Ninja: Walk in shadow.

Welcome to the ninja thread. This thread will now be a help/information thread for aspiring and master rogue and ninja players. Rotations, optimal equipment, and other questions and advice can be posted here. Stay friendly and on topic.

Rogue
Weapons: Daggers, Bladed weapons.
Primary Stat: Dexterity
Relic Weapon: Yoshimitsu
Artifact Armor: Ninja Chainmail set.
AF+1: Koga Chainmail set

Unlocking Ninja: Rogue Level 30. Pugilist Level 15
Cross-Classes: Pugilist, Lancer
Cross Class abilities: (To Be Added)

Class Abilities
Level 1: Spinning Edge
Level 2: Perfect Dodge
Level 4: Gust Slash
Level 6: Kiss of the Wasp
Level 8: Mutilate
Level 10: Hide
Level 12: Assassinate
Level 15: Throwing Dagger
Level 18: Mug
Level 22: Goad
Level 26: Sneak Attack
Level 30: Dancing Edge
Level 34: Kiss of the Viper
Level 38: Death Blossom
Level 42: Aeolian Edge
Level 46: Jugulate
Level 50: Shadow Fang/Trick Attack (WIP)

Ninja Abilities
Level 30: Ten, Ninjutsu
Level 35: Chi
Level 40: Shukuchi
Level 45: Jin
Level 50: Kassatsu

Ninjutsu
(WIP)

Rotations
(WIP)

More info to be added soon.

Ninjas probably do slashing damage, which will benefit from Warrior's stormeye combo.

Could just as easily be piercing damage, though. That's what daggers were in XI (and most any other game with piercing/slashing/blunt). I don't remember what katanas were, though.

yeah thats very interesting, could be either or depending on weapons equipped?
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katanas were slashing in xi, will be interesting to see still though as shuriken are piercing, and kunai if thrown are also piercing (although in xi kunai were melee slashing)

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Originally Posted by Xisin

katanas were slashing in xi, will be interesting to see still though as shuriken are piercing, and kunai if thrown are also piercing (although in xi kunai were melee slashing)

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only a few weapon types differed from the standard in XI, though, such as rapiers being piercing while all other swords were slashing, as well as like one blunt spear and one set of blunt arrows. And even then, any WS was the primary damage type of the weapon type, and ignored whatever quality the equipped weapon had (like a sword WS using a rapier was still slashing damage, even those autoattacks were piercing).

It's probably best not to over think things. While we know that dagger models have been removed from the gladiator's list of arms, there aren't really enough models to sustain the rogue and ninja equipment list. Single edge weapons like the small axes from the rogue official renders, AF, Leviathan, and Allagan, all depict edge weapons meant for slashing. We can pretty much infer then, that ninja and rogues will fall under the slashing damage type.
http://www.finalfantasy.net/wp-conte...4/06/ninja.png
http://www.finalfantasy.net/wp-conte...6/levianin.png
http://www.finalfantasy.net/wp-conte...ighallagan.png

One thing I am curious about, is whether ninja will get asymmetrical weapons. The high allagan blades appear to have differing colors, but retain the same model. On that note, I do wonder what the names of the relic blades are called.

The sub-job to unlock Ninja will probably be Pugilist.

We'll I guess I need to save my 12 tamas I have not use yet and see where I might take this. Do we know the release date for rogue and ninja? I think rogue====>ninja will b in the same scenarios as archanist====>sch/Smn in terms of stats. Archanist had int passive trait which boost n but useless on sch since they healers( I'm not a healer I'm not sure). So it might b the same with rogue being dex base but ninja is str so I'm safely assuming that will see another job that's dex base to venture off rogue

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Originally Posted by Butcherboy

We'll I guess I need to save my 12 tamas I have not use yet and see where I might take this. Do we know the release date for rogue and ninja? I think rogue====>ninja will b in the same scenarios as archanist====>sch/Smn in terms of stats. Archanist had int passive trait which boost n but useless on sch since they healers( I'm not a healer I'm not sure). So it might b the same with rogue being dex base but ninja is str so I'm safely assuming that will see another job that's dex base to venture off rogue

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Not likely, SE was kinda disappointed with how Scholar and Summoner turned out so they aren't really looking to do any branching classes, in some instances I can see it... but like for instance making two DPS jobs off a DPS class would be silly would play WAY too similar.

