Bards need a buff

Confirmed, Bards are a DD role... There is no such thing as a support role in this game. Brd is currently the lowest single target DD and lowest multi-target DD role in the game and we need a buff.


direct link, scroll down to post #49 : http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Updates/page5

copy and paste from #49 of the live letter:

Q48: Are there any plans to implement a new role such as buffer or debuffer?

A48: We will be sticking with our existing roles (Tank, DPS, Healer) for a while. This is mainly because the matching process is much faster and it’s easier to understand for the newer players. While we are not completely ruling this out, we are currently putting an emphasis on making the game easy to understand for the new players that may start playing the game from patch 3.0.

While i am blm more now days i would actually agree that Bard should probably get some sort of a buff.
Those melee players like to complain that they need a buff so badly but Bard and while not all that play the class but in general is the lowest dps.

Bards ARE a DD role, but they have huge support capability. It would be unfair to other DD jobs with lesser support capability if BRD did equal damage. You have to give something to get something, that is the essence of balance in MMOs.

Bards also have the highest up-time of any DD and some of the highest survivability (due to having the greatest mobility). Again, are you willing to sacrifice those to have greater DPS?

Bards who know their class through and through can compete properly against other classes. If you simply feel underpowered, I suggest you to experiment with your buffing rotation, order and priority. Practice dummy fights like T8 is a horrible example to compare. look at Titan EX, Garuda EX, T6, T9 or any other fight where you are forced to move or may waste enough time to lose your buffs (monks). In practice, bards are nowhere near bottom of the dps ladder or even far behind any other class when done properly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velox

Bards ARE a DD role, but they have huge support capability. It would be unfair to other DD jobs with lesser support capability if BRD did equal damage. You have to give something to get something, that is the essence of balance in MMOs.

Bards also have the highest up-time of any DD and some of the highest survivability (due to having the greatest mobility). Again, are you willing to sacrifice those to have greater DPS?

---

If you want to get technical. Which, I can see that you do. Lets look at all of the DD jobs....

BRDs has 4 support abilities (Ballad, Paeon, Foe, Mantra). Can deal damage on the move. low multi target dps.
SMN has 4 support abilities (Virus, Resurrection, Eye for an Eye, Physic(healing as a DD is supporting the raid)). Can deal damage on the move. High multi target dps (if they don't insta-die).
BLM has 4 support abilities ( Virus, Eye for an Eye, Physic(healing as a DD is supporting the raid), Apocatastasis). They also have Atherial and can port to safety. Can deal damage on the move. High multi target dps.
DRG has 2 support abilities (Disembowel, Mantra). Can deal damage on the move. Can also stun. Middle of the road Multi-target dps. extremely high single target dps.
MNK has 2 support abilities (Mantra, Dragon Kick). Can deal damage on the move. Can also stun. Middle of the road Multi-target dps. extremely high single target dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akesis

snip

---

That is all very true, but you are arguing quantity while I am arguing quality. When is the last time a party reserved a space for BLM because they had Apocatastasis? Or Virus, or Eye for an Eye? They are all have support utility, but are severely limited due to range, cooldown, stack debuff (prevents reuse), or a combination of these.

Mantra will not make or break a fight. Foe's Requim or Mage's Ballad can make or break a fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Bards who know their class through and through can compete properly against other classes. If you simply feel underpowered, I suggest you to experiment with your buffing rotation, order and priority. Practice dummy fights like T8 is a horrible example to compare. look at Titan EX, Garuda EX, T6, T9 or any other fight where you are forced to move or may waste enough time to lose your buffs (monks). In practice, bards are nowhere near bottom of the dps ladder or even far behind any other class when done properly.

---

Sorry, but I just lol'd this. You must not have other players in your raid who know how to play their jobs. fyi: I am a single BRD in my raid. I sing, I kite, I do everything that needs to be done. I'm not a turret... I can pull 415 on T8 and fall at the bottom of the list. I can pull 398 on T9 and yet I am the bottom of the list. My rotation is near flawless and I have spent countless hours out on a dummy. When you compare high end players with other high end players, Bards are the lowest parsing DD class and need a buff.

