This needs to stop !

WHM speaking ,

Running through the Stone Vigil , I was attempting to level my WHM due to the grinding of fates I figured I'd run through some Dungeons for a quick break. Lineup as set a PLD geared high , probably around the i95ish range and three sub 50 players including myself.

I'm all for ''speed'' runs and what not but passing up MOBS due to you not needing anything is pretty absurd throughout the game, even as me being the MT I ask everyone in the party if EXP is needed.

The Tank proceeds through the Dungeon passing up mobs , and potential good loot ( I know that the loot isn't any good after another two levels) but what about the newer players ? They're DPS so they are deprived of content or EXP all because a Tank doesn't wanna take time to kill a mob in all it would add another 10 mins to the dungeon killing the ''extra'' mobs.
If you are a tank how do you handle these situations .....me personally as a Mage I stop healing and tell the tank to go back or we vote !

No one is obliged to go through every single room in a dungeon if they just want to get their roulette tomes and be out.
However if someone asks "can we go back to X room to get treasure?" I go sure and go back.
If no one says anything, I will just go the direct route to bosses and skip most side rooms.

In regards to stone vigil, most of the side rooms are full of crafting pieces that most people don't care for anyway.
Remember, in DF you're at the mercy of random players so if you want a fool proof "we must kill every guy in the dungeon" party,start a PF group.

Totally see your point

''No one is obliged to go through every single room in a dungeon if they just want to get their roulette tomes and be out.''

But gaining EXP and ''exploring'' the dungeon is part of the whole experience , and speaking for the sub 50 players that couldn't object they were DPS who could easily be replaced in the add new member. All I'm asking for is unselfish and self centered tanks.

When told to go back I was told to comply with how things were going because ''IM THE ****ING TANK"

-______________-

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

me personally as a Mage I stop healing and tell the tank to go back or we vote !

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This is usually how I handle it when healing, as my word carries a little more weight. Had a similar problem in Haukke Manor last week that I got with low-level roulette. The tank was decked out in i100+ gear so I just assumed he rouletted as well, but there was a BLM in the party that barely had iLevel gear for the dungeon. She politely asked if we could kill all the mobs for exp and chests for gear, of which I had no problem with. The tank bitched that he just wanted to get it done fast and refused to pull the extra mobs or grab any extra key. Eventually I got fed up and told him I refused to heal him unless we slowed down for the newbie. He got pissed and after 10 seconds of standing idle he just abandoned the dungeon. After he left the BLM told me the tank tried to vote dismiss me, but the DPS both rejected it, which was why he decided to ragequit instead. I apologized that it lead to that happening because we had to wait for a new tank. The DPS didn't seem to mind and we got a new tank in about 2 minutes who was totally cool with going after the extra mobs and loot.

After we downed Amandine, the BLM thanked me a lot for standing up to the tank. It felt good to be able to help out someone new like that. We need more people in-game willing to stick up for the newbies who are just trying to get by.

As a tank, any time I've ever run into a person first doing the dungeon, I make it known I'm going to help them map the place - ie, every room's going to be explored.

If it's no one's first time on low level, it's rare I go through every place unless asked. At which point I do. Doesn't bother me. If I don't have the time for it, I don't do low level roulette.

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

If you are a tank how do you handle these situations .....me personally as a Mage I stop healing and tell the tank to go back or we vote !

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I am a tank.

I have a few different "default" phases while running a duty roulette.

1. If anyone is not-level-synced... then I try to do a full clear (as much as I can remember, anyway... I don't have all the dungeons memorized quite yet :))

2. If everyone is level-synced... then I start to skip side-treasure/mobs but I'll pause after just passing them to see if anyone else starts to go towards the side-stuff and looks all hopeful. If so... then I revert back to doing a full clear. If not... then I run the rest of the dungeon as fast as possible. Well, I still try to keep an eye out to see if anyone starts to go down a side-route or anything... but less so.