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Originally Posted by Axeus

Not likely, SE was kinda disappointed with how Scholar and Summoner turned out so they aren't really looking to do any branching classes, in some instances I can see it... but like for instance making two DPS jobs off a DPS class would be silly would play WAY too similar.

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its not that SE was disappointed with how it worked, its just nearly incredibly difficult to repeat without having 2 nearly identical classes, the main reason summoner and scholar works so well is because of the alteration of pets being game-changing to the class.

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Originally Posted by Zamii

its not that SE was disappointed with how it worked, its just nearly incredibly difficult to repeat without having 2 nearly identical classes, the main reason summoner and scholar works so well is because of the alteration of pets being game-changing to the class.

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What gets me about the reasoning SE presented is that they could easily use the job soul crystals as the main way to alter stats to allow two jobs to come from one class. Unless they're pressed for time to do something like this, I still don't see why they haven't use this approach already.

I can admit that certain classes would be more difficult to work with than others (CNJ in particular is entirely built around healing), but a class like GLA could easily morph into a DPS job if the job crystal changed the aspects of certain GLA abilities.

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Originally Posted by Dynza

One thing I am curious about, is whether ninja will get asymmetrical weapons. The high allagan blades appear to have differing colors, but retain the same model. On that note, I do wonder what the names of the relic blades are called.

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the difference in the picture with the high allagen weapons would be sheathed (darker) and unsheathed (glowing red) versions, not different for each hand.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

What gets me about the reasoning SE presented is that they could easily use the job soul crystals as the main way to alter stats to allow two jobs to come from one class. Unless they're pressed for time to do something like this, I still don't see why they haven't use this approach already.

I can admit that certain classes would be more difficult to work with than others (CNJ in particular is entirely built around healing), but a class like GLA could easily morph into a DPS job if the job crystal changed the aspects of certain GLA abilities.

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SE made a post months ago about it, cant remember for sure where it was but short version is they had no plans to repeat this class design philosophy any time soon.

I wonder if the two daggers will be treated as separate items or as a single weapon. If they are separate weapons with one going into the shield slot then it opens up some very interesting options. Secondary daggers with status effects for example. Perhaps silence, poison or resistance lowering, each of more or less use in different fights.
I have a UAT I was going to use for the sch book, but I'm seriously considering saving it for NIN.

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Originally Posted by charlemagne

I wonder if the two daggers will be treated as separate items or as a single weapon. If they are separate weapons with one going into the shield slot then it opens up some very interesting options. Secondary daggers with status effects for example. Perhaps silence, poison or resistance lowering, each of more or less use in different fights.
I have a UAT I was going to use for the sch book, but I'm seriously considering saving it for NIN.

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F:I know it’s a dual wield job, but will you use two weapons like you did in FFXI?

Y: It’ll be different. Even though it’s a pair of weapons, it will both be together as one weapon. You won’t equip each one separately.

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Nope.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ransparent.gif

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Nope.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ransparent.gif

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Awww I think that's a missed opportunity. I've been hoping we might get some status effect weapons for a while now. I'd originally hoped it might be status effect arrows but gave up on that idea once arrows disappeared from the game in 2.0. Remember all the different status effect arrows we had in xi? Blind,poison,sleep, acid, elemental dmg etc.

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Originally Posted by charlemagne

Awww I think that's a missed opportunity. I've been hoping we might get some status effect weapons for a while now. I'd originally hoped it might be status effect arrows but gave up on that idea once arrows disappeared from the game in 2.0. Remember all the different status effect arrows we had in xi? Blind,poison,sleep, acid, elemental dmg etc.

