Intuitive Tanking.

Many current and good endgame tanks will tell you it isn't really all that fun. Also the idea that many fights can be solo tanked when SE is clearly designing the game for a 2-tank paradigm seems a bit wrong.


Although they probably won't change the game on account of a forum post, I'd still like to share my thoughts on what could be a more interesting or challenging way to tank.

My first point is that enmity is rather a simple thing to handle and achieve. It's not hard nor interesting (especially for paladins).

My second is that as your gear increases, endgame bosses become trivial in damage done to you.

My third is that since fights are being solo tanked, it reduces the desire for two tanks in a group, which is a bad thing for the tank population, as they are less needed and therefore more likely to roll something else.

So what if a mechanic were introduced to force you to be more intuitive about how you control damage done to yourself?

Here's what I suggest: Battle Fatigue. A mechanic that slowly causes you to take more and more damage the longer you tank something, and increases based on the rate of damage you take. Doesn't have to be a huge amount, but enough to cause you to control or think up of creative ways to reduce the amount of damage you are taking.

And then while you are not tanking, you recover from the battle fatigue, perhaps stacking even higher defense proportional to how long you have not been being railed on by the boss.

The longer a fight goes on the more damage you take and if you don't tank the boss for a while you recover to what you had before? That's pretty much what you wrote and want introduced?

It exists and its called Titan Extreme mode.

I just want to give my thoughts.

1. It's only easy if you are geared similarly to the dps/healers, if you are geared under it can be a nightmare to hold hate, or even just downright impossible. But regardless, I enjoy tanking, even if you are just stood there most of the time.

2. Then fight harder enemies. Of course something like Ifrit HM is going to be challenging when you are fresh level 50 with your AF armour, but once you gear up, it's going to be a cake walk. But how can you address this? You can either make harder content easier, requiring you to need lower gear, so all the fights are tuned to your AF armour. That then leaves no room for gear progress otherwise you would start curbstomping the enemy. The other thing would be to make the bosses harder, but that then restricts the access into endgame for the fresh level 50s. They would be expected to grind out higher levelled gear straight away, just so that they can even stand a chance. As it stands, as long as you do the content that your gear level was designed for, it should still pose a challenge.

3. Considering there is a lack of tanks to start with, why would that make tanks roll DPS? Tanks are generally the most sought after and quick looks through PF can show you that when they have all slots filled except the tanks. That should in theory make more people want to play tanks as the need is there, but it doesn't. You also have to take into account the vast majority of the players are DPS. If you can replace one of the less needed tanks, which is a hard slot to fill, with a DPS, which is an easy slot to fill, you are going to. In the short of it, tanks can easily get into content, but DPS struggle more. There is no logical reason why a tank would start rolling on DPS/healer and in the same case why a DPS wouldn't go as a tank.

As for battle fatigue, I honestly don't like the idea. It is essentially a forced tank swap, but applied to all content. Ok, so it might make some fights without a tank swap, actually require one, but what about the fights that do require one? Would you tank swap based on the fatigue, or the actual tank swap debuff? If you get forced to switch on the fatigue, then who's to say that won't mess up the tank swap debuff? If you get forced to switch, but the debuff timer hasn't worn out yet, you then get smacked by it, increasing the timer and needing to swap again for that, but the other tank hasn't recovered yet, that's a bit of a bind you are in. 2 tanks who really shouldn't be tanking, not a good idea.

So, what if you switch on the debuff? Well then, what's the point of the fatigue to begin with if it doesn't change the fight? Adding to that, if you do make it so that tanks can recover more than their initial state as it were, then it makes the fight even more trivial. Assuming you recover quicker than the main tank, so that you don't end in a position where both tanks get slowly worn down as the recovery isn't enough, that then leads to the position that the tanks will be taking less and less damage the more they swap, which brings us to your second point where you have already stated that things do too little damage in the first place, and what you suggest makes tanks take even less damage over the course of a fight.