These threads are so stupid, the dps with the most useful support utitlity is going to be the lowest dps class. One class has to be the lowest, if your so offended at being that one, then switch.

Buff bards and make em root to shoot. Movement and damage? Nah.

I main blm and titan ex is not fun when people start dps measuring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Velox

That is all very true, but you are arguing quantity while I am arguing quality. When is the last time a party reserved a space for BLM because they had Apocatastasis? Or Virus, or Eye for an Eye? They are all have support utility, but are severely limited due to range, cooldown, stack debuff (prevents reuse), or a combination of these.

Mantra will not make or break a fight. Foe's Requim or Mage's Ballad can make or break a fight.

---

Ahh, Quality of buffs: Peaon-Junk. if your BRD sings it outside of someone dying, he/she is a fool. It is a loss of raid-wide dps. Lets throw that one away. (Down to 3 support abilities). Ballad - if your healers know what they are doing, you never need to sing it. Sure, I sing it from time to time during progression. That's about it though. lets throw that one in the "Meh" category. (Down to 2.5 support abilities). Foe - yep. its a good one, lets keep it on the list. (2.5 support abilities). You say mantra is junk. Lets take it off the list. (1.5 support abilities). This isn't a make or break number that should suffer from such an extreme gap in numbers.

I can tell you as fact... several raid groups sit BLM's for SMN's, not for their ability to do more damage on movement intensive fights. Rather, for their ability to raise people when they die. So with your "quality of abilities" theory. A BRD should pull numbers just behind a SMN who should also be at the bottom of the list, not the top.

Should I change this thread to SMN's need a nerf?

It's not even the lowest by that big of a margin.

I'd like a proper Limitbreak for Bard, please. Either single target like melee dps, or area like casters, either would be nicer to have than this healer one that's hardly ever useful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

It's not even the lowest by that big of a margin.

---

Not that big of a margin? Please show me a parse of a BRD competing with a 470-500 dps MNK. Too high? How about a 450-480 dps SMN. still too high? Now that BLM's got a buff, how about a 450+ dps BLM. no? I have seen parses of DRG's in the 450's + also. Please show me one (non photoshop) BRD pulling anywhere close to those kinds of numbers in a raid.

45 dps+ is a HUGE margin.

So you're admitting BRD can still do over 400 DPS (which would sound like blasphemy to most people). Problem?

Edit: To add...

500 DPS MNK: Only with another MNK DK'ing for them so they can Bootshine-only. Paeon probably helps (read: BRD-enabled).
450 DPS BLM: Extremely good player, and/or "inflates" numbers by using multiple Flares on well-placed add+boss. Requiem (BRD-enabled).

Link your parses. lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akesis

Not that big of a margin? Please show me a parse of a BRD competing with a 470-500 dps MNK. Too high? How about a 450-480 dps SMN. still too high? Now that BLM's got a buff, how about a 450+ dps BLM. no? I have seen parses of DRG's in the 450's + also. Please show me one (non photoshop) BRD pulling anywhere close to those kinds of numbers in a raid.

45 dps+ is a HUGE margin.

---

Of course a DRG can pull 450+DPS
If you want to do so much dps why don't you become a mnk then? unless you want to give up your usefulness you won't be getting a buff in damage.

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8...6ay1o1_250.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akesis

Ahh, Quality of buffs: Peaon-Junk ... Ballad - if your healers know what they are doing, you never need to sing it. Sure, I sing it from time to time during progression. .... Foe - yep. its a good one, lets keep it on the list. (2.5 support abilities)...."stuff about summoner rez" (to shorten the quote)

---

First to adress the bold, the vast majority of people working on SCoB are in progression parties(at least on my server), not t9 farm parties. So making dps buffon a class based on the a small percentage of the player base that is bored and wants an ego boost isn't going to happen. Also, for what possible reason do you need for a dps boost other than to say your not the bottom if your clearing the most difficult content. You could clear t8 with a group of only bard dps on the damage you're doing.

