i'm far from saying it's nice of him to just take gear through the need option to desynth/sell/glamour, especially when you yourself can use it for leveling up. A nice and considderate person might opt to passing on the gear since he/she feels it would benefit you more, but regardless of the reason that he "needs" this for, he has just as much right to it as any of the other members running the dungeon.
The current system in place already largely prevents this abuse by only letting you roll need on gear your current class or role can use. If that doesnt narrow down the amount of abuse that originates from this already, then i dont know. It's not like you couldnt have rolled Need on it as well and let the Random Number gods decide who wins. -
07-31-2014, 03:20 PMOoshimaYou are the pure definition of greed.Quote:
Originally Posted by JustPlainLucas
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07-31-2014, 03:43 PMJustPlainLucas
I can't believe I actually have to explain this... Someone gearing up should always have priority over someone who wants something to glamour or desynth because they need to improve their character. (and if they have an alt, they should be running the dungeon for the gear they want with that alt). That should be completely obvious. That's like two people in the desert, but one person already has a bottle of water while the other one doesn't. They're both in the desert, yet the person who has the bottle of water finds more water, but takes it from the person who has none. And yes, I DID roll Need, as I stated in my original post.
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07-31-2014, 03:45 PMJustPlainLucasAnd that's the definition of a worthless reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ooshima
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07-31-2014, 03:52 PMSurianWhy?Quote:
Originally Posted by JustPlainLucas
Because it's the nice thing to do?
Why would a rare piece of armor/gear that is not available elsewhere at all with a unique model suddenly have to be locked out to me, when the person who wants it for leveling up (and will toss/convert it afterwards) could just as well buy a similar piece with perhaps even better stats for 2000 gil on the marketboards or make it himself for free.
In your analogy, why would the person with a water bottle who is looking for water have to bring it to the person who doesnt have a water bottle, when that person is standing next to a mile long line of vending machines (marketboards), a fountain, a pile of empty bottles and all the means to grab and fill a bottle (crafting) by himself if he really wants to. -
07-31-2014, 06:44 PMMoqiMaybe he was leveling... desynthesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by JustPlainLucas
You both did the dungeon, you both get to roll. It's a fair system. -
07-31-2014, 07:10 PMUrielparadox
desynthing is improving ones character, they are leveling their craft, that requires completed armor to level, so yes actually it is improving their character. as others have said you can get better gear off the mb then you can get from dungeons, so again glamour trumps first timer here. Repeat dungeon farming for glamour because that s the only place to get the gear vs first time whom can buy better stats off mb or with GC seals. When doing the daily roulette your going to go on the job, that gives you the bonus you want, xp or myth in other words. So they can't always go on their alt to get the gear.
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08-01-2014, 03:30 AMJustPlainLucasBut it wouldn't be locked out to you. You could still greed. If I wanted it for the same glamouring/desynthing purposes, I would greed it myself or just pass it. But low level gear is DESIGNED for people leveling to gear up on. That's is main purpose, before glamouring and desynthing were even introduced, and far more useful for the person leveling on. Glamouring is non-functional and desynthing dungeon drops is an ineffective way to skill up, at least until 70 where you pretty much have to farm level 50 dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Surian
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08-01-2014, 03:33 AMJustPlainLucasNot nearly to the same degree as someone leveling a job, who can make far greater use of that piece of equipment. And as I said in my above reply, it's rather inefficient to level off dungeon drops and if you're a crafter, you should be making your own gear to desynth anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Urielparadox
Look, if there's no way to protect the interests of people who are actually leveling, then get rid of the greed system entirely, because tanks who have healers should be able to need healer drops and vice versa. Because, everyone "needs" everything, right? -
08-01-2014, 03:34 AMYoninxi
Your gearing needs are no more important than his/her glamour/seals/retainer gear. I'm sure when you return these dungeons you will feel the same way.
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08-01-2014, 03:44 AMJustPlainLucasHow about this? How about we just get rid of the Greed option, and then everyone can just Need anyway? Why should a Paladin be able to claim a shield you can use when you're on your WHM, but you want that shield to glamour it for your own Paladin? It's because of priorities. My system is just another degree of that. And I've been to lower level dungeons as a 50 and honestly don't feel the same way at all. Glamouring is superfluous, and desynthing off dungeon drops is inefficient. I really couldn't see myself taking away a piece of gear that someone can actually use just so I can glamour or destroy it. Like I said in the original post, that's the very definition of greed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoninxi
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08-01-2014, 03:47 AMAethelinda
While I understand you completely 100%. Sadly we got a lot of things going for every gear in the game , from glamour to turn it in for rewards. I also want stuff that I use for dysenthing or the so needed seals for getting adventure coin. I do use my fair judgement , if it is a low level , I normally pass everything. However on the high levels like expert roulette I tend to need unless I notice someone needs it more than me or someone asks me. Plus I tend to greed if I don't need it for gears.
In this game there are too many people with too many thing to do in game to control the loot system even more. The only think I could suggest to help with that is to get a day to farm the dungeon with a few of your friends or FC mates or even ask if is possible to pass on "x" loot. But on DF you are exposed to everything from greediness to people actually using the things for other things which is still fair because it is still self improvement. If they are playing that job, the related loot is a priority for the current job being played. therefore it is better to play the job you want the loot for and need.
If they fix it to what you are suggesting, and place don't take it as I'm arguing against you this just an observation, then someone who is even a lower ilevel than you and probably will never even use the gear, will have a chance too. Imagine people trying to get loot for their jobs and others that are not even close enough to your ilevel, meaning lower than you and that will never play the job, getting the loot. Would be unfair.
