This needs to stop !

[ZhycranaDranix]

WHM speaking ,

Running through the Stone Vigil , I was attempting to level my WHM due to the grinding of fates I figured I'd run through some Dungeons for a quick break. Lineup as set a PLD geared high , probably around the i95ish range and three sub 50 players including myself.

I'm all for ''speed'' runs and what not but passing up MOBS due to you not needing anything is pretty absurd throughout the game, even as me being the MT I ask everyone in the party if EXP is needed.

The Tank proceeds through the Dungeon passing up mobs , and potential good loot ( I know that the loot isn't any good after another two levels) but what about the newer players ? They're DPS so they are deprived of content or EXP all because a Tank doesn't wanna take time to kill a mob in all it would add another 10 mins to the dungeon killing the ''extra'' mobs.
If you are a tank how do you handle these situations .....me personally as a Mage I stop healing and tell the tank to go back or we vote !

[Nukocafe]

No one is obliged to go through every single room in a dungeon if they just want to get their roulette tomes and be out.
However if someone asks "can we go back to X room to get treasure?" I go sure and go back.
If no one says anything, I will just go the direct route to bosses and skip most side rooms.

In regards to stone vigil, most of the side rooms are full of crafting pieces that most people don't care for anyway.
Remember, in DF you're at the mercy of random players so if you want a fool proof "we must kill every guy in the dungeon" party,start a PF group.

[ZhycranaDranix]

Totally see your point

''No one is obliged to go through every single room in a dungeon if they just want to get their roulette tomes and be out.''

But gaining EXP and ''exploring'' the dungeon is part of the whole experience , and speaking for the sub 50 players that couldn't object they were DPS who could easily be replaced in the add new member. All I'm asking for is unselfish and self centered tanks.

When told to go back I was told to comply with how things were going because ''IM THE ****ING TANK"

-______________-

[Velox]

me personally as a Mage I stop healing and tell the tank to go back or we vote !

This is usually how I handle it when healing, as my word carries a little more weight. Had a similar problem in Haukke Manor last week that I got with low-level roulette. The tank was decked out in i100+ gear so I just assumed he rouletted as well, but there was a BLM in the party that barely had iLevel gear for the dungeon. She politely asked if we could kill all the mobs for exp and chests for gear, of which I had no problem with. The tank bitched that he just wanted to get it done fast and refused to pull the extra mobs or grab any extra key. Eventually I got fed up and told him I refused to heal him unless we slowed down for the newbie. He got pissed and after 10 seconds of standing idle he just abandoned the dungeon. After he left the BLM told me the tank tried to vote dismiss me, but the DPS both rejected it, which was why he decided to ragequit instead. I apologized that it lead to that happening because we had to wait for a new tank. The DPS didn't seem to mind and we got a new tank in about 2 minutes who was totally cool with going after the extra mobs and loot.

After we downed Amandine, the BLM thanked me a lot for standing up to the tank. It felt good to be able to help out someone new like that. We need more people in-game willing to stick up for the newbies who are just trying to get by.

[AlrikRouge]

As a tank, any time I've ever run into a person first doing the dungeon, I make it known I'm going to help them map the place - ie, every room's going to be explored.

If it's no one's first time on low level, it's rare I go through every place unless asked. At which point I do. Doesn't bother me. If I don't have the time for it, I don't do low level roulette.

[Cold_Raven]

If you are a tank how do you handle these situations .....me personally as a Mage I stop healing and tell the tank to go back or we vote !

I am a tank.

I have a few different "default" phases while running a duty roulette.

1. If anyone is not-level-synced... then I try to do a full clear (as much as I can remember, anyway... I don't have all the dungeons memorized quite yet )

2. If everyone is level-synced... then I start to skip side-treasure/mobs but I'll pause after just passing them to see if anyone else starts to go towards the side-stuff and looks all hopeful. If so... then I revert back to doing a full clear. If not... then I run the rest of the dungeon as fast as possible. Well, I still try to keep an eye out to see if anyone starts to go down a side-route or anything... but less so.

Leading isn't about doing what you want and just giving directions.
Leading is about organizing your team to help them out. What "helps them out" is for them to decide. Other players are people, not a bunch of NPCs.

[NaliaBrown]

I'm usually pretty open minded about this. I've been tanking a lot recently (just got my Bravura yesterday), and I really enjoy it. I leveled up almost exclusively using the low-level roulette feature. I ended up running some dungeons (Tam-Tara, Toto-Rak, Haukke, and Cutter's Cry) a LOT. Some dungeons I still haven't run on WAR. However, I got to know that handful of dungeons really well. I was still leveling, so I was getting the exp for all the mob kills, but I was SO TIRED of running those 4 dungeons top to bottom. It got to the point where in the beginning of the dungeon, I would ask if anyone wanted to kill all the mobs or if they didn't mind skipping enemies that weren't needed to complete the dungeon. If someone said they wanted the exp, then I'd go through the whole place and kill everything. Or if I forgot to ask in the beginning and someone mentioned something, that was cool, too. I'd go back.