Now the other stuff:
1) Peaon's - How is this junk? Maybe I dont know, but I bard t8 sense we only need the one tank, but our monk/drg ask for Peaons' on the 3rd set of towers every time. Our group has been runing for about 8 weeks now, so some of our dps have gotten very weighted skill-speed sets atm, and dont have to option to switch around.

2) Ballad - issue adressed by the fact that it's bold, although granted our healers never ask for it now either. And before they only asked in case they died.

3) Foes - agreed it's good.

So still 3 viable options, at least for my group. But I MT everything else, so I don't always know the situation. t8 is the only turn Ive ever heard them ask for Peaons as well. Either way, my view doesnt change, bard has the most mobility, most usefull support to the majority of the player base. You can't really argue monks/drg support and "dmg while moving" when really its:
Dmg While Moving***


*** When within 3y of target

Edit cause of post limit

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kamifubuki-Yoakesetsuri

Of course a DRG can pull 450+DPS
If you want to do so much dps why don't you become a mnk then? unless you want to give up your usefulness you won't be getting a buff in damage.

---

I never once said a BRD should do more dps then a "non-useful MNK/DRG". I said that there shouldn't be such a huge difference. DD classes are DD classes. Support is support. There are no support class in this game.

15 dps is a large margin... top end FC's sit people (and sometimes discharge them) for this kind of disparity within their respective jobs. Our 1.5 "useful" support abilities are not make or break a fight good. Do they come in handy? Sure. Are they required? No. Every one of these fights are tuned to be killed without a BRD in the party. I could live with bottom of the list, sometimes in the middle because of our "usefulness". However, please justify a 45-85 dps difference between DD's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akesis

Not that big of a margin? Please show me a parse of a BRD competing with a 470-500 dps MNK. Too high? How about a 450-480 dps SMN. still too high? Now that BLM's got a buff, how about a 450+ dps BLM. no? I have seen parses of DRG's in the 450's + also. Please show me one (non photoshop) BRD pulling anywhere close to those kinds of numbers in a raid.

45 dps+ is a HUGE margin.

---

I think you're neglecting Foe's contribution to DoM in your party. Foe's can be quite a decent sustained buff if played constantly, and it is by rights attached to BRD if talking about class balance and justification for bringing a class.

Also, BRD can do pretty close to those 450s that DRG/SMN/BLM can pull if buffed with DRG. If you buff BRD DPS, discounting all their other major advantages outside of their low-ish damage not counting Foe's, DRG BRD BRD caster will become a pretty ridiculous comp and upset the current balance the DPS have, which is pretty good.

As stated above all dps jobs have utility, and their comparative dps to utility is balanced out. Throwing out the argument that ranged have to dodge less since this new round of content pretty much throws the book at them, if you want brd to do more dmg then you should also be advocating for the other dps to have the same utility as brd or closer to it.

Ie get rid of antibody for everyone
Make mnk silence 100% proc with normal diminishing returns
Make drg feight actually work on bosses

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spiritus

First to adress the bold, the vast majority of people working on SCoB are in progression parties(at least on my server), not t9 farm parties. So making dps buffon a class based on the a small percentage of the player base that is bored and wants an ego boost isn't going to happen. Also, for what possible reason do you need for a dps boost other than to say your not the bottom if your clearing the most difficult content. You could clear t8 with a group of only bard dps on the damage you're doing.

Now the other stuff:
1) Peaon's - How is this junk? Maybe I dont know, but I bard t8 sense we only need the one tank, but our monk/drg ask for Peaons' on the 3rd set of towers every time. Our group has been runing for about 8 weeks now, so some of our dps have gotten very weighted skill-speed sets atm, and dont have to option to switch around.