Overall, there are several problems with your idea of a battle fatigue, mainly focused around tank swap mechanics already in the game, and that's without even giving specific examples, one big fight where I can imagine battle fatigue would be the worst is in the case of Titan Extreme. Adding Vulnerability up and then naturally increasing the damage you take just for being there isn't going to be fun, especially for the healers.

you've missed the mark on what I mean. I mean that taking damage will increase the damage you take, you got that right, but then there would also be an opposite effect, where the longer time you can spend not tanking will result in vulnerability down buffs, and possibly increased damage buffs.

So a string tanking pair would be far more rewarded for their efforts than a weaker pair of tanking, and so tanking (let's use T9) becomes less of a system where one tank takes the boss and the other handles all the adds, but rather a system where each tank must and should switch out based on their stacks of battle fatigue and how much they've recovered.

Also, we should stop talking about Titan extreme like it's current. Because it isn't.

The problem I have is that every single fight in the SCOB can be solo tanked.
The bosses in Syrcus require little to zero off-tanking at all.

It seems like they are trivializing the need for tanks in this game.

Tanks do take more damage as a battle goes longer. It's called running out of cooldowns, and mages running out of mana.

I did mention that. Tank 1 goes in, started taking more damage due to more attacks. Tank 2 isn't getting beat on, and so gains Vul down. When tank 2 gets a decent enough Vul down, swaps with Tank 1. Tank 1 then recovers while tank 2 is taking the beating and getting weaker.

With that system, the recovery from fatigue would have to be quicker than the increase in the fatigue, otherwise you end with a situation where both tanks will end up in a fatigued state, which is meant to cause a tank swap. So, assuming recovery is quicker than weakening, as tank 1 recovers, they will get into the vul down stage, you can then swap, tank 2 then gets vul down, swap. You will end up with a state of 2 tanks that will have a permanent vul down state, which means in the end, the tanks are taking less damage as a whole, which is something you didn't like in the first place as evidenced by your second point in the first post.

you also have to consider fight mechanics, when adds show up and you've just tank swapped, you then have a weakened tank going after adds and correct me if I'm wrong, but the adds in T9 do hit very hard, having a weakened tank when tanking hard hitting adds isn't desirable at all, however, there is no way to predict when this situation will come up, it might happen the first time, but not the next due to the random variations in the damage the tank takes, just due to random variances in damage, how quickly the dps can deplete the enemies HP, meaning you would get to the same point with less damage taken, which will screw up timings on the swap. I am assuming the weakened state is going to be something quite drastic, as just a small drop isn't going to force anybody to swap.

As for Titan Extreme, no it isn't current, but the system has to work on all encounters, and so past fights are still relevant, especially for ones that are just getting to them. You might not care for them anymore, but others do and speaking of it having to work with everything, what about 4 man dungeons, or 4 man trials? Are you going to make the solo tank tank them in a weakened state, or make it so that they never get that far to begin with which makes the whole thing pointless anyway.

Fair enough if you only wanted to add it to SCoB, but you never said that, so it's a safe assumption that you wanted it on everything, and in most cases, it won't work out, especially not the way you seem to be envisioning it. Tank 1 goes in, started taking more damage due to more attacks. Tank 2 isn't getting beat on, and so gains Vul down. When tank 2 gets a decent enough Vul down, swaps with Tank 1. Tank 1 then recovers while tank 2 is taking the beating and getting weaker.

With that system, the recovery from fatigue would have to be quicker than the increase in the fatigue, otherwise you end with a situation where both tanks will end up in a fatigued state, which is meant to cause a tank swap. So, assuming recovery is quicker than weakening, as tank 1 recovers, they will get into the vul down stage, you can then swap, tank 2 then gets vul down, swap. You will end up with a state of 2 tanks that will have a permanent vul down state, which means in the end, the tanks are taking less damage as a whole, which is something you didn't like in the first place as evidenced by your second point in the first post.

you also have to consider fight mechanics, when adds show up and you've just tank swapped, you then have a weakened tank going after adds and correct me if I'm wrong, but the adds in T9 do hit very hard, having a weakened tank when tanking hard hitting adds isn't desirable at all, however, there is no way to predict when this situation will come up, it might happen the first time, but not the next due to the random variations in the damage the tank takes, just due to random variances in damage, how quickly the dps can deplete the enemies HP, meaning you would get to the same point with less damage taken, which will screw up timings on the swap. I am assuming the weakened state is going to be something quite drastic, as just a small drop isn't going to force anybody to swap.