Leading isn't about doing what you want and just giving directions.
Leading is about organizing your team to help them out. What "helps them out" is for them to decide. Other players are people, not a bunch of NPCs.

I'm usually pretty open minded about this. I've been tanking a lot recently (just got my Bravura yesterday), and I really enjoy it. I leveled up almost exclusively using the low-level roulette feature. I ended up running some dungeons (Tam-Tara, Toto-Rak, Haukke, and Cutter's Cry) a LOT. Some dungeons I still haven't run on WAR. However, I got to know that handful of dungeons really well. I was still leveling, so I was getting the exp for all the mob kills, but I was SO TIRED of running those 4 dungeons top to bottom. It got to the point where in the beginning of the dungeon, I would ask if anyone wanted to kill all the mobs or if they didn't mind skipping enemies that weren't needed to complete the dungeon. If someone said they wanted the exp, then I'd go through the whole place and kill everything. Or if I forgot to ask in the beginning and someone mentioned something, that was cool, too. I'd go back.

No, this doesn’t need to be stopped. I think a lot of you are forgetting that this is a MMORPG. The tank has the most responsibilities; He leads the group, decides when to engage, and controls the pace of the run. They are responsible for the survival of the group, so the tank should always get the last say so in how to run a dungeon rather his pug likes it or not. Tanks are already stressed out enough by their jobs. If they don’t want to honor one of your requests, please stop demanding that they play the way you want them to. They are not obligated to help you do anything.

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Eventually I got fed up and told him I refused to heal him

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The exact same thing happened to me as well. Halfway through Brayflox I get blackmailed with no heals by my pug. Apparently some noob on their FC wanted to complete their Infantry set. After putting up with their harassment we get to the third boss fight. I tanked Aiatar so that I was right outside the lockout zone while the boss was inside of the lockout line. I get myself locked out and watch as my entire team gets curb stumped by Aiatar. That’s how tanks should deal with these kind of people, they are annoying to no end.

As a healer, I refuse to heal tanks that refuse requests to kill mobs.
As a tank, I refuse to ignore extra mobs that another player asked me to get.
As a DPS I really can't do much other than assist in a vote kick or offer /support x.x

What Cold Raven said - if someone isn't level capped, I do the whole place (assuming tanking). Except, if that person isn't pulling their weight (afk/distracted) then I just work towards the end, skip mobs/treasure/etc.

I believe both are at fault assuming that majority of the party agreed to going through all the areas. The healer held the party hostage by not healing the tank and the tank should've listened to the majority and dealt with the few extra min doin the optional stuff

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Originally Posted by Yuki_Tokita

They are responsible for the survival of the group, so the tank should always get the last say so in how to run a dungeon rather his pug likes it or not.

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Yeah. . . I offered to help 2 FC mates run Brayflox HM (I don't like running it, and since I'm not trying to get an Animus/Novus weapon, I have no need to speed run it), and upon entering, I - the tank - told the one random person with us "FYI, this won't be a speed run.". . . He proceeds to have a problem with it and say "this dungeon is for speed-running" and "you're a troll". I respond with, "If you wanted to SR, I understand and no hard feelings if you want to leave, but I'm NOT going to speed run this."

After getting into it with the 1 out of 4 party members who actually WANTED to speed run, it got so bothersome that I myself decided to leave. And remember, I was the tank this time.

. . .So what was that part about the tank controlling the pace of the run? Because clearly, that didn't seem to fly. And to be honest, I wouldn't expect it to. That pretty much played out like I thought it would.

Also, I'm calling BS on the "Tanks are already stressed out about their jobs". First off, if tanking stresses someone out, they probably shouldn't be a tank. Hell, if playing a game stresses you out, then you're simply forgetting the entire reason people play games - to have FUN. To kill the rebuttal now: I started as a tank. It got boring fast. I DPS and heal, and find it more fun. More engaging. I'll still tank every now and then, and I personally throw myself at harder content, so don't assume fun = "he must be a casual". Not in the least.