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The issue I have is, it effectively doubles the work SE would have to do and puts Ninja at a loot disadvantage. It's worked in other games, but it'd be much more annoying here.

In the recent live letter preview we can see 4 mudra. They're heavily stylized kanji by the looks of it and to the best of my ability I believe they are the following (in order of appearance): 决, 巾, 老, 赳. Respectively: "Decisive," "Width/Breadth," "old/aged," "Grand/Valiant" or thereabouts.

The Ninjutsu mudra combos shown are:
决: Giant exploding shurikan thrown.
巾+老: Bolt of lightning.
Unknown combination: Ice.
巾+巾: Fire.
Uknown combination: Earth swirl.
决+赳+巾: Tornado thing.
巾+巾+巾: Water spout.

Each mudra appears to be off the GCD. The Ninjutsu which require 3 mudra take about 3 seconds to input. Therefor it's highly likely that the bulk of the NIN's DPS will come from Rogue abilities and that they will most likely be DoT's. Essentially a melee-SMN sans pet.

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Originally Posted by Dynza

Paladin's skills potency is drawn from strength

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Just want to point out that physical weapon skills deal damage based on Attack Potency, not STR/DEX. STR/DEX determines AP at a 1:1 ratio (in addition to parry/block rates/mitigation). Whether or not STR or DEX raises AP is determined by the weapon type. For now DEX=AP only for bows and STR=AP for every other weapon (including books/staves/wands/rods/cudgels). This is why it's so easy to make any weapon DEX or STR based, it's literally just a flip of a switch. It's mis-worded and an inaccurate over-simplification on the current tool-tip for DEX where it states it effects ranged attacks. This can be seen with all non-ARC/BRD ranged attacks scaling off of AP which is based on their weapon's stat (STR) and not based on DEX despite them being ranged attacks.

In beta abilities such as Tomahawk did in fact scale off of DEX but they did next to no damage due to their base classes gearing for STR. This is when they rectified the damage formulas for weapon skills to scale off of AP instead of the base stat. The DEX/STR tool-tips are basically just remnants that sort of work in the current model until you bring in all of the non-ARC/BRD ranged attacks.

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Originally Posted by charlemagne

Awww I think that's a missed opportunity. I've been hoping we might get some status effect weapons for a while now. I'd originally hoped it might be status effect arrows but gave up on that idea once arrows disappeared from the game in 2.0. Remember all the different status effect arrows we had in xi? Blind,poison,sleep, acid, elemental dmg etc.

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I believe somewhere it was also said that if it was two seperate weapons it would put NIN at a equipment advantage compared to other classes/jobs I mean if you look at it this way. As Exstal said it really comes down to doubling the balancing work, imagine two i110 weapons both with their own damage, both with their own materia slots, and both give their own stats. Now compared to the other DPS classes that kind of puts them at a disadvantage damage wise unless the stat, damage, and materia slots are shared stats and don't go over eachother.

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Originally Posted by Axeus

I believe somewhere it was also said that if it was two seperate weapons it would put NIN at a equipment advantage compared to other classes/jobs I mean if you look at it this way. As Exstal said it really comes down to doubling the balancing work, imagine two i110 weapons both with their own damage, both with their own materia slots, and both give their own stats. Now compared to the other DPS classes that kind of puts them at a disadvantage damage wise unless the stat, damage, and materia slots are shared stats and don't go over eachother.

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Funnily enough Yoshi stated it would be unfair to Ninja due to needing the extra time/gil/space investment to gear an extra slot in comparison to other classes.

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

Funnily enough Yoshi stated it would be unfair to Ninja due to needing the extra time/gil/space investment to gear an extra slot in comparison to other classes.

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I can imagine trying to farm the myth for two weapons... or the materials to create two weapons... my god can you imagine if for long range skills they had to equip a third weapon and it first had to be created? The rage.

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Originally Posted by Axeus

I can imagine trying to farm the myth for two weapons... or the materials to create two weapons... my god can you imagine if for long range skills they had to equip a third weapon and it first had to be created? The rage.