As for Titan Extreme, no it isn't current, but the system has to work on all encounters, and so past fights are still relevant, especially for ones that are just getting to them. You might not care for them anymore, but others do and speaking of it having to work with everything, what about 4 man dungeons, or 4 man trials? Are you going to make the solo tank tank them in a weakened state, or make it so that they never get that far to begin with which makes the whole thing pointless anyway.

Fair enough if you only wanted to add it to SCoB, but you never said that, so it's a safe assumption that you wanted it on everything, and in most cases, it won't work out, especially not the way you seem to be envisioning it.

So your idea is just a simple forced tank swap.
Pretty boring considering this is already one of the most boring mechanics in fights for tanks anyway.
Instead of "Oh I'm at three stacks provoke" It'll be "Oh I'm low fatigue, provoke"
Genius.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warrlordd

Also, we should stop talking about Titan extreme like it's current. Because it isn't.

---

Nobody said it was current. They just said your idea already exists there. What you're suggesting is putting a forced tank swap on everything, which significantly steepens the learning curve for new players.

I'm curious as to how you would tank swap in four man content, too.

Quote:

---

The problem I have is that every single fight in the SCOB can be solo tanked.
The bosses in Syrcus require little to zero off-tanking at all.

It seems like they are trivializing the need for tanks in this game.

---

Are we forgetting KB, where 4 of the alliance's 6 tanks stand around pressing buttons? How about T2? It's not like fights that can be done with single tanks (and parties that have two) are anything new.

With all due respect, if people didn't catch on that the tanking in this game wouldn't exactly be hugely dynamic...I really don't know what they were playing. The game beats you over the head with how tanks function, what they do, what they're capable of. From 1 to 50, a Paladin (I don't know about warriors just yet) gains only a few options. At 50, you have a staggering five options for damage. (Roh Combo, Circle of Scorn, Spirits Within) that can work in a normal rotation. I don't think the mechanics of bosses need anything. I just think the options for PLD are very minimal in terms of 'excitement'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

How about T2? It's not like fights that can be done with single tanks (and parties that have two) are anything new.

---

Lol, bringing up enrage method as if that's the basis of how the fight should be done.
If you did T2 the correct way then tank swaps were necessary.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warrlordd

My first point is that enmity is rather a simple thing to handle and achieve. It's not hard nor interesting (especially for paladins).

---

It sounds like you just have burnout from playing a tank. I'd really just take a good long rest from it if possible.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warrlordd

My second is that as your gear increases, endgame bosses become trivial in damage done to you.

---

That is to be expected. You will obviously do better in i100 gear than i55. That's the whole point of endgame gearing and players will be able to push themselves further. On that thought, there's a frontier for tank dps I think is viable, similar to white mage and cleric stance. May I suggest you try experimenting switching between shield and sword oath in those easy fights? I'd really like to see that catch on but my own PLD is still too low level to push it. As an alternative, I know I'm not the only one who spiritbinds in dungeons. You may consider exchanging some of your equipment for spiritbinds on the easier runs to maintain the difficulty level and earn some extra money/materia you need.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warrlordd

My third is that since fights are being solo tanked, it reduces the desire for two tanks in a group, which is a bad thing for the tank population, as they are less needed and therefore more likely to roll something else.

---

If anything, I think this is a sign there aren't enough tanks, so players are coming up with ways to use a single-tank to gather partyfinder groups faster. It doesn't help that for most 1-tank parties, everyone is massively overgeared for the content. Just consider it as an option only for elite tanks (not every tank can do it).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warrlordd

Here's what I suggest: Battle Fatigue. A mechanic that slowly causes you to take more and more damage the longer you tank something, and increases based on the rate of damage you take. Doesn't have to be a huge amount, but enough to cause you to control or think up of creative ways to reduce the amount of damage you are taking.

