Please take a look at LOTRO for the proper way to design end game dungeons

Dungeons as of now have zero purpose end game. In fact, anything other than hunts has zero end game purpose. Good luck trying to get Ramuh Ex cleared. Why bother? The hunts provide better rewards for a fraction of the skill required.

They need to take a look at LOTRO for proper ways to design end game dungeons.

Basically, every end game dungeon in LOTRO had 2 difficulties. The higher end difficulty also had an optional challenge on every hard run, which when beat, yielded very good loot, just a little under raid gear. Difficulty was on par with end game raids if you chose to do challenge mode.

I think what this game needs is to have a similar system. Savage mode for all dungeons with additional optional objectives. The problem is that it's still easier to do hunts and get better gear, which is why hunts were a mistake. Hopefully in the future they can overhaul the gear progression to be more gradual.

I kinda like the way it is now. All jobs require both purchasable and second coil gear for best in slot. You can also upgrade your purchased gear through coil hunts or syrcus tower. Lots of options to choose from.

The thing most people don't get is that the current gear is a gradual progression. All the content in the game requires more skill than gear. There are people with full i110 soldiery gear that still can't beat things like titan extreme with max echo...

Gear means nothing without skill and there are many many ways to acquire better gear both for hardcore and casual players. I, like many others, prefer winning by playing well rather than steamrolling everything with over powered gear.

This is false on so many levels. Gear in this game is vertical, which means there is a best set of gear, period. FFXI had multiple sets of gears for different fights. There is only so far "skill" can get you in the game. There is a ceiling on most end game fights that requires a certain ilvl to pass, you can have the best rotation in the world, it won't matter if your DPS isn't up to speed.

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Originally Posted by Rattleh3ad

There is a ceiling on most end game fights that requires a certain ilvl to pass, you can have the best rotation in the world, it won't matter if your DPS isn't up to speed.

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It's called a minimum ilvl and it's required for all post-50 content.
So actually yes, if you have the best rotation in the world (plus can dodge etc.) and meet the requirements to enter the fight you will win.

2nd coil is all about skills more than gear.

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Originally Posted by Rattleh3ad

This is false on so many levels. Gear in this game is vertical, which means there is a best set of gear, period. FFXI had multiple sets of gears for different fights. There is only so far "skill" can get you in the game. There is a ceiling on most end game fights that requires a certain ilvl to pass, you can have the best rotation in the world, it won't matter if your DPS isn't up to speed.

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All content can be completed with the minimum required ilvl for the instance. Gear only helps cover people's flaws. There's a reason ppl in i100+ gear still can't beat things like titan extreme even with max echo.

I'm unconvinced that helicanarssis in haukke Manor hard is beatable with minimum ilvl tbh.

Slightly back on topic...

As an ex-LoTRO player I would second the dungeon suggestion, mainly the part about the different tiers of difficulty. Regular mode is what we have now for HM. Then actual "Hard Mode" would include a challenge, with specific criteria met, tougher trash and bosses. If you miss an objective in the Challenge you loose out on the extra special chest at the end boss. Still get actual HM loot but not that extra chest. Regular could keep the crafting mat parade that is currently in place, HM would have i85-i90 and the challenge chest would have a 2% drop reate for oil/sands/UAT and 65% rate for i95 gear (weapon, accessory, armor) and a 33% rate for an i100 piece.

I think that wold be fun. Can work in tome rewards and what not.

But I think this would be something neat to see.

/discuss...flaws - benefits -etc

Syn

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Originally Posted by Rattleh3ad

This is false on so many levels. Gear in this game is vertical, which means there is a best set of gear, period. FFXI had multiple sets of gears for different fights. There is only so far "skill" can get you in the game. There is a ceiling on most end game fights that requires a certain ilvl to pass, you can have the best rotation in the world, it won't matter if your DPS isn't up to speed.

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The only difficulty cap in end game content is braindead people. Skill or let's say ability to think is more important than gear.

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Originally Posted by Sassi666

I'm unconvinced that helicanarssis in haukke Manor hard is beatable with minimum ilvl tbh.

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If all 4 members know what they do then it can. If 1 member use same 1-2 skills whole fight then no

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Originally Posted by Sassi666

I'm unconvinced that helicanarssis in haukke Manor hard is beatable with minimum ilvl tbh.