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You're not even looking at the hardest part;

24 Atma
30 books (27,000 myth)
150 Alexandrite?

OOOOOOOOOOOO k.

Or Novus + Allagan/High Allagan/Dark Allagan

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Originally Posted by MartaDemireux

In the recent live letter preview we can see 4 mudra. They're heavily stylized kanji by the looks of it and to the best of my ability I believe they are the following (in order of appearance): 决, 巾, 老, 赳. Respectively: "Decisive," "Width/Breadth," "old/aged," "Grand/Valiant" or thereabouts.

The Ninjutsu mudra combos shown are:
决: Giant exploding shurikan thrown.
巾+老: Bolt of lightning.
Unknown combination: Ice.
巾+巾: Fire.
Uknown combination: Earth swirl.
决+赳+巾: Tornado thing.
巾+巾+巾: Water spout.

Each mudra appears to be off the GCD. The Ninjutsu which require 3 mudra take about 3 seconds to input. Therefor it's highly likely that the bulk of the NIN's DPS will come from Rogue abilities and that they will most likely be DoT's. Essentially a melee-SMN sans pet.



Just want to point out that physical weapon skills deal damage based on Attack Potency, not STR/DEX. STR/DEX determines AP at a 1:1 ratio (in addition to parry/block rates/mitigation). Whether or not STR or DEX raises AP is determined by the weapon type. For now DEX=AP only for bows and STR=AP for every other weapon (including books/staves/wands/rods/cudgels). This is why it's so easy to make any weapon DEX or STR based, it's literally just a flip of a switch. It's mis-worded and an inaccurate over-simplification on the current tool-tip for DEX where it states it effects ranged attacks. This can be seen with all non-ARC/BRD ranged attacks scaling off of AP which is based on their weapon's stat (STR) and not based on DEX despite them being ranged attacks.

In beta abilities such as Tomahawk did in fact scale off of DEX but they did next to no damage due to their base classes gearing for STR. This is when they rectified the damage formulas for weapon skills to scale off of AP instead of the base stat. The DEX/STR tool-tips are basically just remnants that sort of work in the current model until you bring in all of the non-ARC/BRD ranged attacks.

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I'm aware of how the system actually works. I simply trying to keep things simple for simplicity's sake.

As for the ninjutsu symbols. Originally I thought they were Kanji, but after closer analyzing it seemed more stylized towards Sanskrit than Chinese characters. But I couldn't really find any close approximations to the symbols used. At this point, I'm assuming they're using some pseudo-symbol combinations that are more or less resembling Eorzean/Hydalaen script. Lore would probably love to ask what each symbol means, but I get the sense we'll know when the class is released, or during the next interview around Gamescom time.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

You're not even looking at the hardest part;

24 Atma
30 books (27,000 myth)
150 Alexandrite?

OOOOOOOOOOOO k.

Or Novus + Allagan/High Allagan/Dark Allagan

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To be fair, if the ninja weapons were individually equipped, they would've used the same format as the paladin weapon and shield. So they wouldn't twice as much as anyone else.


I plan to do a video analysis of the moves we've seen so far very soon. Just need a little free time and I'll post ahead and you guys can comment or speculate to your hearts desire.

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Originally Posted by Dynza

To be fair, if the ninja weapons were individually equipped, they would've used the same format as the paladin weapon and shield. So they wouldn't twice as much as anyone else.

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Ah, I was under the impression that you could use the weapons in either hand if you wanted. Having two different Novus' with complementing or different stats would be all kinds of crazy. Reminds me of Aion's Assassin.

While many of are still assuming there will be a class needed to unlock, which based on videos it has similar movements to pugilist and dragoon.
However has it not been said that Rogue is a completely new class of itself and Ninja will be the job so if that be the case pugilist or other classes would not be needed, maybe only for cross class abilities.
I actually think the class will have attacks that cause bleeding and other dot

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Originally Posted by Maero

While many of are still assuming there will be a class needed to unlock, which based on videos it has similar movements to pugilist and dragoon.
However has it not been said that Rogue is a completely new class of itself and Ninja will be the job so if that be the case pugilist or other classes would not be needed, maybe only for cross class abilities.
I actually think the class will have attacks that cause bleeding and other dot

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You're forgetting that every Job requires lv30 in one class (in this case, Rogue) and lv15 in another class (most likely pugilist or lancer), which is also one of the two classes they'll get cross-class abilities from.