And then while you are not tanking, you recover from the battle fatigue, perhaps stacking even higher defense proportional to how long you have not been being railed on by the boss.

---

Several bosses in endgame already employ a similar dynamic. I would ask you to mind the learning curve and ask that you don't require it of fights short of Extreme and Coil. I know you're bored grinding dungeons for myth, but HM dungeons are designed for players below or at i90. I can see the new dungeons benefiting from it however (since they're approaching ADS level on the new HM). Stone Vigil HM and Hullbreaker have several examples of a boss that can't be tanked or escalating damage mechanics that SE is playing with. I wouldn't call them a resounding success, but they are in development. I don't know what more you can ask of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Lol, bringing up enrage method as if that's the basis of how the fight should be done.
If you did T2 the correct way then tank swaps were necessary.

---

Please re-read what I said and note that I mentioned fights that can be done with single tanks. That fight can be done with a single tank, so it's a perfectly good example. In any case, is there really a "correct" way to do it? Why fuss with the rot (especially in Derp Finder) when you can just heal through the damage?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anova

Stone Vigil HM and Hullbreaker have several examples of a boss that can't be tanked or escalating damage mechanics that SE is playing with. I wouldn't call them a resounding success, but they are in development. I don't know what more you can ask of them.

---

I actually really like to see them thinking outside of the "tank and spank" box for a lot of reasons. :3

Don't misunderstand me. I like the new dungeons too, but some of the mechanics don't feel quite polished yet. They are experimenting and I feel like there's a lot to look forward to in the next content patch.

why not have more bosses like hydra where you want 2 tanks in order to split the damage instead of tank swapping.

So.... people getting the "epic lootz" all of a sudden rely on that gear and solo tank to show off.

Plus, tanking as PLD isn't really that glamorous. I prefer WAR tanking myself. But, PLD is for those that enjoy "flexing" and showing off.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PurplePanther

...I just think the options for PLD are very minimal in terms of 'excitement'.

---

That's true.
WAR can be very dynamic with its different rotations. Apply dmg debuff or refresh reduced dmg debuff? Do I have enough hate? How long till the next hard hit so Inner Beast is ready by then?
There's alot more going on when playing WAR compared to PLD.
1, 2, 3, Spirits, hmm which cooldown should I use now? CoS, 1, 2, 3, ah let me just use a Shield Bash to make something different. 1, 2, 3, what should I have for dinner today?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zoeila

why not have more bosses like hydra where you want 2 tanks in order to split the damage instead of tank swapping.

---

I like that idea.
Well, I like every idea which makes the life as PLD more interesting.

I like how they designed tanking Leviathan.
It would be nice to see more bosses which require the tanks to take care of different targets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

So your idea is just a simple forced tank swap.
Pretty boring considering this is already one of the most boring mechanics in fights for tanks anyway.
Instead of "Oh I'm at three stacks provoke" It'll be "Oh I'm low fatigue, provoke"
Genius.

---

Pretty much this. From experience, forcing meta and mechanics are a bad thing.

There was another game I played where tank-swapping was the only way to get through boss fights, either due to insta-kill mechanics or DoTs.
Aside from that, dual-tanks was never really desired or necessary. The equipment in this game is ramping up in a way that's going to promote soloing/duoing soon.

Actually the duo-tanking is quite good idea when the dungeon is designed for duo tanking.

One of the perfect examples is Garuda EX where OT have to tank one of the adds that garuda spawns, also maintain the DoT (from the plume) at 2 stacks on whoever it is and provoke it back to you or start with it on you. I can't imagine doing this solo-tankig.