Beyond that, and ESPECIALLY since I am/was a tank, I challenge this sense of grandeur and near-dictatorship some tanks have. I said it before and I'll say it again: Shields, axes, and armor don't make a tank. The mindset to protect your TEAM, mitigate threats, and adapt to the situation is what makes a tank.

You may lead, but any leader that disregards his team in favor of his own whims or thinks himself greater than the whole won't be a leader or keep a team very long.

A lot of misconceptions regarding party dynamics found in this thread; let's clear this up:

Tank
Has near total control regarding maximum pace of the party, but very little control over minimum pace of the party.
The tank decides whether this will be a speed run or not, and how extreme the speed run is.
However, the tank's damage output is low, usually <1/6 a good party's total output.

Healer
Has most of the control regarding minimum pace of the party, and also some control over the maximum pace of the party.
If the healer does put out damage, this will be a fast run, regardless of the other party members. (Note: Since dungeons are designed with 0 healer damage output, healer's damage output is very significant when others aren't doing a lot of damage)
Also, a lot of content just cannot be done without a co-operative healer. On the other hand, a geared and experienced healer can cover for the tank for all 4-man content.

DPS
Has some control over both maximum and minumum pace of the party.
Even if both the attackers are very good at what they do, they are limited by the tank actually deciding to speed run or not; and if they are not that good, an attacking healer can sort of cover for them.

It's pretty obvious who has the most control over the party here: The healer. Seriously, they can hold the party hostage anytime. It will be completely impossible to do anything if there are no other casters in the party (BLM and SMN).

So, why are tanks given the role to lead the party? Respect. Simple as that. Everyone's answer to this thread can be boiled down to this, "Do you respect the tradition that dictates tanks lead?"

Personally:
I always run healer for low level roulettes: Control minimum pace.
While I always get into a party of 2 (preferably tank and healer) for high level roulettes. Fun fact: By running high level roulettes in a party of 2 (or 3), you have absolute control over the party (you want to /manderville for a full minute after every successful kill, you got it). Just fire the vote kick first and you'll definately have your way (in a group of 3, you can even torture all the people who joined in-progress). Pretty disturbing, huh?

Usually i ask party if they want kill trash/ check every room , BUT if i need to rush , i will rush w/o asking or just leave.

Extra trash in stone vigil is just a pain. Even when leveling I'd opt to skip trash in there. It just isn't worth the effort to kill even for the exp.

This really just seems like a situation of "I want something because I feel its best for me and somebody wants something else because its best for them, but I should get my way."

Keep in mind that if it is a lvl50 doing roulette for tomes or running a low lvl dungeon for a book, they are going want to be in and out as quickly as possible because, well grinding for that stuff can be tedious and nobody really wants to stretch it out any more than they have to.

However if someone in the group is new to a dungeon or asks if they can do a full clear, whatever high lvls be it the tank or whoever, should be willing to help them out and do the full clear, as long as they are polite about it.

Now, IMO killing all the mobs is not necessarily the most effective way to get xp. I find doing multiple quick runs to be more productive for getting drops and xp than more drawn out full clears. If you need or want the achievement for mapping a dungeon, that is a different story and totally valid.

Speaking specifically about Stone Vigil, I feel the side rooms are really not worth it. They aren't necessary for the achievement and the chests in them tend to have junk loot in them that isn't worth the inventory space they take up. Worn chef's apron ... um, no thanks. As to the xp that would be gained by killing these mobs, I stick to my previous statement that multiple quick clears are more productive than longer full clears.

Lastly, if you want to do a dungeon in one specific way, that is what the Party Finder is for. If you are using the Duty Finder, you really need to just adjust to what situation you end up with and what the majority of the group you ended up with wants. This goes both ways, don't force speed runs and don't force full clears, appraise the situation and if in doubt ask what the group would like or be okay with.

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Originally Posted by ZhycranaDranix

Snip.

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There is one chest in Stone Vigil that offers "good loot" that is optional and that's right after killing the first boss. The other chest(s) that got skipped are nothing but crafting mats stuck behind a few mobs that honestly aren't worth killing. As far as I remember you get the mapping achievement without even having to engage the mobs in either of those rooms (just walk up the stairs for the first and run right by the second).