2) Ballad - issue adressed by the fact that it's bold, although granted our healers never ask for it now either. And before they only asked in case they died.

3) Foes - agreed it's good.

So still 3 viable options, at least for my group. But I MT everything else, so I don't always know the situation. t8 is the only turn Ive ever heard them ask for Peaons as well. Either way, my view doesnt change, bard has the most mobility, most usefull support to the majority of the player base. You can't really argue monks/drg support and "dmg while moving" when really its:
Dmg While Moving***


*** When within 3y of target

Edit cause of post limit

---

Your first point: You just said it yourself. People are playing in non-optimal gear and still progressing. In 99% of all MMO's, classes are tuned and balanced at MAX gear level at near optimal play. Progression parties have no clue what their dps can and should be. You cant have an apples-to-apples discussion about dps in a progression group there is too much RNG with who has what gear. The numbers and the discussion that I am having is based on MAX gear and near optimal play. This is the only way that you can compare jobs.

1) Paeon returns 30 tp every 5 seconds. With some math, it takes 30 seconds for your melee to gain access to 2 abilities that they would have had to wait longer to gain access to. It is roughly a 2-5 dps increase to the melee if it is sang multiple times in a fight. Foe will increase the raid's damage buy a lot more then that. Unless someone has died, Foe has priority. Your melee needs to learn how to control their TP.

2) agreed, situational at best. hints the "meh" and .5 of a usefull ability.



Both of the melee jobs have gap closers and ways to continue their dps while moving... is it optimal? no. They can however keep dps on moving mobs or have an extremely minimal down time to get to a different mob.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sleigh

I think you're neglecting Foe's contribution to DoM in your party. Foe's can be quite a decent sustained buff if played constantly, and it is by rights attached to BRD if talking about class balance and justification for bringing a class.

Also, BRD can do pretty close to those 450s that DRG/SMN/BLM can pull if buffed with DRG. If you buff BRD DPS, discounting all their other major advantages outside of their low-ish damage not counting Foe's, DRG BRD BRD caster will become a pretty ridiculous comp and upset the current balance the DPS have, which is pretty good.

---

My 45-85 dps spread between all of the jobs includes all possible buffs that can be in the party. There are only a small handful of bards who have ever posted above 415 dps and those numbers usually include a second BRD in the group as well as a drg. I will ask it to a second person. Please link me a parse of a BRD doing close to 450 dps. By close I mean 445+ in a raid, not a 2 min parse on a dummy. I know personally, I have never seen one over 420... no where near 450-500 dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akesis

If you want to get technical. Which, I can see that you do. Lets look at all of the DD jobs....

BRDs has 4 support abilities (Ballad, Paeon, Foe, Mantra). Can deal damage on the move. low multi target dps.
SMN has 4 support abilities (Virus, Resurrection, Eye for an Eye, Physic(healing as a DD is supporting the raid)). Can deal damage on the move. High multi target dps (if they don't insta-die).
BLM has 4 support abilities ( Virus, Eye for an Eye, Physic(healing as a DD is supporting the raid), Apocatastasis). They also have Atherial and can port to safety. Can deal damage on the move. High multi target dps.
DRG has 2 support abilities (Disembowel, Mantra). Can deal damage on the move. Can also stun. Middle of the road Multi-target dps. extremely high single target dps.
MNK has 2 support abilities (Mantra, Dragon Kick). Can deal damage on the move. Can also stun. Middle of the road Multi-target dps. extremely high single target dps.

---

BRD can silence (hi T2), has a good burst (don't tell me the opposite) and can deal FULL DAMAGE on the move and is ranged. Seriously, telling us "BLM can deal damage on the move" is a big joke, you're making it sounds like if the fights where you need to move a lot doesn't change anything. Stuns are useless in the new coil.

@Akesis : please, control their TP ? Seriously ?