For better and harder dungeons (the ones that are doable in 2 tanks) they should add to trash mobs some big hitting one or one that can add debuffs which stacks with other trash mobs attacks. Like you are heading to a group of trash mobs, 5 of them are minor earth-type damage dealers and 2 of them are adding the debuff that multiplies the earth damage by 3 times. OT and MT have to know their roles and what to do to pull out 2 adds from group of 7 (it's not as simple as provoke on one, because the second still be doing the debuff). Ofc those debuff type monsters should be sleep-resistant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaero

So.... people getting the "epic lootz" all of a sudden rely on that gear and solo tank to show off.

Plus, tanking as PLD isn't really that glamorous. I prefer WAR tanking myself. But, PLD is for those that enjoy "flexing" and showing off.

---

TL;DR: LOL'ed.

'Tank' you, you made my day brighter.

What is this thing about feeling god when playing any jobs, Tank-Healer-DPS-Whatever?

I never felt compelled to brag about how cool-looking I am.

I do Glamour for myself first; if I like it, until I see everyone on the server with the same glamour, I'll be happy.

What's important in the game: Skills, and having fun (which should comes 1st). Glamour is when you are bored (no one is unique on an MMO, for long.)

No matter what class/job you play, if you aren't having fun, in a game, you either do it wrong, or the DEVs.

The skill part: you need to practice, to wipe, to learn from it and from your comrades if they try to help you in a decent way, not to put you on the defensive.

It's all for your greater good, and the good of your party.

Some people say there is a shortage of Tanks. I see plenty of them everywhere on Gilgamesh. To the point that in my ex-FC, we had to take turns as Tanks so that we could get some gear in Coil.

The Shortage comes from 2 things:

a) Tanks are fed up with people who lack skills the same than Healer and DPS, and I mean as well personal relation skills. They opt to play within their FC, a few PF mostly with friends from other FC they know well, and LS, which is wayyy better than PUGs. No rudeness, no problem, everyone's on the same page, and actually some chat goes around! Higher chances of getting that content done. In-cre-di-ble.

Little story (yesterday night - Queued Titan EM DF - waited about 30 mins with an FC mate - finally got in - one Tank (it's been 2 months I've played - we wipe - says yup, something bad about my connection I lag so bad, have to reset my connection - Leaves >.< others that are killed - same thing, Lag again is blamed - well, we voted abandon, got into ST in 3 mins - done. Thank you PUGs)

b) Hunts. Yup, it's all the rage these days, and with certainty. You will see less people in Dungeons and Trials than ever. Not only Tanks, but if you Hunt you'll see all the WHM are there too ^^

So SE is trying to find ways to circumvent this, like SV last boss mechanics, and ST requiring only 3 Tanks.

I say it's a good start. Just don't make the Role useless like certain fights where if you weren't there, it wouldn't change a thing. (except SV - love it to see everyone on the go ^^)

Every role has it's place in this game, and if you don't like to play one: just don't play it and don't complain about the lack of it.

Quote:

---

OP - I don't like the idea - Over long fights, our fatigue comes from the lack of TP. There is plenty enough on us not to add more to it. Seems like other mentionned, perhaps a little break is required from Tanking. Then you can feel refreshed from your fatigue. And if you have to stop tanking to rest, when the other tank is dead, fell off can't revive, what are you supposed to do? Nope, I'm not for it.

---

I just hope if Samurai comes or that Gun Tank job, that it will make things more fresh and fun to play again, perhaps getting more tanks overall.

And then again - with a lvl cap, who knows if the PLD will get some cool DPS AoE Skill like Heaven's Judgment which will generate so much hate that Rage of Halone will be jealous. - with SE, you never know, and that's what I'm excited about ^^

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zaero

Plus, tanking as PLD isn't really that glamorous. I prefer WAR tanking myself. But, PLD is for those that enjoy "flexing" and showing off.

---

I don't really even get what you're trying to say here. I've seen just as many braggart WAR as PLD.

This is a forum not a school/college/university. Can we have less walls of text and more succinct answers please.

*goes into Forums to read comments - can't read comments more than 1000 characters ^^ (surely needs a degree)

Guess I know for whom the TL;DR are, wait I'll edit my post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zoeila

why not have more bosses like hydra where you want 2 tanks in order to split the damage instead of tank swapping.