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Originally Posted by Maero

While many of are still assuming there will be a class needed to unlock, which based on videos it has similar movements to pugilist and dragoon.
However has it not been said that Rogue is a completely new class of itself and Ninja will be the job so if that be the case pugilist or other classes would not be needed, maybe only for cross class abilities.
I actually think the class will have attacks that cause bleeding and other dot

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http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/122...edia-Interview Thanks to Exstal for the link on that. But yeah they have poisons and ninjutsu, and the class is seeming to be most of the damage since it will take a few moments to cast ninjutsu.

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Originally Posted by Axeus

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/122...edia-Interview Thanks to Exstal for the link on that. But yeah they have poisons and ninjutsu, and the class is seeming to be most of the damage since it will take a few moments to cast ninjutsu.

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http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/122...ted-Interviews

Bookmark this page for future possible reveals!

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

You're forgetting that every Job requires lv30 in one class (in this case, Rogue) and lv15 in another class (most likely pugilist or lancer), which is also one of the two classes they'll get cross-class abilities from.

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It's not outside the realm of possibility for the secondary class to be Thaumaturge or even Arcanist. There is precedent with Paladin and Conjurer.

If SE followed the model of a job's secondary being in a different city-state, assuming the Rogue is in Limsa that would point to Thaumaturge. However that was likely a design element meant to encourage exploration, so is possible SE might break away from that trend as well.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

It's not outside the realm of possibility for the secondary class to be Thaumaturge or even Arcanist. There is precedent with Paladin and Conjurer.

If SE followed the model of a job's secondary being in a different city-state, assuming the Rogue is in Limsa that would point to Thaumaturge. However that was likely a design element meant to encourage exploration, so is possible SE might break away from that trend as well.

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That's not right though. Paladin could cast low level white magic in other games. Ninja and Thief could not cast Black Magic.

EDIT: I was wrong. Ninja could use low level Black Magic. THE TABLE IS OPEN TO ANYTHING

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Originally Posted by dday3six

It's not outside the realm of possibility for the secondary class to be Thaumaturge or even Arcanist. There is precedent with Paladin and Conjurer.

If SE followed the model of a job's secondary being in a different city-state, assuming the Rogue is in Limsa that would point to Thaumaturge. However that was likely a design element meant to encourage exploration, so is possible SE might break away from that trend as well.

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Thm, maybe, but ACN is highly unlikely. Also, Lancer and Pugilist are in Gridania and Ul'dah respectively, so still fits the city-state thing.

Seriously, though, Arcanist makes absolutely no sense as a secondary for Ninja. Thm makes a little sense, but I can't think of anything THM would give as a cross-class that would be even remotely useful for a ninja. Even swiftcast for Mudras doesn't seem useful when you need multiple mudras to do one ninjutsu.

Didn't Yoshi-P at E3 announce that Ninja would be focusing on DEX as their primary stat? Because I remember people saying "but DEX is ranged..."

Also, hand signs are pretty quick...I assume they can be done on the go...so maybe fights with a lot of movement won't be an issue like you point out at the end of your OP.

Lastly, we definitely know Ninja will have a poison ability since in the video there's a "poison" animation, and Yoshi-P said at E3 that there's an ability that puts poison on your blades. I think that's pretty cool. Then everything you hit gets poisoned.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

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Originally Posted by Maero

While many of are still assuming there will be a class needed to unlock, which based on videos it has similar movements to pugilist and dragoon.
However has it not been said that Rogue is a completely new class of itself and Ninja will be the job so if that be the case pugilist or other classes would not be needed, maybe only for cross class abilities.
I actually think the class will have attacks that cause bleeding and other dot

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You're forgetting that every Job requires lv30 in one class (in this case, Rogue) and lv15 in another class (most likely pugilist or lancer), which is also one of the two classes they'll get cross-class abilities from.