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SCH/SMN Virus
SCH Sacred Soil
Caster E4E (ahead of time so it has time to proc)
Tank LB or DD LB
PLD Hallowed Ground + Cover your healer so they can live and rez squishy DPS
BLM can pop Manaward
MNK can use Fists of Earth for 10% damage reduction
DRG... ahh Keen Flurry? Okay he's gonna die.
BRD can play Foe's to boost damage and save all CDs for last add
War can use Storm's Path

I've seen people derp hard on this fight in ilvl90 so I don't doubt that it's very difficult at minimum ilvl, but it's definitely doable. It just requires above average skill. It's a separate conversation whether that is a good thing or not.

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Originally Posted by Rattleh3ad

This is false on so many levels. Gear in this game is vertical, which means there is a best set of gear, period. FFXI had multiple sets of gears for different fights. There is only so far "skill" can get you in the game. There is a ceiling on most end game fights that requires a certain ilvl to pass, you can have the best rotation in the world, it won't matter if your DPS isn't up to speed.

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Tell that to the people in i110 gear that can't beat T5.

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Originally Posted by Yonko

Tell that to the people in i110 gear that can't beat T5.

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Edit: Actually, I stated something wrong previously. But still the inability to beat t5 in high end gear really has nothing to do with the quoted statement. A better example would be the people hitting t8 enrage with lesser gear.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

snip for character limit.

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Damage negation is only one part. If the tank uses Lb good luck getting Amandine down. The main thing is the dps check on each add and if you don't finish the fight in time it's a wipe as she sucks in a player and one hits the party. At ilvl 48 this would be next to impossible. My friend and I were ilvl 70 with 70 weapons the first time we did this and the tank wanted to kick us as he said we wouldn't have enough dps. We killed her first go :) but reading strategy before I went in many people said you just couldn't get the dps at the mo ilvl. Anyway sorry for derailing the thread.

Yes lets mimic more Free - play games

This is almost the same as people who want to mimic 1.0

... That game did so well.

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Originally Posted by Sassi666

I'm unconvinced that helicanarssis in haukke Manor hard is beatable with minimum ilvl tbh.

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You would wonder how much damage a low equipped character can do.
Most of time the dps you find in DF, deal like 70% of their real potency.

Also LB on last add, nullifies any DPS race

I can get on board with a change. As it stands dungeons serve no purpose. They are pretty much designed for a fresh 50, but have crap for rewards (gl getting loot when the loot tables are so massive). If there wasn't a daily for them I would literally never run any of these dungeons after day 1 because they serve no purpose. They are laughably easy (their ilvl requirements are so insanely low), their rewards are purely for vanity (and as I said on a massive loot table, I STILL haven't seen some things drop from dozens if not over 100+ runs during the myth farming days).

Regardless of what people thinks need to be done, dungeons need an over haul as they are just a waste of space and time as it stands.

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Originally Posted by Sassi666

I'm unconvinced that helicanarssis in haukke Manor hard is beatable with minimum ilvl tbh.

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I once did HMHM with two fresh 50 DDs, a SMN and DRG. Halicarnassis took a few tries, but we managed to beat her just fine. Mind you, one wipe had the PLD leave (which was good. Despite their Animus status, they did NOT grab adds or assist in DPS on adds. Replacement PLD was much better and allowed me to easily Cleric Dance).

Sure, that's two ilvl90+ players and two ilvl49-52 players, but still. We beat her with maybe 10 seconds left before her enrage :)
Also, our first PLD was trying to force a speed run (pulling ALL the mobs), which took longer than killing mobs one group at a time. A lot of wipes were caused by that Animus PLD, now that I think about it.

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Originally Posted by Kaonis

I can get on board with a change. As it stands dungeons serve no purpose. They are pretty much designed for a fresh 50, but have crap for rewards (gl getting loot when the loot tables are so massive). If there wasn't a daily for them I would literally never run any of these dungeons after day 1 because they serve no purpose. They are laughably easy (their ilvl requirements are so insanely low), their rewards are purely for vanity (and as I said on a massive loot table, I STILL haven't seen some things drop from dozens if not over 100+ runs during the myth farming days).

Regardless of what people thinks need to be done, dungeons need an over haul as they are just a waste of space and time as it stands.

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Dungeons are there to prepare you for ex primals/coil. They are serving that purpose just fine. It's true that you can get tomes by hunting marks but unless your server is not filled with greedy people, it may not be the best option.