---

This method was easily exploitable by simply just over gearing healers and tank and thus turning the fight into yet another single tank battle. (Hydra became a single tank fight once your tank had a few pieces of i90 equipment)

Tbh, DPS is the name of the game. Kill boss faster so everyone can get a roll at loot faster. People will find all sorts of ways to lose a tank, because apparently doing content without one shows skill and ingenuity (or just a faster way to farm with our ADHD generation). Even a complex tank fight like garuda can be single tanked. Unless there's an obvious brick wall for not going dual tanking, or it just draws out the fight longer than actual dual tanks, people will do what they can for lessening the amount of 'unnecessary fluff' that is the tank job, despite whatever interesting tanking mechanic you throw in there.

Look at early ramuh ex fight pre-fix, I mean the concept of gaining a buff that reduces healing while increasing resistance to certain attacks seems interesting, but once people found that exploit, it's appearent they're willing to throw that mechanic out the window.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KingOfAbyss

*goes into Forums to read comments - can't read comments more than 1000 characters ^^ (surely needs a degree)

Guess I know for whom the TL;DR are, wait I'll edit my post.

---

Actually I graduated last month thanks:D

Easiest method to make duo tanking and tanking in general more interesting at the moment is to add bosses that requires alot of movement and positioning(like 2nd boss in Haukke HM)or boss fights where there are two diffirent bosses at the sametime and not just mini-boss like adds like we have on garuda/twintania etc(kinda like levi but more brutal). Those two options should be pretty doable for SE to make, personally i would love to see dual boss encounter with added movement, because tank swapping after few stacks while standing mostly still is pretty damn boring.

i for one dont like being asked to solo tank. firstly, aint nobody else doing twice their job. if people showed a little respect itd be different but they dont. ive got t5 kills now as dps and heals on top of tank and tank IS THE HARDEST POSITION yet still party members act like tanking is easy. i understand the few combos deal but i think thats so you can focus on running the party and not your combos. getting into scob and the ex primals tanks put in work, tank swapping, stuns on lex, etc. tanks make decisions all the time that make or break the party, jump in conflag, keep hate or kill the add, throw a cover and get diced. whats deeps doing? button mashing? gtfo

The easiest way to avoid encounters which are meant for two tanks where players find ways to make them single-tank fights (Caduceus), would be more fights like Leviathan where the two sections of the boss cannot be moved at all, or the two halves must be tanked separately to avoid them gaining a mutual buff (or debuffing the raid, more like), or for the massive raid challenge, bosses without aggro tables.

Obviously this won't be every fight, and there have been more fights in dungeons for 2.3 than previously, but I think these suggestions in raids would add some excitement. At least, something I would find exciting as a Warrior.

That said, it's nice to be in an encounter where someone else can take over and I can pop on my DPS gear and pretend I was back in FFXI for just a minute. Everything in moderation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Killabye

whats deeps doing? button mashing? gtfo

---

I cringe every time I see a comment like this, as a tank, healer and dps player across many mmos for many years. Yes, it may seem like your DPS is just "mashing buttons", but if they are worth their spot in the party, they are timing buffs, debuffs, and their own oshit abilities, while remaining mobile, watching their damage output so they don't take threat, and keep an eye out for things they can do to help the rest of the party not die (such as timely stuns when a tank is distracted and can't pick up an add right away that's making a beeline for the healer).

So yes, tanks have a hard job. Yes I agree that single-tanking encounters puts more strain on them. Yes, I agree that SE really needs to sit down and script\storyboard these fights a LOT better so they are challenging without being needlessly frustrating (ala instadeath EVERYTHING).

No, I do not agree that "deeps" is doing nothing, and if they are, you need better deeps, my friend.

This will just make tank swapping more prevalent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nathan061111

The longer a fight goes on the more damage you take and if you don't tank the boss for a while you recover to what you had before? That's pretty much what you wrote and want introduced?

It exists and its called Titan Extreme mode.

