Can we all agree to disagree?

I've been on these forums a while now, and I have consistently seen players asking for more immersion, more open world content, and a more dangerous world, many of them are ex-FFXI/EQ players.

Lets face it we're two different generations, we appreciate different things but generalizing here you have the old generation, and the current generation of players who like the theme park MMO concept.


So why haven't they given the two camps separate servers by now? RP/Hardcore Servers maybe? Keep the instanced content the same, no need to worry about balancing for two groups of players. FFXIV should have enough players now that some players leaving won't be a huge impact.



Also please don't say, "just go play FFXI, it's still running". Hey FFXIV has a lot going for it, frontline, trials and content is coming out at an acceptable pace, there's just some of us who would enjoy the game more if it didn't break immersion so much


Chief complaints I hear and maybe change we could try:

1. The world feels too small -> Only hub teleports then, cost should be incentive enough to not break the bank, but still make you try to plan your quests accordingly to minimize gil wastage. Maybe casters can unlock the smaller aetherytes?

2. Duty finder totally breaks immersion -> You can only queue for DF instances on your continent, it would be great because it will distribute players more evenly around the world, but face it, DF is here to stay - maybe reward traveling to an instance, let them decide - make the open world mobs on the way decent exp and hard enough to be a risk. Maybe we'll find nice players step up and keep these paths clear and earn exp in the open world.

3. Dying isn't serious enough / lack of caring -> Higher durability damage/cost (no exp loss, that'll never happen especially with difficulty of trials/coil), weakness lasts longer and isn't removed if you respawn, but raise weakness lasts a shorter time, encourage fighting till the bitter end. Raising will be preferable over > oh lets just reset and teleport back here. Raising lowers durability damage - it was always nice to get a friendly raise from a passing WHM! Now people are so apathetic.

4. The world gives no sense of adventure -> Make common mobs harder? Remind you of FFXI yet? If travel is harder we'd probably see a general shift from already tedious leves to HUNTs/FATEs/common mob camping, I find initating and teleporting and collecting rewards tedious already, should be a minimal impact here regardless. Also there is safety in numbers, higher death penalty means it may be better to level in groups, especially if common mobs are harder. Balancing this there should be more exp per mob, since they'd take longer to kill and keeping risk vs reward about the same.


It'd be the same game, but on RP servers it may be harder/take longer to accomplish things, but at least it'd feel like an accomplishment, for many of the things in FFXIV, I can't say the same.
It'd enforce a more serious atmosphere towards dangerous trials/coils and increase the sense of accomplishment there too, knowing you need to risk a certain amount of gil to beat it. Heck even hunts may be better off, knowing death is a bit more serious, but thanks for listening and failing at the same time to our requests for more open world content SQEnix.

Anyways if all these change make you cringe, what's it to you? Worst case we try it, don't like it and come back, SQEnix makes a bunch of money off server transfers, gil sinks and all (maybe waive that?).
And I don't really mind the way FFXIV is now, sure I'd move to a server like I mentioned in an instant for these changes, but I don't hate FFXIV as much as some people seem to, maybe they'll go there and realize how much of a convenience theme-park MMOs offer and come back with a new perspective, yay less bickering on the forums.

Oh, this again.

Short answer: both would be empty a matter of months.
Long answer: use search.

I think the main problem with that is that it would slow the pace for the patches, takes some time to make such twitch for every single content.

overall, not a bad idea, but I doubt people or SE would agree/make it happen.

EDIT:
I understand your point, however, every tweak they make delay the pace for the patches, did you noticed? every new patch takes a bit longer to come than the previous one, direct consequences of tweaks like the frontline fix.
Doing what you suggest would take a considerable amount of time which would delay the patches even further.
what is best? to please a few and make everyone wait/dipleased or to please everyone?

I understand your plea, but it is currently something that would saddly cause more detriments than benefits.

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

I think the main problem with that is that it would slow the pace for the patches, takes some time to make such twitch for every single content.

overall, not a bad idea, but I doubt people or SE would agree/make it happen.

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I'm only asking for changing of parameters, to start:

- you just scale the mobs differently (HP/dmg/exp reward)
- disable a few aetherytes
- lockout DF instances based on location
- scale the parameters on death penalty gil loss/durability loss and
- adjust the parmeters around weakness, to promote survival over "just throw your hands up in the air and give up" <-- I hate this the most btw!