What really needs to stop is this epidemic where people feel they're entitled to have everything their way in a group regardless of what the majority wants. You're in a Duty Finder 4/8-person dungeon and 3/7 want to do a speed run? Majority wins. Don't like it you can leave and not act like a child. Same situation and 3/7 of the 4/8 people want to take it slow? Same deal.

If nobody else voiced a concern with skipping 5 or so monsters then what is the big deal? If losing the EXP from those few monsters is the biggest crisis you face then I really wish I lived in your world.

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Originally Posted by Tyrial

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Then you should be able to vote kick yourself out of the dungeon without taking a penalty. Just because the majority wants to do a SR doesn't mean I have to and it doesn't mean I should take a penalty because I don't want to SR.

Normally I end up just doing the SR but it has led to me ensuring I'm on certain jobs for certain roulettes due to not liking doing SRs of brayflox on certain jobs (I've done it on every job I have I just prefer if I'm going to SR with randoms to be on some jobs over others.)

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Originally Posted by Yuki_Tokita

Tanks are already stressed out enough by their jobs. If they don’t want to honor one of your requests, please stop demanding that they play the way you want them to. They are not obligated to help you do anything.

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Don't know what game you're playing, but tanking in FFXIV stressful? lol, newp. Tanked everything as WAR and PLD outside second coil, and tanking is, in most fights, the easiest role. Even our main tank in SCoB jokes that they have the easiest role in t6-8 (we havnt done 9 yet so no comment on that).

Tanking stressfull in FFXIV? Far from it.

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Originally Posted by Yuki_Tokita

The tank has the most responsibilities; He leads the group, decides when to engage, and controls the pace of the run. They are responsible for the survival of the group, so the tank should always get the last say so in how to run a dungeon rather his pug likes it or not. Tanks are already stressed out enough by their jobs. If they don’t want to honor one of your requests, please stop demanding that they play the way you want them to. They are not obligated to help you do anything.

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This attitude. I tanked a long time in WoW and let me say tanks usually have one of the easiest jobs. It only becomes hard when they're the defacto raid leader/caller/coach/babysitter because the job is generally that braindead the tank is usually given as many extra roles as possible since the healers and DPS generally have to concentrate.

It becomes hard when you're trying to have raid-wide vision, while watching timers, and rotating your own cooldowns. Beyond that the job doesn't get any more complex between pressing your personal CDs at the right time, maintaining threat, and moving out of a few cones.

Sometimes if you have to kite, manage some mechanic, or pick up a lot of mobs it can be pretty stressful, but typical dungeon face roll stuff? I dunno. We are going to have people doing sub 4 minute Brayflox myth runs once they get geared in the next patch, there's nothing hard about that content.

As Tank i don't bother at all with any extra room's. I don't open chests or loot anything at all. I run trough the dungeon to get it done and without the low level Duty Roulette the run would not even happen. If a DD/Healer thinks they have to pull mobs out of those rooms i wont take them of them >.> and ask them if they are done and we can go on. Same with Main Scenario Roulette, i will not wait for people who watch CS, i wont tell them to stop watching. They can watch but not gonna wait xD.

As healer i follow the tank.
As DD same as healer.

I will clear the whole dungeon's trash mobs if other players ask for it otherwise I am just going to skip anything that is possible. Also Stone Vigil has crap for loot it's just vanity stuff mostly except for bosses.

If there's anyone not-50 in my lowbie roulette, I'll ask if the group wants to kill everything or skip stuff. Sometimes people who are actually there for XP don't mind skipping mobs, or the level 50 people don't mind sticking around longer to help the lowbie. It doesn't take long at all to just ask.

Most of the time there's someone who doesn't reply; I assume they don't care. If there are any disagreements, I go with majority vote. My own vote doesn't count (though tbh I prefer it to go as quick as possible, too >.>). The only time I'll hustle the group without regard for their XP wishes is if we're running out of time or if, or whatever weird reason, I decided to queue really close to maintenance.