---

TEX is easily solo tanked and has been solo'd well before the echo buff was introduced ;)

When I hear Intuitive tanking, I generally don't think tanking swapping... That concept is done 20 different ways but it's always a simple one to grasp.

Intuitive tanking to me will always be more in line with Position and Facing of mobs/mechanics. I feel it's far more intuitive for an experienced tank to determine an appropriate motion and position that not only keeps the rest of the raid safe, but also gives them every opportunity possible to meet the highest effective output they can.

If a boss can cleave, and a tank must pick up an add that spawns on the other side of the room, then three situations can take place:
1. Bad tank will run straight to the mob and cleave anyone along the way
2. Good tank will take a longer route to keep everyone safe to pick up the mob
3. Best tank will anticipate the mob and already be on top of it when it spawns (taking the safe route to get there)

Now take this case above and place some dynamic mechanics on the ground that may force some routes to become more dangerous then others. The tank will absolutely require intuition to find the best course of action in what ever situation presents itself.

Situational awareness while maintaining the concern for core boss mechanics is something that just can't be drilled into a bad tank (at least, not without pounding your face into a wall for a very long time).


It's not all about how much damage your taking, but the situations you create for your team to do what they must to both survive and succeed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Warrlordd

Many current and good endgame tanks will tell you it isn't really all that fun. Also the idea that many fights can be solo tanked when SE is clearly designing the game for a 2-tank paradigm seems a bit wrong.

---

The problem with your idea and why is hasn't been implemented before, is because it sucks.

1. More off-tanking increases the dps needed (adds or additional boss mobs)
2. More mobs can mean more damage to heal.
3. You are going to throw off the raid balance anyway and Once geared we will use less tanks and more dps to do it faster.

So it would just perpetuate the problem, unless they increased the amount of players required... 24 is already enough. Just be happy this game favors random queue's to gear a lot of roles versus in EQ2 or Rift and other MMO's where your composition is 2% Tank (1-3), 8% Heal (4-5), 90% Dmg. (12-15).

Taking your disenchanted friends comment as cannon for everyone. Can't take this seriously. Tanks tank because they enjoy it.

Somewhat off topic, but along the lines of what I think of when I hear "intuitive tanking" -- greater use of geometry in fights, and those mechanics more manipulable, using the whole team potentially.

The only thing I'd really like to see is some way by which the tank's role could be less isolated and/or taken for granted. As much as I'd fear the idea of 'team effort' tanking in a DF, I can't help but want the thrill of a truly difficult and coordinated effort being needed to survive, at least in certain fights. Split-cleaves are one example of this. Damage-reduced cleaves are another, where as the cleave moves through from point A to B (e.g. right to left on a dullahan swing or whatnot), each player hit reduces its remaining damage to be dealt. Damage-for-interruption would be another, where burst damage, especially physical, could help to balk or stifle an enemy attack. At that point, everyone's taking, everyone has to deal with it, and the step to playing a real tank is no longer so huge. The only remaining step is to how to stay entertained without any real [dps] rotation. On that note, I do hope both PLD and WAR might get a bit more interesting rotations with time--wouldn't take much. Counter-attacks (where damage attacking in a certain direction partially assists damage to be done in the opposite direction, especially from that attack's intended target (who has dodged)) might also make tanking more interesting.

In terms of making tanks more desirable generally, one could always bring in some manner of functional weapon types, where the difference goes beyond merely which ability is used for your obligatory 10% damage bonus--e.g. piercing excels in creating bypasses through armor and sharp interruption; blunt can deal more interruption, esp. through armor, and increases bypass sizes; slashing damage has a small native cleave mechanic, etc.. Probably would only fit if the abilities themselves dealt damage according to each attack within the ability, i.e. 2 attacks in Dragon Kick, Maim, and Straight Shot, 3 in Chaos Thrust, a bunch in Demolish...

Edit: with the tanks being the only slashing types, the native cleave mechanic on slashing attacks might give them a bit more to work with than just Flash, Overpower, and Steel Cyclone on AoE pulls.