[Yuki_Tokita]

No, this doesn’t need to be stopped. I think a lot of you are forgetting that this is a MMORPG. The tank has the most responsibilities; He leads the group, decides when to engage, and controls the pace of the run. They are responsible for the survival of the group, so the tank should always get the last say so in how to run a dungeon rather his pug likes it or not. Tanks are already stressed out enough by their jobs. If they don’t want to honor one of your requests, please stop demanding that they play the way you want them to. They are not obligated to help you do anything.

Eventually I got fed up and told him I refused to heal him

The exact same thing happened to me as well. Halfway through Brayflox I get blackmailed with no heals by my pug. Apparently some noob on their FC wanted to complete their Infantry set. After putting up with their harassment we get to the third boss fight. I tanked Aiatar so that I was right outside the lockout zone while the boss was inside of the lockout line. I get myself locked out and watch as my entire team gets curb stumped by Aiatar. That’s how tanks should deal with these kind of people, they are annoying to no end.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

They are responsible for the survival of the group, so the tank should always get the last say so in how to run a dungeon rather his pug likes it or not.

Yeah. . . I offered to help 2 FC mates run Brayflox HM (I don't like running it, and since I'm not trying to get an Animus/Novus weapon, I have no need to speed run it), and upon entering, I - the tank - told the one random person with us "FYI, this won't be a speed run.". . . He proceeds to have a problem with it and say "this dungeon is for speed-running" and "you're a troll". I respond with, "If you wanted to SR, I understand and no hard feelings if you want to leave, but I'm NOT going to speed run this."

After getting into it with the 1 out of 4 party members who actually WANTED to speed run, it got so bothersome that I myself decided to leave. And remember, I was the tank this time.

. . .So what was that part about the tank controlling the pace of the run? Because clearly, that didn't seem to fly. And to be honest, I wouldn't expect it to. That pretty much played out like I thought it would.

Also, I'm calling BS on the "Tanks are already stressed out about their jobs". First off, if tanking stresses someone out, they probably shouldn't be a tank. Hell, if playing a game stresses you out, then you're simply forgetting the entire reason people play games - to have FUN. To kill the rebuttal now: I started as a tank. It got boring fast. I DPS and heal, and find it more fun. More engaging. I'll still tank every now and then, and I personally throw myself at harder content, so don't assume fun = "he must be a casual". Not in the least.

Beyond that, and ESPECIALLY since I am/was a tank, I challenge this sense of grandeur and near-dictatorship some tanks have. I said it before and I'll say it again: Shields, axes, and armor don't make a tank. The mindset to protect your TEAM, mitigate threats, and adapt to the situation is what makes a tank.

You may lead, but any leader that disregards his team in favor of his own whims or thinks himself greater than the whole won't be a leader or keep a team very long.

[Poringing]

A lot of misconceptions regarding party dynamics found in this thread; let's clear this up:

Tank
Has near total control regarding maximum pace of the party, but very little control over minimum pace of the party.
The tank decides whether this will be a speed run or not, and how extreme the speed run is.
However, the tank's damage output is low, usually <1/6 a good party's total output.

Healer
Has most of the control regarding minimum pace of the party, and also some control over the maximum pace of the party.
If the healer does put out damage, this will be a fast run, regardless of the other party members. (Note: Since dungeons are designed with 0 healer damage output, healer's damage output is very significant when others aren't doing a lot of damage)
Also, a lot of content just cannot be done without a co-operative healer. On the other hand, a geared and experienced healer can cover for the tank for all 4-man content.

DPS
Has some control over both maximum and minumum pace of the party.
Even if both the attackers are very good at what they do, they are limited by the tank actually deciding to speed run or not; and if they are not that good, an attacking healer can sort of cover for them.

It's pretty obvious who has the most control over the party here: The healer. Seriously, they can hold the party hostage anytime. It will be completely impossible to do anything if there are no other casters in the party (BLM and SMN).

So, why are tanks given the role to lead the party? Respect. Simple as that. Everyone's answer to this thread can be boiled down to this, "Do you respect the tradition that dictates tanks lead?"

Personally:
I always run healer for low level roulettes: Control minimum pace.
While I always get into a party of 2 (preferably tank and healer) for high level roulettes. Fun fact: By running high level roulettes in a party of 2 (or 3), you have absolute control over the party (you want to /manderville for a full minute after every successful kill, you got it). Just fire the vote kick first and you'll definately have your way (in a group of 3, you can even torture all the people who joined in-progress). Pretty disturbing, huh?