Healer has the most control over the party.
As ppl know dps are just sheeps and will follow/ support whoever appears to be the stronger player.
It's tank vs healer more than half the time.
A healer/dps can tank a mob one by one easily.
So imo if a tank isn't pulling more than 1 mob then they aren't really living up to their role as a tank.
As a healer with a lot of experience in skipping mobs/ sleep reseting emnity/ lockouts/ kiting / and tanking as a healer, i can say that at the current state of dungeons; healers can tank everything easily.
I'm a 6.4k hp healer so wtf do i give a damn if the tank decides to throw a fit lol. That just means more commendations for me.

I love conflict in random duties. I am kind of a jerk but I know many people who act the same at some point or another. Even the people to judge me and cuss me out even if i politely say no will eventually act the same way.. but basically
-If damage on mobs isn't up to par with the make up or gear of party I won't do extra things since that alone can take a 20 minute run to a 30...
-Anyone pulls, I don't take hate
-Anyone threatens no heals then I keep going.. you are wasting more time by fighting me than just going along..
-If my actions lead to a kick then cool I get to re-queue while you wait for a tank.. and I might even be done before you get one.

I am polite at first but to save stress I do not deal with bologna.. real world calls to me and I need to manage my time the best I can..

If I am dps I follow tank - if he moves fast and avoid mobs I follow, if he enter every single room and clear everything I follow. I have very low level healer but same rules applied to heal runs also.
If I am tank and join a dungeon I have done 100+ times through low level roulette then I will most likely kill only mobs directly in may way to last boss unless all 3 party members are clearly doing the dungeon for exp.
I have to admit that OP sounds like a dik to me though and in tank's place I would have kept rushing to last boss - if the touched healer would vote me out it still would be less stressful. If he wouldn't vote but just kept complaining I would simply leave and craft/gather something for half an hour.

When I tank I usually skip non-essential mobs unless someone asks to take them.

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Originally Posted by dehlert

I love conflict in random duties. I am kind of a jerk but I know many people who act the same at some point or another. Even the people to judge me and cuss me out even if i politely say no will eventually act the same way.. but basically

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Well as long as you engage in some mental acrobatics to justify your awful video game behavior that certainly excuses you. Look, you're right, you're a jerk and so is everyone else in this thread who makes a big deal about a couple extra minutes in a dungeon. Either you are too much of a coward to be a jerk in real life and use this game as a guilty pleasure, or you're a jerk outside of the game too. Either way, you're a jerk and there is no excuse for it. Your behavior is bad and you should feel bad about it.

You're just trying to pass off your egotism and vanity as some sort of no-nonsense virtuousness born of a wildly busy and successful life. Yes you can save minutes in dungeons by skipping mobs. If your life is so DENSE that pulling extra rooms is NEGATIVELY EFFECTING THE REAL WORLD then you don't have the time for MMOs. Of course that's not true and you finish your rushed run to go spam emotes in Mor Dhona for a few hours.

I honestly don't know why some people are so obsessed with pretending those few minutes of their life are so valuable, but I hope you all realize you only think that time is valuable because you're jerks. So it's not that you want to finish dungeons swiftly and that makes you a jerk, you're a jerk and you want to finish dungeons as fast as possible because you have an unrealistic value of your own time. So this is just a symptom of your underlying jerkishness.

If someone asks, sure, I'll go through all the trash.
But if no one says anything, too bad, going through like a train.

The problem here is that Square Enix is forcing players who are level 50 and have manymanymany things to do, to go back and do leveling content.

I understand the reasoning but many people who are at "endgame" have so much to do as it is, asking them spend 40 minuets+ in a dungeon where all they get is a 1 Animus book kill from the final boss only or a few tomes when .. you need:

27 boss kills, and 13,500 myth of which only consistutes for 10 item levels on just your weapon, i'm sorry to say, that no, most tanks, dps, or healers will want to spend forever killing mobs that take that much more time.