You have to consider the amount of work required for the profit it would give in turn. The bottom line is, how many people are quitting because the world isn't hardcore enough? How many people would join back up for a hardcore world?

And then, how much revenue would that be compared to the maintenance to update/maintain that world? I know a lot of people on the forums talk about it, but the forums are very much vocal minority.

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Originally Posted by Litre

- disable a few aetherytes

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I keep seeing a few people saying this, but really, does it matter people like to teleport? Nothing is stopping you from walking everywhere, so why eliminate convenience 'just because'? If someone wants to teleport, let them, it's their play time and their gil paying for the privilege of teleportation, who are you to dictate how they travel across Eorzea? It's there to be used - but that doesn't mean you have to use it exclusively.

It's like using your car to travel a short distance - you could easily walk it or ride a bike, but most people will still insist on driving. Why? Because it's convenient. In the same way, people teleport because it's convenient. You don't have to rely on it, but it's there if you wish to use it.

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Originally Posted by Saccharin

Oh, this again.

Short answer: both would be empty a matter of months.
Long answer: use search.

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Might be the only one bugged by this, but your short answer is longer than your long answer >.>

I think I read this same thread like 3-4 times already on forums just with different titles.

Strongly oppose/disagree with all OP's suggestion/feedback.

Reason for post: ATMA

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Originally Posted by Gextiv

snip: ATMA

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hmmmm no matter how I look at it, i just can't see Atma in relation to any of his arguments except the first :/

2/ yeah sure, you travel the world because of atma but it doesnt change the fact that the mobs are totally irrelevent, remove them and auto win the fates, there's no difference except that fact you actually pushed buttons.

3/dying only make you lose a possibility to obtain an atma, considering the chances you have to get one and how hard it is to die in these fates.... no atma still has nothing to do with it.

4/again there's no difficulty in atma farming, so no sense of adventure.

while i can understand why you disagree with him, this one argument just doesn't fit.
you a have a reason without doubts, but atma probably isn't a problem with his ideas, even tho you think it does.

(unless you meant that atma would be even more bothersome in a server like his, then i agree)

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Because it's convenient. In the same way, people teleport because it's convenient. You don't have to rely on it, but it's there if you wish to use it.

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This argument was used many times and was hashed out pretty thoroughly here, I'm boring "my" quote from another poster, along the same vein though: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2302492

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Originally Posted by Litre

... to illustrate that the same argument people use against the convenience of teleporting, can be applied to any feature in the game that affects exp/hour gain. [...]
For example:
Proposal: I don't like X convenience (time saving feature: teleports/FATE grinding/duty finder), because it diminishes my sense of immersion, enjoyment, skips content, etc
Argument: Ha! I love that convenience, if you don't like it, just don't use it, nobody is forcing you to use it, so why is it a problem/needs to change

I'm just arguing that the above argument is flawed, because I can extend it to anything, including increased exp gain conveniences ranging from little things like food (OK) to not ok (eat this food for free exp, pay to win?). Because if they added food that gives exp, would you think it's wrong? If they said, "well if you don't like it, don't buy the food!". Ok maybe it's expensive, what if it wasn't? They can still use that flawed argument, don't buy it if you don't want to!

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It's what sparked me to write the OP, anyways people always choose the path of least resistance, and it's not sufficient to just argue: If you don't like this convenience, just don't use it, no one is forcing you to,

There should always be a set progress (exp/gil)/hour limit, it's poor game design to have a bunch of ways to gain exp that are way easier, but detract from the game. I for one (and I know not everyone) feel that it detracts from the game. And well what I'm proposing goes further than just nerfing teleports for the sake of the larger game world, but also exp gain, increased risk and much more. But I prefer this over a bland, uninteresting world with no challenge except a few instances, this is more like team ropejumping.

And I know it's only a smaller proportion of us that actually want "Final Fantasy Slow/Hard Mode", so why not give us a server to try it on, it'd stop a lot of whining here for sure, because I hear the same things over and over again... SQEnix needs to just accept that they can't make everyone happy with one model.