Bard needs love. All we ever got was a nerf.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alcyon1

BRD can silence (hi T2), has a good burst (don't tell me the opposite) and can deal FULL DAMAGE on the move and is ranged. Seriously, telling us "BLM can deal damage on the move" is a big joke, you're making it sounds like if the fights where you need to move a lot doesn't change anything. Stuns are useless in the new coil.

---

A MNK could solo silence T2. It took 2 BRDs, 1 BRD 1 PLD or 2 PLD to get them without a MNK. Not as useful as a MNK on that fight now is it? Thank you for adding to my point, I had forgotten about that example. The BRD can do "full damage while running around" argument is almost as bad as BRDs are a support class. Even with running around the entire fight a BLM who knows what they are doing with their job will out parse a BRD by 45+ dps with their new buff. DRGs and MNKs can both run around the mob like idiots the whole fight and I don't hear you mentioning them needing a nerf for movement.

Sure BRD does good burst. Amazing on a raid boss that isn't dead within the first 2 mins? BLM's burst is the highest in the game. SMNs burst can be higher also (situational of course) but, it can still be higher.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...60-8864152835-

Bard is the only job with instant burst. Everything else has wind up. All bard does is pop cds

Bards are fine.. Yes maybe a monk does 80-90 dps more on t8 which is like hitting a dummy. But in EVERY other Turn Bards are way closer, although we're still last. If any class with comparable gear is lower than a Bard in any of the 4 Turns he's doing something wrong (sometimes it can be just fucking up your rotation even once that let's you drop below a bard).

But still with all the Utility we have it's fine. We will always have a safe spot in raids because of this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akesis

I can pull 398 on T9 and yet I am the bottom of the list.

---

I would like to see a parse of that. :P Either that's a typo or you forget to add that this wasn't a kill attempt :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akesis

15 dps is a large margin... top end FC's sit people (and sometimes discharge them) for this kind of disparity within their respective jobs.

---

Top FCs also know what which class is cappable of with the gear the people have. :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sleigh

Also, BRD can do pretty close to those 450s that DRG/SMN/BLM can pull if buffed with DRG.

---

EDIT: uhm yeah i was wrong here, a bard can get to 450 with a DRG in the group. My bad :x


TL;DR: Bards are fine, stop crying.


P.S.: Even if i say Bards are are fine i wouldn't mind if we get a buff :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Askarya

If you count in the contirbution to other classes from Foes we get higher. Without that nope a Bard won't get the 450 that easily, maybe in t8 with full BiS and a second Bard which handles the songs, otherwise no. never.

---

If you're going to count Foe damage toward BRD, you have to subtract out Disembowel damage and give it back to DRG. Otherwise you're just being inconsistent. Pretty sure that takes us back below 450, no?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akesis

I can pull 398 on T9 and yet I am the bottom of the list.

---

You could have had me until this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

If you're going to count Foe damage toward BRD, you have to subtract out Disembowel damage and give it back to DRG. Otherwise you're just being inconsistent. Pretty sure that takes us back below 450, no?

---

Depends, if everyone is BiS and wouuld play perfectly we would still be over 450. A BRD is able to reach more than 400 if he doesn't need to sing paeon even without a DRG (assuming BiS gear ofc). Also assuming that you can use all your mp on Foes and don't need to sing anything else, the Boost for a BLM should be somewhere around 50-60 (you should theoretically be able to sing 3-4 times, 2 times voiced) maybe even a bit. Obviously you can also min-max this by trying to pair your voice with Buffs of the BLM etc.

I was pretty sceptical about 400+ DPS BRDs initially but after checking around with one of our FC's main team's BRD (Tonberry server 2nd T9 kill team), with ilvl110 BiS (High Allagan Bow) the max he can pull is 445, albiet that's a total 35% critical hit rate which is slightly higher than the average at around 24-25%

I'm running on Artemis Bow Novus (HA bow hasn't dropped for me) with two non BiS pieces (waiting for T8 pants and choker, never seen one for 10 weeks?) and 400 DPS is possible without DRG's debuff so far.