I dont mind the animus books but many people do and this was honestly not a very good approach at all to force people to revisit dead content simply because there is literally no reward to revisit it for reasons besides one boss kill. If each mob had a chance at dropping an Alexandrite, or another Atma, or something worth while you can bet your butt they'd be killing every single mob. Since that isnt the case then, yes you are going go have issues like this.

I love the ego tanks have.
As a Scholar main, I can and will let shitty tanks die until they leave. That Dragoon sitting in the back with Int Accessories made the better tank anyway.

Protip: If you skipped treasure chests during a dungeon and you want the loot, at the end of the run when everyone else leaves the dungeon, go back and death run to the chests you want. Since you're the only one there you get all the loot.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

*snip*

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Oh cry me a river, you can just mythflox farm. If you're doing roulettes instead of Mythflox as a tank you JUST DON'T CARE ABOUT SPEED.

EDIT: Kind of hammered this out in a dungeon I mean I guess I get the point for books but I don't think that's a lot of it. I've just seen this attitude out of people in so many games, especially MMOs. There are so many egomaniac tanks out there who let their King of Duty Finder status go to their head. It's not that DPS can't be as nasty as speed. Though we have just as many DPS getting their books significantly slower and you don't see threads about DPS refusing to DPS extra rooms that got pulled.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Oh cry me a river, you can just mythflox farm. If you're doing roulettes instead of Mythflox as a tank you JUST DON'T CARE ABOUT SPEED.

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OH get your facts straight. I made sure to say Animus books in my post. So i'm not doing roulettes for myth genius i'm having to do low level for the book.. please read next time you try to insult someone.

Yeah well, I mean I guess we can pretend these people were great bastions of the community until the Animus pushed them over the edge.

Also gee I wonder if you could just find a bunch of i90+ people on your own server doing the same dungeons. Wouldn't that be convenient? I mean I'm sure there wouldn't be anyone else doing the same dungeons, pretend I never said that.

I mean I'm sorry I glossed over your mentioning Animus but it's an even MORE bullshit point than Myth. I mean ONE out of THREE dungeons are going to be low level anyway, so let's correct your nonsensical 27 to 9(EDIT: I'm actually looking for a list for this because I don't remember, but it felt like it was always one Expert, High Level, and Low Level roulette's worth, either way it's lower than 27). Or I guess we can continue to PRETEND people in this thread are upset about skipping chests in Pharos. So out of your ENTIRE ANIMUS GRIND we're talking maybe an extra hour and a half?

The only issue causing tanks to behave this way is them, end of discussion.

if they ask nicely i am more than happy to do full runs...as long as its not stone vigil >.>. it's not just tanks though, df in general just sucks. they really need to make all roullettes group-able already.

think of the other persons view~

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

Whining about how your time is more important and you should be rewarded for helping the lowly people level jobs.

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please don't attempt to speak for everyone at end game. Not everyone is as self entitled as you come off.

If your time really is that important that you just want to run through the dungeon then create a party of other level 50 players and do it that way. If you do it through DF then you are going to get people who are still trying to level. Refusing to help them is kind of a dick move. Doubly so if you manage to get it through roulettes.

As a tank, I'm happy to go speed run or full clear if my party wants it, and I'll explain bosses and mechanics and stuff aforehand.

Way I figure it, I'm not a tank for me, I'm a tank for you. :3

When I usually do the Roulette Low, and somebody asks to kill every mob in the dungeon, I don't really mind, it fells nostalgic, going back and do things I was doing while struggling to get to lv 50 xD

Still, it happened to find rude people that would complain if a low level player wants the exp in that dungeon..

I was in a party with a Scholar who would ignore the low level tank and aggro everything because "come one I want to do T5 after".

I feel sorry for low level player, and I tempt to adapt my play based on their experience in the dungeon...
If a tank is new, as a BLM I don't use aoes or I sleep mobs if they are more than 3...