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

3/dying only make you lose a possibility to obtain an atma, considering the chances you have to get one and how hard it is to die in these fates.... no atma still has nothing to do with it.

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Actually, you can get an atma while dead, just as long as you had contributed enough already to the FATE before dying.

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Originally Posted by Litre

Snip

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And like people have already pointed out to you in the other thread you're comparing two very different things. One is the rate you accrue experience and how that affects game balance. The other is the ability to move around the world. And hunts non-withstanding, teleports allowing more freedom of movement to players is hardly unbalanced.

This is a very valid example where "don't use it if you don't want to" applies. I know, because I run to where I want to go almost always.

I'm sure you're in the camp where you don't see why it's such a big deal, and that's fine, the majority don't see why it's a big deal, but the OP and I and many others do feel that the detrimental effect it as on immersion, the size of the world and engagement in the world. We try not to use it, but it's so easy and we have so much gil it's hard not to, on the other hand I feel less and less engaged with the game, because it no longer feels like a vibrant amazing world, but rather a theme park - there is no engagement at that point. Cheap thrill rides and no real depth.


And as I have vehemently responded to, and pointed out, they are not so different as to call it apples and oranges, in fact teleports have a direct effect on exp gain by increasing the time it takes to get to an exp zone and back to town, just a very small one. But small or big, the argument, "just don't use it isn't a very good one", especially when some of us believes it ruins the sense of the scale of the world as one way to put it.


If you told me to draw the map of Eorzea, I have no idea which zones go next to which zones, I don't recognize valleys or mountains and can't imagine the world, so it's no surprise to me why I feel so un-immersed and un-engaged, I really don't care. I sit in town, and play slot machines all day. I rather play a MMO in a world I can visualize, and feel accomplished when I do something, and worry about running into something that can kill me around the next corner. And most of all I want to play this game with other people who prioritize the same things I do and work to achieve things in a harsher, more real world.

I'm sorry, but that really sounds like a personal problem than a real issue with the game.

Like I said, I mostly run to everywhere in the game. I don't feel any need to greatly decrease the mobility of everyone else just because you "fall to temptation" and use teleports. Same thing with wanting to force players to run to the actual dungeon to enter it instead of being able to enter from any part of the world.

It is a minority problem, not a personal, I'd say about 5-10% of the player base would consider a more serious game (just pulling numbers out of the air), don't forget I'm not necessarily arguing against the status quo, and you're not arguing directly with my points anyways so that's fine.

I'm saying there is decent enough group of players who continually complain on these forums that it should be considered to make servers for these players, we won't know how many players would consider such a server, but I don't think it'd hurt much to try. I would definitely move, some players may be too attached to their friends etc, but others are itching for a more engaging game that capitalizes on what FFXI did right, and still allow us to enjoy the world of Eorzea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Litre

And I know it's only a smaller proportion of us that actually want "Final Fantasy Slow/Hard Mode", so why not give us a server to try it on, it'd stop a lot of whining here for sure, because I hear the same things over and over again... SQEnix needs to just accept that they can't make everyone happy with one model.

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Originally Posted by Eissels

You have to consider the amount of work required for the profit it would give in turn. The bottom line is, how many people are quitting because the world isn't hardcore enough? How many people would join back up for a hardcore world?

And then, how much revenue would that be compared to the maintenance to update/maintain that world? I know a lot of people on the forums talk about it, but the forums are very much vocal minority.

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/10character

Good questions, how many people are quitting? A recent translated thread showed that interest is waning, and the idea of a separate server with different adjusted parameters is not new either. I myself see less and less players, a few come back to check out the patch, but many share my same gripes. It's a theme park MMO, I didn't really sign up for this, ah frontline was fun! But everything else, unengaging, some like it some don't.

Maintaining a world is fine, I'm a software engineer myself, they just scale out more worlds as needed and having an experimental world isn't that bad - especially since we're not asking for major changes, you need to set it up initially, everything else is scripted.


As long as it has enough players, and maintains our interest it'll pay for itself, it would be an important and much needed experiment, because at the moment all we can do is guess. I think there will be an initial draw to players, especially older FFXI players, they have their statistics, if it keeps players who currently play less, more engaged, it'll say a lot.