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Not to mention Yoshi-P Himself said "Rogue is the class, Ninja is the job."

Plus it's just extremely obvious that Rogue is the "class" to the Ninja "job."

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Originally Posted by Rex

Not to mention Yoshi-P Himself said "Rogue is the class, Ninja is the job."

Plus it's just extremely obvious that Rogue is the "class" to the Ninja "job."

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Yes, just like how Pugilist is the "class" to the Monk "job", but you still need Lancer at 15 to unlock Monk.

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Originally Posted by Rex

Didn't Yoshi-P at E3 announce that Ninja would be focusing on DEX as their primary stat? Because I remember people saying "but DEX is ranged..."

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No, at E3, Yoshi recommended saving your melee DPS gear for ninja, which implies STR. It doesn't rule out DEX since most left-side melee DPS gear is also BRD gear, but melee DPS accessories are mostly str-only, with only a few pieces that had both.

People have just been assuming Rogue/Ninja will be DEX based because Rogues are dex based in a lot of games (though even there, they're often not exclusively dex based, such as in D&D which FF was based on to begin with).

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Thm, maybe, but ACN is highly unlikely. Also, Lancer and Pugilist are in Gridania and Ul'dah respectively, so still fits the city-state thing.

Seriously, though, Arcanist makes absolutely no sense as a secondary for Ninja. Thm makes a little sense, but I can't think of anything THM would give as a cross-class that would be even remotely useful for a ninja. Even swiftcast for Mudras doesn't seem useful when you need multiple mudras to do one ninjutsu.

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I threw Arcanist in there because it is possible that skills like Miasma or Bio could become cross class even if they aren't today. Those skills actually make a lot of sense for Rogue and Ninja.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

I threw Arcanist in there because it is possible that skills like Miasma or Bio could become cross class even if they aren't today. Those skills actually make a lot of sense for Rogue and Ninja.

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Conceptually, maybe, but in practicality, they don't. They're int-based spells. Rog/Nin is a melee dps, most likely str-based, possibly dex-based. Just like if you could cross-classed Aero or Blizzard II onto a Lancer or Pugilist, you won't get any significant damage out of it.

It's certainly not out of the realm of possibilities for Archer to be the level 15 required class. If they in fact do go with DEX for its primary stat then Hawk's Eye, Raging Strikes, Quelling Strikes, Venomous Bite and Straight Shot all would work very well. HE/RS are flat DPS gains as are VB and SS if maintained. VB and SS are currently cross-classable but don't have a job which makes use of them.

Furthermore in at least Final Fantasy Tactics you needed level 2 in Archer to unlock Thief and then needed level 3 in Archer and level 4 in Thief unlock Ninja (as well as 2 in Geomancer but we don't have that here). This means the continuity would be there as well.

Speaking of continuity all melee DPS jobs seem to share in using MRD as a class to draw skills from. The trend could follow suit and have them use ARC and MRD as that combination is currently not utilized for a job. If it's STR based then they'll be losing out on the full benefit HE could give though.

I think the only 3 possibilities it will use for cross-classing are PGL, ARC and MRD; some combination of them.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Conceptually, maybe, but in practicality, they don't. They're int-based spells. Rog/Nin is a melee dps, most likely str-based, possibly dex-based. Just like if you could cross-classed Aero or Blizzard II onto a Lancer or Pugilist, you won't get any significant damage out of it.

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Classes/Jobs have varying INT stats, Ninja could have a higher INT stat. Cross-class skills are rarely as potent when not used by there originating disciple. Normally skills are modified by traits, but just overall less damage could function similarly. Furthermore, we don't rightly know if Ninja wouldn't be a step toward hybrid jobs which draw their damage output from not only attack power but also magic attack power. Going only from how the game works currently is thinking in a rather limited scope, and assumes no evolution down the line.