The universal polite thing to do is ask first or only "greed" if you really don't need it and are just using it for something else rather than gearing up. But it happens. -
08-01-2014, 03:50 AMYoninxi
Its there because the job can use it? I farmed CT1 3 weeks straiggt for divine robe as healer. Imagine doing that if everyone in the party could roll on the item youre after.
I'm not going to pass on something just because someone else can use it that I will 9.975/10 never see again. Seals/glamour are important to me, someone else's gearing needs don't concern me unless I know the person. -
08-01-2014, 03:55 AMJustPlainLucasNo. Based on your logic, there is no level of importance. So, you shouldn't be able to just claim a sword as you're running as a tank, when I need that sword to take it apart for a couple tenths of point in desynthing skill. See where I'm getting at? If there's no level of importance here, then the Greed option needs to be abolished plain and simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoninxi
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08-01-2014, 03:59 AMYoninxi
If I'm doing content as Healer/Tank or DPs, I expect gear for those roles. If I'm running a leveling dungeon for a glamour like Battlemage I'm gonna go BLM or SMN. I put in the same work as the other mage so why should they get it just because they need it to 'level' in?
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08-01-2014, 04:01 AMNorthernLadMSP
This entitled thread again? You're not more deserving of the gear than the person who was actually playing that job. The reason it's fair is because the bard was rolling on bard gear, where as you were not playing as bard. You want bard gear, play bard.
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08-01-2014, 07:26 AMRiceisNice
The problem with saying "They can need it for their desyn" is, when do you draw the line? The only reason people can't need on every single thing to desyn is because of class restrictions, and I'm sure as hell that the developers didn't have the foresight to see this being a problem when they incorporated desynthesis in the first place (along side other updates in 2.3 such as the hunt.) I've seen worse reasons for people needing on equipment that isn't an upgrade, even as little as GC seals (and we're talking level 20-30 dungeons here, its worth less than a FATE or supply).
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08-01-2014, 11:45 AMJustPlainLucasLearn how to read. Did I say I wanted BRD gear? I did not. He didn't roll on BRD gear. He rolled on DoW gear, which was around i42. He was already i80/i90. Where the hell in my original post did you think I was trying to roll for bard gear? :? Are you so pissed off about topics like this that you can't take one second to understand what the post is about?Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP
As for being entitled, this has nothing to do with being entitled. It's not just me who thinks this way. When I go into a low level dungeons as a level 50, and someone says they need gear, I'm sure as hell not going to be an ass and need against them, even if I want a damn stupid piece of gear to glamour or desynth. There is no system in place to keep jerks like that from stealing gear people need to level on. Believe it or not, LEVELING is the most important aspect in this game! People who are leveling need to be given priority for gear they actually... need. -
08-01-2014, 11:52 AMMyrhn
That is just how the system in this game works. Embrace it with all you got and stop been a baby because u lose a need roll.
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08-01-2014, 02:02 PMNorthernLadMSPI read your post, thanks. You have a poor attitude in both your original post and your most recent response. It's evident by the fact you've created a whole thread (one of many plaguing the forum over the last few weeks) complaining because some random stranger won an item over you.Quote:
Originally Posted by JustPlainLucas
Everything you have stated is dripping in entitlement mentality. Regardless of whether it was BARD gear or DISCIPLINE OF WAR gear, you both ran the dungeon. You both put in effort to complete the dungeon. You both had every right to need or greed on it. If you're so concerned about getting every single piece of gear your heart desires, go with friends or FC members that will pass for you.
When I run an instance and want a specific piece of gear, I may politely ask if anyone else needs it. They may pass for me. They may not. I may have to run said instance 20 times to get the item I want, but I also don't come on the forum and create a complaint thread about it. -
08-01-2014, 03:20 PMIllrayth
I agree that this is a problem. People do "need" for greed.
people often forget the spirit of what the buttons are originally meant for.
Need is for a gear upgrade for whatever you're currently running the dungeon as.
Greed is not needing it, but wanting it for money/other purposes.
Even for Vanity gear i will only greed things, especially if someone else could actually use it as an upgrade.
I have no respect for anyone who Needs on gear that could be an upgrade for someone else when it is not an upgrade for yourself. -
08-01-2014, 03:44 PMOoshimaLOL, can't he roll a DoW gear because he does have a DoW class that us under 50 that could actually use it to gear up too? Hey he's improving his character!Quote:
Originally Posted by JustPlainLucas
I'm sorry, but majority of the people believes that everyone have equal rights to roll need /greedon an item if allowed, because everyone put in the same effort.
And to put it in an ugly matter, I could have said that he deserved more - because he played low level roulette which he have probably absolutely no reason for (because he could have killed an A Rank mark for a comparable tomes reward). And he's there in this sub-50 dungeon to help YOU who is sub-50 to level up.
And here you are complaining about him having the rights to roll on an item which he should have the same opportunity to. He could have used it for another DoW job that is sub-50. He could have used it for every other reason. He spent the same amount of time as you did in this dungeon and paid the same subscription.
Put it to another perspective - (example) I am the Manager of 2 Executives of the same corporate rank and title, both drawing the same pay. Exec A uses this money to support a family of 6 and every dollar seems to count for him, while Exec B is a single man and spends it on night clubs and womanizing. Do I care what do they do with their pay? Or do I prioritize Exec A if there is a chance of promotion or pay increment? Nope, I don't. Not any decent Manager - because both of them are doing the same job (assuming same performance level).
Stop being whiny.
I respect your different view on this, and I don't particularly need your respect, but I thank you for your own view. Because I do not need to run another 20-30 rounds of the new expert dungeons to see the piece of gear I want to drop (and all the bloody cooking sherries!) :D Love you deep deep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illrayth