Just a point for all BRDs to note, when you compare numbers, compare it with similar amount of swings (aka number of hits) and with a similar critical hit rate. For example, compare parses over the same amount of minutes and seconds so that the number of attacks are within 3 hits of each other or so, and of course, comparable crit hit rate. No point comparing a parse where A's total average crit is 24% and the other chap is 35%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Akesis

A MNK could solo silence T2. It took 2 BRDs, 1 BRD 1 PLD or 2 PLD to get them without a MNK.

---

Congratulations, a MNK can silence the whole T2 :) Now, let's compare the DPS between a MNK silencing and a BRD who isn't :)

Quote:

---

The BRD can do "full damage while running around" argument is almost as bad as BRDs are a support class. Even with running around the entire fight a BLM who knows what they are doing with their job will out parse a BRD by 45+ dps with their new buff.

---

Yeah, with the buff on 2s casts :)

Quote:

---

Sure BRD does good burst. Amazing on a raid boss that isn't dead within the first 2 mins?

---

Short DPS checks.

Bard is a support DD, not a pure DD. SE already had to nerf them because of the whole moving and dps'ing thing so that nothing interrupted their moves. Also, a good rotation and you're still doing appreciable damage. Bards don't need a buff, they need you to realize they aren't pure dps and learn to utilize your support abilities to assist others. Your goal is to make everyone else better at their job, also you can GET a buff if you have a dragoon in the party doing their job which also allows others to do better as well!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ooshima

I'm running on Artemis Bow Novus (HA bow hasn't dropped for me) with two non BiS pieces (waiting for T8 pants and choker, never seen one for 10 weeks?)

---

I feel your pain. Although i have both of them on my alt -.-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ooshima

Just a point for all BRDs to note, when you compare numbers, compare it with similar amount of swings (aka number of hits) and with a similar critical hit rate. For example, compare parses over the same amount of minutes and seconds so that the number of attacks are within 3 hits of each other or so, and of course, comparable crit hit rate. No point comparing a parse where A's total average crit is 24% and the other chap is 35%.

---

The Duration time... yes it should be around the same time, a different swing amount can come from fucking up your rotation OR from a different atkspeed on the weapon so you should still compare it if it has the same duration.
And you also should compare it if the critrate is different. Why? 1. That way you can see what could be the best and the worst case, this information isn't absolutely necessary but always nice to know. 2. Difference in critical hit rate. If those 2 have different gear (even if it's only 1 or 2 pieces) it can have a huge impact on the critrate.

Just going to chime in since some bards clearly don't seem to understand what the archetype of a mobile all instant ability ranged spec brings to the table. You're going to have much more damage on high mobility fights due to being unable to cast, you suffer slightly less dps on patchwerk since your dps is balanced around your strength of sustaining a full rotation while running around and doing 360 no scopes.

Less of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDjRUNf91cc and more utilising your class properly :).

Lol are people really advertising their parses ON THE FORUMS?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yoninxi

Lol are people really advertising their parses ON THE FORUMS?

---

I know, it's great isn't it? Nothing like a good bait thread to get people banned.

4 of the Bards 5 abilities are support abilities.

Seems like a support job for a DPS class to me. Maybe you should ask for a DD job for the Archer class?

Edit: oops, referenced LB as a bard thing. Archer should have a DPS LB imho but it doesn't (yet.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jandor

4 of the Bards 5 abilities are support abilities and they have the healer LB.

Seems like a support job for a DPS class to me. Maybe you should ask for a DD job for the Archer class?

---

YES! Finally someone said it! I take bard strictly as support, it has DD capabilities but still low damage output. Now, my idea as always been that archer should get a full dd focused job. Ranger or something, that focus on damage 100% of the time. It's gonna be hard to pull though, balancing it with archers flexible movement but I'm pretty sure it can be done.